Best political system for Dharma

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Tiago Simões
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Re: Best political system for Dharma

Post by Tiago Simões »

Grigoris wrote: Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:44 amWe should have gratitude towards the individuals, not towards their position, another person in the same position may use their power and influence to destroy the Dharma. Don't confound the actions of the individual with their position. ie Don't fall prey to the "politicians syllogism".
I agree, but the same person might not have had the same influence if not for his/her position.
DGA
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Re: Best political system for Dharma

Post by DGA »

Diderot wrote:Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the guts of the last priest
Sure, call it hyperbole, but the principle is sound. How?

I'm for a political system that seeks the well-being of all its citizens and all other forms of life on which they depend. I'm against a political system that is based on exploitation and wrapped up in make-believe about monarchy and other nonsense. I don't know if there exists an exact term for a political system that would meet these criteria.
Bristollad
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Re: Best political system for Dharma

Post by Bristollad »

A system that avoids the extremes of authoritarianism because whilst the present despot may be a chakravartin, their offspring or chosen successors may be a Stalin or Prince John (Lackland). At this time only democracy has the checks and balances to avoid the worst extremes I think.
The antidote—to be free from the suffering of samsara—you need to be free from delusion and karma; you need to be free from ignorance, the root of samsara. So you need to meditate on emptiness. That is what you need. Lama Zopa Rinpoche
Malcolm
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Re: Best political system for Dharma

Post by Malcolm »

DGA wrote: Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:46 pm I don't know if there exists an exact term for a political system that would meet these criteria.
Equal measures of Libertarian Municipalism and Deep Ecology.
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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Best political system for Dharma

Post by PuerAzaelis »

tiagolps wrote: Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:30 am ... which political system allows for Dharma to flourish more?
= "Which symptoms would you like to accompany your demise?"

None of the above.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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Tiago Simões
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Re: Best political system for Dharma

Post by Tiago Simões »

DGA wrote: Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:46 pm
Diderot wrote:Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the guts of the last priest
Sure, call it hyperbole, but the principle is sound.
The question is, would that be true freedom?


Guys the question isn't "which political system is better?”
It's "which political system as been kinder to Buddhadharma throughout history?".

I'll continue to say that it has been Monarchy. Samsara's a risky place, every political system comes with its risks.
Last edited by Tiago Simões on Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Malcolm
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Re: Best political system for Dharma

Post by Malcolm »

tiagolps wrote: Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:49 pm
DGA wrote: Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:46 pm
Diderot wrote:Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the guts of the last priest
Sure, call it hyperbole, but the principle is sound.
The question is, would that be true freedom?


Guys the question isn't "which political system is better?”
It's "which political system as been kinder to Buddhadharma throughout history?".

I'll continue to say that it has been Monarchy.
Your question actually is "Best political system for Dharma" with no qualifications.

And I still say that since the fortunes of Dharma when connected to the fortunes of kings decline when the fortune of this or that king declines, I'll pick modern Democracy, since it is predicated on separation of church and state.

For example, China, 843. The Taoist emperor of China, Wuzong ruthlessly destroyed 4600 Buddhist monasteries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Ant ... ersecution

Langdarma was doubtlessly influenced by this guys move to eliminate the tax free status of Monasteries in Tibet and was assassinated for his trouble.

Also, various kings in Southeast Asia suppressed Mahāyāna and Vajrayāna.
Tiago Simões
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Re: Best political system for Dharma

Post by Tiago Simões »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:18 pm
And I still say that since the fortunes of Dharma when connected to the fortunes of kings decline when the fortune of this or that king declines, I'll pick modern Democracy, since it is predicated on separation of church and state.
I agree, there have been kings who have persecuted Buddhism, and Monarchy is far from an ideal system nowadays.

But modern democracy really hasn't done much for Buddhism, nor does it care much for it. There are no Patrons of Buddhism in democracy. Modern democracy is very much about saving face nowadays anyway and Political parties are BS.

I don't oppose Democracy, I just think it receives more credit than it deserves.
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Re: Best political system for Dharma

Post by Malcolm »

tiagolps wrote: Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:45 pm
But modern democracy really hasn't done much for Buddhism...
Seriously, are you kidding? In the US and Europe, one can experience more or less every form of Buddhism there is. This is a directly result of Democratic institutions.
Tiago Simões
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Re: Best political system for Dharma

Post by Tiago Simões »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:47 pm
tiagolps wrote: Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:45 pm
But modern democracy really hasn't done much for Buddhism...
Seriously, are you kidding? In the US and Europe, one can experience more or less every form of Buddhism there is. This is a directly result of Democratic institutions.
Well it's more of a result of immigration... Like I said before, we can't really know for sure in what form religious freedom would exist in Europe if it were less democratic today. The Russian Monarchy is a good example.
emaho
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Re: Best political system for Dharma

Post by emaho »

tiagolps wrote: Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:45 pmBut modern democracy really hasn't done much for Buddhism, nor does it care much for it.
IMO that's a good thing. I wouldn't want it any other way. I think in western European countries we're enjoying the best possible situation. We're enjoying freedom of religion, freedom of science, logic, philosophy etc. Sure, for those of us who wish to dedicate their lives to Dharma practice it can be difficult to get along financially. But if the state would interfere and sponsor monasteries and scholarships etc that would also lead to an increase of hypocrisy and power abuse. Frankly I think we already have more than enough of those already. If there's one thing the history of religion and religious institutions has shown more than clearly it is that the more power and money are involved in religious affairs, the faster that religion will go down the drain.
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Malcolm
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Re: Best political system for Dharma

Post by Malcolm »

tiagolps wrote: Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:54 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:47 pm
tiagolps wrote: Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:45 pm
But modern democracy really hasn't done much for Buddhism...
Seriously, are you kidding? In the US and Europe, one can experience more or less every form of Buddhism there is. This is a directly result of Democratic institutions.
Well it's more of a result of immigration... Like I said before, we can't really know for sure in what form religious freedom would exist in Europe if it were less democratic. The Russian Monarchy is a good example.
Hahaha, really, man — listen to yourself, "We can't really know for sure in what form religious freedom would exist in Europe if it were less democratic," we can know for sure. There would be less religious freedom.

And the diversity of Buddhism in the West is not a product of immigration. It is a product of westerners going to Asia and returning with Buddhist traditions, sometimes with monks in tow.
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Re: Best political system for Dharma

Post by Tiago Simões »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:02 pm Hahaha, really, man — listen to yourself, "We can't really know for sure in what form religious freedom would exist in Europe if it were less democratic," we can know for sure. There would be less religious freedom.

And the diversity of Buddhism in the West is not a product of immigration. It is a product of westerners going to Asia and returning with Buddhist traditions, sometimes with monks in tow.
Liechtenstein is an example of a less democratic country in Europe with religious freedom.
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Re: Best political system for Dharma

Post by Malcolm »

tiagolps wrote: Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:12 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:02 pm Hahaha, really, man — listen to yourself, "We can't really know for sure in what form religious freedom would exist in Europe if it were less democratic," we can know for sure. There would be less religious freedom.

And the diversity of Buddhism in the West is not a product of immigration. It is a product of westerners going to Asia and returning with Buddhist traditions, sometimes with monks in tow.
Liechtenstein is an example of a less democratic country in Europe with religious freedom.

Lichtenstein is a state where they practice Direct Democracy.
Tiago Simões
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Re: Best political system for Dharma

Post by Tiago Simões »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:20 pm
tiagolps wrote: Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:12 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:02 pm Hahaha, really, man — listen to yourself, "We can't really know for sure in what form religious freedom would exist in Europe if it were less democratic," we can know for sure. There would be less religious freedom.

And the diversity of Buddhism in the West is not a product of immigration. It is a product of westerners going to Asia and returning with Buddhist traditions, sometimes with monks in tow.
Liechtenstein is an example of a less democratic country in Europe with religious freedom.

Lichtenstein is a state where they practice Direct Democracy.
But the Monarch has significant power.
The Prince of Liechtenstein has broad powers, which include the appointment of judges, the dismissal of ministers or government, veto power, and the calling of referenda. The Liechtenstein constitutional referendum, 2003 was a proposal put forth by reigning Prince Hans-Adam II to revise parts of the Constitution of Liechtenstein, on the one hand expanding the monarch's power with the authority to veto legislation, while on the other hand securing for the citizenry the option to abolish the monarchy by vote at any time without being subject to princely veto. The right of the parishes that make up the principality to secede was simultaneously recognised.
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Re: Best political system for Dharma

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

You guys are in the Lounge so it is ok, but just to be clear you're talking about samsara.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
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Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Best political system for Dharma

Post by Nemo »


"Freedom without socialism is privilege & injustice,
And socialism without freedom is slavery & brutality."
- Mikhail Bakunin
boda
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Re: Best political system for Dharma

Post by boda »

tiagolps wrote: Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:45 pm There are no Patrons of Buddhism in democracy.
How much patronage does Buddhism require?

I think it has renunciate ethic that other religions may lack, so it may be somewhat antithetical to require lavish cathedrals or whatever.
Malcolm
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Re: Best political system for Dharma

Post by Malcolm »

Nemo wrote: Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:27 pm
"Freedom without socialism is privilege & injustice,
And socialism without freedom is slavery & brutality."
- Mikhail Bakunin
Yes, old Bookchin, the architect of Libertarian Municipalism. His critique of Socialism/communism is spot on.
Tiago Simões
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Re: Best political system for Dharma

Post by Tiago Simões »

boda wrote: Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:19 pm
tiagolps wrote: Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:45 pm There are no Patrons of Buddhism in democracy.
How much patronage does Buddhism require?

I think it has renunciate ethic that other religions may lack, so it may be somewhat antithetical to require lavish cathedrals or whatever.
Patronage isn't about building fancy temples only. Monarchs were also patrons of translation projects.
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