Money, markets and power in different economic systems

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Malcolm
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Money, markets and power in different economic systems

Post by Malcolm »

Dan74 wrote: Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:49 pm No Great Depression, no Hitler.

No nascent jingoism, no Hitler.

No disarray among other parties, no Hitler.
Because of the Versailles Treaty, Germany was forced to pay reparations. This led to out of control inflation in Germany during the Weimar Republic. Germany reneged on its repayments, which in turn caused British and French banks to panic. Unable to meet their obligation to American Banks (from which they had borrowed heavily in the War), this caused the American stock market collapse in 1929. Emboldened by the incompetence of Weimar Republic, as well as the inability of the other parties to muster a solid response to the economic climate of Germany, in this fractured political and economic environment the Nazis skated into Parliament by the skin of their teeth. The rest is history, and the cause of it all is the humiliation Germans felt because of the Versailles Treaty. The Great Depression, in other words, was a direct consequence of the Versailles treaty. At least, this is what I learned at Harvard.
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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

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Malcolm wrote: Sat Oct 28, 2017 5:41 pm
Dan74 wrote: Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:49 pm No Great Depression, no Hitler.

No nascent jingoism, no Hitler.

No disarray among other parties, no Hitler.
Because of the Versailles Treaty, Germany was forced to pay reparations. This led to out of control inflation in Germany during the Weimar Republic. Germany reneged on its repayments, which in turn caused British and French banks to panic. Unable to meet their obligation to American Banks (from which they had borrowed heavily in the War), this caused the American stock market collapse in 1929. Emboldened by the incompetence of Weimar Republic, as well as the inability of the other parties to muster a solid response to the economic climate of Germany, in this fractured political and economic environment the Nazis skated into Parliament by the skin of their teeth. The rest is history, and the cause of it all is the humiliation Germans felt because of the Versailles Treaty. The Great Depression, in other words, was a direct consequence of the Versailles treaty. At least, this is what I learned at Harvard.
Malcolm, I don't suppose there's a historian of Europe in the early 20th Century here, but a cursory search reveals the complex network of factors that experts debate to this very day. You appear to have resolved all this in one fell swoop with a few lines of one dimensional dynamics. C'mon, really.

wiki, as usual provides a start:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of ... Depression

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War ... rinflation

But again, there's no point for to two non-specialists to debate something we no so little about. I tried to make a point about the mind, which is a bit closer to what we are on about in this place, ie the Dharma. I think it'll be far more productive to discuss that.
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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Malcolm »

Dan74 wrote: Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:28 pm You appear to have resolved all this in one fell swoop with a few lines of one dimensional dynamics.
Yes. All you have to do is follow the money.
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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Yavana »

[Mod note: some off-topic stuff edited out.]
...
Malcolm wrote: Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:37 pmAll you have to do is follow the money
... I notice that you often reduce the motivation of this or that issue or trend to money.

Money is an abstraction of resources and a means for power where the rule of law exists. However, ... money and power can be decoupled. Money is an abstraction of resources. Power is derived from violence. The two are often used to pursue each as an end in itself as a way of perpetuating and growing each, but ultimately they are used to shape life in the way we wish. They enable us to achieve our aims, but are not ultimately aims in themselves.

The Nazis arose because someone was able to rouse the masses on an emotional level through their shared values at a time when collective hardship was impossible to avoid. The root cause was the underlying values of the German masses. The economic issues were just an excuse to finally act on them.

The same is true for ISIS.
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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

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Malcolm wrote: Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:37 pm
Dan74 wrote: Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:28 pm You appear to have resolved all this in one fell swoop with a few lines of one dimensional dynamics.
Yes. All you have to do is follow the money.
Aye, that is usually the soundest way to compass economic collapse. And in this case the trail does have a well-worn and wide path to Versailles, and though it maps much of the problems and resulting disaster in Germany it does not entirely explain the worldwide Great Depression. For instance in the US, the widespread use by people and institutions of margin loans with virtually no collateral was an enormous factor in the market's collapse since they depended on an ever-upward stock index and had no capacity to even weather a small downturn let alone a large one. One might say that, a la Popper, the market was rigged with an unlimited tolerance for unsecured debt and thus it had to collapse.

I like to recommend Anthony Trollope's The Way We Live Now for a good read on following the money and what its actual trail is & who is making it.

As far as tolerance of unlimited free speech, even in the US there are limits to the First Amendment though they appear to be unable to handle the ongoing problems. Europe in general has more limits on what can be said publicly and right now it seems that civil law way of looking at things is, pardon the pun, trumping our common law way of being enslaved to precedents that seem to have lost meaning in the current vicious climate.
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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Malcolm »

The Cicada wrote: Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:27 pm [Mod note: some off-topic stuff edited out.]
...
Malcolm wrote: Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:37 pmAll you have to do is follow the money
... I notice that you often reduce the motivation of this or that issue or trend to money.

Money is an abstraction of resources and a means for power where the rule of law exists. However, ... money and power can be decoupled.
Not really.
Money is an abstraction of resources. Power is derived from violence. The two are often used to pursue each as an end in itself as a way of perpetuating and growing each, but ultimately they are used to shape life in the way we wish. They enable us to achieve our aims, but are not ultimately aims in themselves.
Money is how markets function, power is how markets are maintained, expanded, and protected.
The Nazis arose because someone was able to rouse the masses on an emotional level through their shared values at a time when collective hardship was impossible to avoid. The root cause was the underlying values of the German masses. The economic issues were just an excuse to finally act on them.
Well, I don't think this argument works. Most Germans in 1933 were not Nazis, and were not allied with Nazis. The Nazis took power because they were more belligerent, more violent, and more organized in the Catholic parts of Germany which were their stronghold. The majority of Germans at that time were either centrists or leftists, and were unable to collaborate with each other to prevent a Nazi takeover. The centrists were basically afraid of the street violence between the right and the left, and the left was distracted by their internationalist aims which were distrusted by centrists. So the centrists by default wound up backing the Nazis.

The same thing seems to happening in the USA.

However, the one thing the Nazis and the Left in those days shared was skepticism about capitalism. Why? Because true capitalism requires some level of democracy to preserve the autonomy of markets. Authoritarian governments on the right and the left always restrict markets as their first order of business. This is the main reason why capitalism does not function well in authoritarian countries. So again, follow the money.

The same is true for ISIS.
That is one point of view.
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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

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Malcolm wrote: Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:11 pmHowever, the one thing the Nazis and the Left in those days shared was skepticism about capitalism. Why? Because true capitalism requires some level of democracy to preserve the autonomy of markets. Authoritarian governments on the right and the left always restrict markets as their first order of business. This is the main reason why capitalism does not function well in authoritarian countries. So again, follow the money.
The Nazi skepticism about capitalism did not last very long. The socialist ewing of the Nazi party was purged pretty early in the piece. Some of Germany's biggest and most powerful corporations came straight out the Reich: IG Farben, VW, etc...

Capitalism functions just fine under right wing regimes. Refer to Argentina, for example. Capitalists love Nazis because Nazis hate leftists and it is leftists that rile up the proletarian asking for wealth distribution, workers rights, etc...

Here in Greece, for example, shipping tycoons use neo-Nazi goon squads to attack the leftists organising the dock workers.

The Greek center-right New Democracy party used neo-Nazis (alongside the state police force) to put down the anti-monetarist movement protests so that they could push through the reforms that the IMF and Troika wanted to impose.

Capitalists (and Capitalism) thrives under authoritarian regimes. Refer also to China as a shining example.

Authoritarian governments restrict the production and sale of some goods, but open and protect other very lucrative markets. Let us also not forget the extent of the black market (and the profit it produces) in authoritarian regimes. Consider, for example, the amount of money made by criminal elements during the Prohibition.
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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Malcolm »

Grigoris wrote: Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:48 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:11 pmHowever, the one thing the Nazis and the Left in those days shared was skepticism about capitalism. Why? Because true capitalism requires some level of democracy to preserve the autonomy of markets. Authoritarian governments on the right and the left always restrict markets as their first order of business. This is the main reason why capitalism does not function well in authoritarian countries. So again, follow the money.
The Nazi skepticism about capitalism did not last very long. The socialist ewing of the Nazi party was purged pretty early in the piece. Some of Germany's biggest and most powerful corporations came straight out the Reich: IG Farben, VW, etc...
These companies were not allowed to business just as they wished. They were subordinated to the wishes of the regime.
Capitalism functions just fine under right wing regimes. Refer to Argentina, for example. Capitalists love Nazis because Nazis hate leftists and it is leftists that rile up the proletarian asking for wealth distribution, workers rights, etc...
During the 1920 and '30's, it is true that many people who were opposed to the workers movement thought they would benefit more from backing fascists, but they were quite wrong in every respect.
Here in Greece, for example, shipping tycoons use neo-Nazi goon squads to attack the leftists organising the dock workers.
Yes, business using fascist thugs has a long history. It does not however mean they do terribly well under fascist regimes.

The Greek center-right New Democracy party used neo-Nazis (alongside the state police force) to put down the anti-monetarist movement protests so that they could push through the reforms that the IMF and Troika wanted to impose.
Again, the economy of Greece is in shambles.
Capitalists (and Capitalism) thrives under authoritarian regimes. Refer also to China as a shining example.
China is not a capitalist society (I've been there several times). There are strict limitations on markets. The reason why China is pushing consumerism on its own citizens is that they are manufacturing more things than external markets can absorb.

Authoritarian governments restrict the production and sale of some goods, but open and protect other very lucrative markets. Let us also not forget the extent of the black market (and the profit it produces) in authoritarian regimes. Consider, for example, the amount of money made by criminal elements during the Prohibition.
This is not a free market. True capitalism requires free markets and freedom of information. When one does not have these, markets become distorted and in the end, this causes economic collapse.

Mind you, I am not suggesting that capitalism is the end all be all, it isn't. However, no one has come up with a better way to deliver goods and services to people yet that has worked out in practice on the broad international scale we see. In general, one of the main reasons for the failure of so many US attempts to open markets around the world is precisely due to the fact that "free markets" do not function well in authoritarian regimes. This is why the US always ties democracy to capitalism, and in those countries where democracy fails, capitalism demonstrably fails as well in favor of the kind of mercantile economies we see in China, etc.

Actually, one of the interesting things about Trumpism is its fundamentally anti-capitalist messaging. "Economic nationalism" cripples free-market capitalism.
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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by pothigai »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:04 pm
Grigoris wrote: Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:48 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:11 pmHowever, the one thing the Nazis and the Left in those days shared was skepticism about capitalism. Why? Because true capitalism requires some level of democracy to preserve the autonomy of markets. Authoritarian governments on the right and the left always restrict markets as their first order of business. This is the main reason why capitalism does not function well in authoritarian countries. So again, follow the money.
The Nazi skepticism about capitalism did not last very long. The socialist ewing of the Nazi party was purged pretty early in the piece. Some of Germany's biggest and most powerful corporations came straight out the Reich: IG Farben, VW, etc...
These companies were not allowed to business just as they wished. They were subordinated to the wishes of the regime.
Capitalism functions just fine under right wing regimes. Refer to Argentina, for example. Capitalists love Nazis because Nazis hate leftists and it is leftists that rile up the proletarian asking for wealth distribution, workers rights, etc...
During the 1920 and '30's, it is true that many people who were opposed to the workers movement thought they would benefit more from backing fascists, but they were quite wrong in every respect.
Here in Greece, for example, shipping tycoons use neo-Nazi goon squads to attack the leftists organising the dock workers.
Yes, business using fascist thugs has a long history. It does not however mean they do terribly well under fascist regimes.

The Greek center-right New Democracy party used neo-Nazis (alongside the state police force) to put down the anti-monetarist movement protests so that they could push through the reforms that the IMF and Troika wanted to impose.
Again, the economy of Greece is in shambles.
Capitalists (and Capitalism) thrives under authoritarian regimes. Refer also to China as a shining example.
China is not a capitalist society (I've been there several times). There are strict limitations on markets. The reason why China is pushing consumerism on its own citizens is that they are manufacturing more things than external markets can absorb.

Authoritarian governments restrict the production and sale of some goods, but open and protect other very lucrative markets. Let us also not forget the extent of the black market (and the profit it produces) in authoritarian regimes. Consider, for example, the amount of money made by criminal elements during the Prohibition.
This is not a free market. True capitalism requires free markets and freedom of information. When one does not have these, markets become distorted and in the end, this causes economic collapse.

Mind you, I am not suggesting that capitalism is the end all be all, it isn't. However, no one has come up with a better way to deliver goods and services to people yet that has worked out in practice on the broad international scale we see. In general, one of the main reasons for the failure of so many US attempts to open markets around the world is precisely due to the fact that "free markets" do not function well in authoritarian regimes. This is why the US always ties democracy to capitalism, and in those countries where democracy fails, capitalism demonstrably fails as well in favor of the kind of mercantile economies we see in China, etc.

Actually, one of the interesting things about Trumpism is its fundamentally anti-capitalist messaging. "Economic nationalism" cripples free-market capitalism.
The defining characteristic of capitalism is the structuring of society around production for market exchange. This form of economic life has manifested itself in many different ways; laissez faire, keynsianism, mercantilism, etc, but they are all capitalism, they all share this core of production for market exchange.

Defining capitalism as a completely free market, free from any sort of government intervention, isn't an entirely useful definition, since no such economic system has ever really existed, except in the minds of people like Hayek and Friedman (both of whom didn't seem to have any qualms about supporting authoritarian governments).
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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Malcolm »

pothigai wrote: Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:59 am
The defining characteristic of capitalism is the structuring of society around production for market exchange. This form of economic life has manifested itself in many different ways; laissez faire, keynsianism, mercantilism, etc, but they are all capitalism, they all share this core of production for market exchange.
That rather depends on whose definition of capitalism one using. Adam Smith for example, was critical of mercantilism in toto. This is one of the reasons why he wrote Wealth of Nations. Capitalism ought not be confused with capital accumulation.
Defining capitalism as a completely free market, free from any sort of government intervention, isn't an entirely useful definition, since no such economic system has ever really existed,
I never suggested this. What I suggested in repsponse to Cicada's observation, is that State power exists to protect markets. The disposition or type of this or that market depends largely on whether that state is committed to democracy or not.
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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

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Malcolm wrote: Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:04 pmThese companies were not allowed to business just as they wished. They were subordinated to the wishes of the regime.
And? They didn't make profits? They were not allowed to exploit their employees?
During the 1920 and '30's, it is true that many people who were opposed to the workers movement thought they would benefit more from backing fascists, but they were quite wrong in every respect.
The Argentinian economic experiment was not during the 20's and 30's.
Again, the economy of Greece is in shambles.
Of course it is, nobody is denying that. Using neo-Nazis to push through monetarist and free market policies hasn't helped in the slightest either. Quite the opposite.
China is not a capitalist society (I've been there several times).
Yes it is. It is a form of state capitalism. There is more than one type of capitalism out there. The "free-market" variety is not the only one.
This is not a free market. True capitalism requires free markets and freedom of information. When one does not have these, markets become distorted and in the end, this causes economic collapse.
No it doesn't. Capitalist economies collapse because of the inherent flaws in the capitalist system. Please refer to Marx.
However, no one has come up with a better way to deliver goods and services to people...
And we all know how important goods and services are, don't we kiddies???!!!
In general, one of the main reasons for the failure of so many US attempts to open markets around the world is precisely due to the fact that "free markets" do not function well in authoritarian regimes.
Uuuuummmmm... No. I think you will find that "foreign" resistance to the US "opening up their markets" has to do with the fact that not everybody wants to become a producer of cheap goods for overfed walmart addicts. US imperialism includes economic, not just military, domination.
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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

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Adam Smith hated the British East India Company and heavily criticized joint stock corporations. He would be appalled by people using his work to defend megacorporations today.
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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Yavana »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:11 pm [
The Nazis arose because someone was able to rouse the masses on an emotional level through their shared values at a time when collective hardship was impossible to avoid. The root cause was the underlying values of the German masses. The economic issues were just an excuse to finally act on them.
Well, I don't think this argument works. Most Germans in 1933 were not Nazis, and were not allied with Nazis. The Nazis took power because they were more belligerent, more violent, and more organized in the Catholic parts of Germany which were their stronghold. The majority of Germans at that time were either centrists or leftists, and were unable to collaborate with each other to prevent a Nazi takeover. The centrists were basically afraid of the street violence between the right and the left, and the left was distracted by their internationalist aims which were distrusted by centrists. So the centrists by default wound up backing the Nazis.

The same thing seems to happening in the USA.

However, the one thing the Nazis and the Left in those days shared was skepticism about capitalism. Why? Because true capitalism requires some level of democracy to preserve the autonomy of markets. Authoritarian governments on the right and the left always restrict markets as their first order of business. This is the main reason why capitalism does not function well in authoritarian countries. So again, follow the money.
Please excuse me if I've misunderstood you, but it seems as though you're saying that the Nazis, an authoritarian regime, distrusted democracy so much that they instituted a form of government that was less efficient than democracy at enabling the generation of wealth... because they were after money? I understand your argument about capitalism floundering in authoritarian systems where power trumps resources, where the entitlement of an individual to control certain resources can be interrupted by threats of violence enacted by the fiat of the authoritarian system or by some technically ( :quoteunquote: ) illegitimate power brokers that such systems breed at their fringes, but I'm not seeing how choosing an authoritarian government over a capitalism enabling democracy is about putting money first. It seems a bit similar to claiming that the they rejected Jewish scientists like Einstein because they valued scientific advancement above all else. They did seem to be bent on distributing resources more equally than capitalism does, if that's what you mean?

Still, I think intangible values about what to do with our time in this world factor into all of this. The end of slavery in the West could be reduced, quintessentially, to people acting on "warm, fuzzy feelings" and trying to make the vision of life those feelings engendered real.The Nazis were all caught up in the idea of a heroic, Darwinistic utopia that could be grasped if only "the money changers" and other supposedly less noble elements were eliminated. The Nazis and the Holocaust were the culmination of many racial ideologies that had been floating around Europe ever since Europeans discovered that they were technologically superior to, and had better social cohesion than, the rest of the world at the time. They drew their charismatic power from an underlying feeling among the people that their kind were a gifted strain of living beings drawn upwards by the universal forces of evolution and destined to inherit the Earth—and maybe the cosmos. Without that, they would have just been regular fascists in lederhosen.

I mean, I've been broke before but I've never opted to beat up a Jewish guy over getting a job. Emnity towards the Jews is not part of my worldview. Am I missing something?
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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Malcolm »

Grigoris wrote: Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:35 am
Malcolm wrote: Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:04 pmThese companies were not allowed to business just as they wished. They were subordinated to the wishes of the regime.
And? They didn't make profits? They were not allowed to exploit their employees?
Profit does not equal capitalism.
During the 1920 and '30's, it is true that many people who were opposed to the workers movement thought they would benefit more from backing fascists, but they were quite wrong in every respect.
The Argentinian economic experiment was not during the 20's and 30's.
It failed.
Again, the economy of Greece is in shambles.
Of course it is, nobody is denying that. Using neo-Nazis to push through monetarist and free market policies hasn't helped in the slightest either. Quite the opposite.
Greece is one of the losers in the EU common market.

China is not a capitalist society (I've been there several times).
Yes it is. It is a form of state capitalism. There is more than one type of capitalism out there. The "free-market" variety is not the only one.
This is a typical way to refer to states that want to compete in international capital markets, who themselves are not willing to allow their citizens to participate in those same markets. But in reality, China has a mercantile economy.
This is not a free market. True capitalism requires free markets and freedom of information. When one does not have these, markets become distorted and in the end, this causes economic collapse.
No it doesn't. Capitalist economies collapse because of the inherent flaws in the capitalist system. Please refer to Marx.
Marx regarded capitalism as progressive.

However, no one has come up with a better way to deliver goods and services to people...
And we all know how important goods and services are, don't we kiddies???!!!
Try living a for week without them.

In general, one of the main reasons for the failure of so many US attempts to open markets around the world is precisely due to the fact that "free markets" do not function well in authoritarian regimes.
Uuuuummmmm... No. I think you will find that "foreign" resistance to the US "opening up their markets" has to do with the fact that not everybody wants to become a producer of cheap goods for overfed walmart addicts. US imperialism includes economic, not just military, domination.
The standard of living for Chinese people has markedly increased under the Chinese policies that allow Chinese firms to manufacture goods for the US market. The same is true in Vietnam, etc. This has happened because these countries have embraced market economics, albeit, not fully.

At base, what we have are two functions related to the formation of states: power and markets. All states are created to protect markets. It is the only reason they have for existence. This is very clearly pointed out in Buddhists sūtras.

One can fantasize all one wants about stateless societies, and so on, but in fact as long as there are markets, there will be states. The only way to be rid of states is to be rid of markets. That will never happen.
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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Grigoris »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:16 pmIt failed.
Capitalism always fails.
Marx regarded capitalism as progressive.
Insofar as it is a necessary stepping stone to communism, not as an end in itself.
Try living a for week without them.
Somehow I think I can live quite happily without 99% of the goods and services offered by capitalism.
One can fantasize all one wants about stateless societies, and so on, but in fact as long as there are markets, there will be states. The only way to be rid of states is to be rid of markets. That will never happen.
If I remember correctly stateless markets is exactly what free-market capitalists want. This will, of course, never happen, because without the repressive functions of the state, capitalism would never survive.
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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Malcolm »

Grigoris wrote: Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:06 pm Capitalism always fails.
Socialism's track record shows that it fails worse.
Insofar as it is a necessary stepping stone to communism, not as an end in itself.
He was right about capitalism being progressive. He was wrong about socialism.
Somehow I think I can live quite happily without 99% of the goods and services offered by capitalism.
You would like to think so, but the collapse of capitalism will initiate a thousand years of barbarism.

"Free market" capitalists are also fantasists, just like socialists. They do not understand the relationship between power and markets. Most people don't.
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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Grigoris »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:38 pmSocialism's track record shows that it fails worse.
I disagree, I think it failed in a different way and for different reasons.
He was right about capitalism being progressive. He was wrong about socialism.
By socialism you mean what exactly? Like there is more than one type of capitalism, there is also more than one type of socialism.
You would like to think so, but the collapse of capitalism will initiate a thousand years of barbarism.
As far as I am concerned, capitalism is barbarism.
"Free market" capitalists are also fantasists, just like socialists. They do not understand the relationship between power and markets. Most people don't.
You think "socialists" (still waiting on your defintion) do not understand the relationship between power and market?
Last edited by Grigoris on Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Malcolm »

Grigoris wrote: Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:42 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:38 pmSocialism's track record shows that it fails worse.
I disagree, I think it failed in a different way and for different reasons.

He was right about capitalism being progressive. He was wrong about socialism.
By socialism you mean what exactly?
Socialism entails centrally planned economies.
"Free market" capitalists are also fantasists, just like socialists. They do not understand the relationship between power and markets. Most people don't.
You think "socialists" (still waiting on your defintion) do not understand the relationship between power and market?
[/quote]

Yes, in fact I think they don't.
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Grigoris
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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Grigoris »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:06 pmSocialism entails centrally planned economies.
So what about socialist democracies of the Northern European ilk? Are their markets incapable of providing goods and services?
Yes, in fact I think they don't.
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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Malcolm »

Grigoris wrote: Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:40 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:06 pmSocialism entails centrally planned economies.
So what about socialist democracies of the Northern European ilk? Are their markets incapable of providing goods and services?
They are capitalist economies with free markets.

The basic principle of a free market is that consumers need to able to make informed choices. One of the things (even conservative economists used to admit this) is that people cannot make informed choices about is health care, for example. Since people cannot make informed choices about some things, these kinds of things should be strictly regulated, as they are in those countries, and Canada.

But apart from things like healthcare and education, these countries you mention do not really have centrally planned economies. They are "socialist" only in so far as their governments provide social services to everyone. But in reality, they are no more socialist than the New Deal was socialist.
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