Money, markets and power in different economic systems

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Minobu
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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Minobu » Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:29 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:42 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:38 pm
Socialism's track record shows that it fails worse.
I disagree, I think it failed in a different way and for different reasons.
He was right about capitalism being progressive. He was wrong about socialism.
By socialism you mean what exactly? Like there is more than one type of capitalism, there is also more than one type of socialism.
You would like to think so, but the collapse of capitalism will initiate a thousand years of barbarism.
As far as I am concerned, capitalism is barbarism.
"Free market" capitalists are also fantasists, just like socialists. They do not understand the relationship between power and markets. Most people don't.
You think "socialists" (still waiting on your defintion) do not understand the relationship between power and market?
Canada is a socialist country and it works. free health care..
recently the government decided to vastly increase the child benefit payments...like insanely...

if you have a kid 18 and under and are low income you get 650.00 a month per kid tax free..
i know some people that never work and have 10 to 12 kids.Prime minister brags about bringing them out of poverty...so like yeah besides their welfare cheque of about 2500.00 a month they now get additional 78 thousand a year..

we are very social...lol...
and rich enough to afford it even though we are only 37 million people.

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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Malcolm » Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:54 pm

Minobu wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:29 pm

Canada is a socialist country and it works. free health care..
No, it isn't.
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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Minobu » Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:31 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:54 pm
Minobu wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:29 pm

Canada is a socialist country and it works. free health care..
No, it isn't.
well i dunno Malcolm but we consider ourselves socialist.
we are a Constitutional Monarchy .

We are not communist...but have a huge socialist safety net.
recently we started to tax the rich more than before and less tax on the middle class.
Droves of Haitians and various immigrants terrified of Trump are coming over our borders...they immediately get social assistance and free health care and housing.

Asylum seekers fleeing Trump

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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by DGA » Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:37 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:54 pm
Minobu wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:29 pm

Canada is a socialist country and it works. free health care..
No, it isn't.
For the record, Canada’s social Democratic Party, the NDP, has never formed a federal government.

Canada is a petro state like Venezuela. Same population roughly too. My point is that it has never even formed a socialist agenda at the legislative level, unlike Venezuela.

Obama defeated Venezuela by allowing fracking in the US to bring oil prices down globally. Screwed the Russians and Canadians too...

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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by DGA » Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:39 am

Minobu wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:31 am
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:54 pm
Minobu wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:29 pm

Canada is a socialist country and it works. free health care..
No, it isn't.
well i dunno Malcolm but we consider ourselves socialist.
we are a Constitutional Monarchy .

We are not communist...but have a huge socialist safety net.
recently we started to tax the rich more than before and less tax on the middle class.
Droves of Haitians and various immigrants terrified of Trump are coming over our borders...they immediately get social assistance and free health care and housing.

Asylum seekers fleeing Trump
I don’t think the Tories consider Canada a socialist nation. Do they?

How is a constitutional monarchy consistent with socialist governance? I asked a Red Tory this once and all I got was a lot of attitude, no conherent thought.

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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by The Cicada » Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:44 am

Minobu wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:31 am
Droves of Haitians and various immigrants terrified of Trump are coming over our borders...they immediately get social assistance and free health care and housing.

Asylum seekers fleeing Trump
Good for them. Some of those guys are part of organized crime in Mexico, so it will be interesting to see how Canada's experiment with the "ISIS" treatment goes.

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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by tiagolps » Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:48 am

Last edited by tiagolps on Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:31 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Minobu » Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:49 am

DGA wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:37 am
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:54 pm
Minobu wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:29 pm

Canada is a socialist country and it works. free health care..
No, it isn't.
For the record, Canada’s social Democratic Party, the NDP, has never formed a federal government.

Canada is a petro state like Venezuela. Same population roughly too. My point is that it has never even formed a socialist agenda at the legislative level, unlike Venezuela.

Obama defeated Venezuela by allowing fracking in the US to bring oil prices down globally. Screwed the Russians and Canadians too...
I'm beginning to think like the term Liberal you americans have a weird sense of what socialism is.

i watch a lot of American news and Sunday morning face the nation sort of stuff and socialism to an american is some bad word.

The NDP have enjoyed provincial and municipal governments.

It's been a NDP gripe that so much of what they introduce as ideas become Liberal accomplishments, such as universal health care .
The list is pretty large...

the conservative Party are ass wipes to America. Both Mulroney and Harper immediately enjoyed directorships on american companies after their loss or retirement from politics.

Mulroney help design NAFTA which no other party wanted...he got 8, $250,000.00 a year seats on various American Companies after he retired.

conservatives are sell outs to America..helping make this more of a banana republic than a sovereign nation.

We are serfs ....Canada is but a plantation run by american interests...and yet we do manage to continue in our solistic ways of helping humans to live a better life.

Socialism in Canada is not what you get under some dictatorship...i think you are confused about the term and afraid of it..

the nightmare that people do not want universal health care in the states behooves me...so many mired in poverty and without health care vote against it ...lol..

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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by PuerAzaelis » Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:54 am

This is now officially the weirdest thread on DW.
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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Minobu » Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:58 am

DGA wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:37 am

Canada is a petro state like Venezuela.
and yet i think we are second in gold production.
the northern shield which on a map id the upper large portion of quebec and Ontario is iron ore that needs no mining.
we have so much oil it is debatable whether Saudi Arabia has more...we tend to lower it for some reason.
we used to be the bread basket of the world ...prairie wheat...
We have more diamonds up north that south africa.
beef, poultry, pigs , fish and agriculture is some of the largest in the world.
we have a huge tech sector...

all that and so much more...so a petro state...we survived the price of oil hitting 35 bucks...and adjusted quickly...
Real estate is insane...we are desperate to stop foreign buyers...

we are insanely rich...we a resource rich nature with petro being just a part...we need to get rid of anyway for it's electric cars that the world needs.

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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by CapNCrunch » Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:08 am

I'm beginning to think like the term Liberal you americans have a weird sense of what socialism is
That's the thing with politics - you have the theory and reality. In reality, Canada does have both market and non-market socialist policies. Even though the two countries share a language and many other things, having lived most of my adult life in the US (grew up in Canada and I'm back here) I can def say there are huge differences and that my anecdotal experience is that many Americans think Canada is a socialist country, and they're not wrong. In practice anyway. I would have probably denied this prior to living in the US, but I can totally see that POV now that I've lived both places and seen the way Capitalist ideals are truly embedded in the American psyche.

It's really hard to define or quantify, I'm not a political scientist and I'm still learning my own countries political system as I only returned here in 2007.

I can only give examples - like when I was a kid and played hoops seriously, we played a lot of one-on-one. In Canada, at least when I grew up, the rule was alternation. You scored, other guy got the ball. No way in the US this egalitarian approach would fly - It was possession all the way. You score, you keep the ball and run the table if you can.

Perhaps a trivial example, but it came to mind first and the same sort of principle I saw in operation again and again. It was one of the things I admired and still do about Americans. They are without a doubt generally the most generous people on the planet, but that idea that you earn what you get, is hard-wired.

BC, where I'm from, is SO frickin' liberal that our de facto "conservative" party, is the Liberal party. The NDP is left of the liberals, and conservatives don't even have a chance.

I think that Americans are misunderstood a lot - people make the mistake of conflating American government and policy with the people, and that's a huge mistake. Americans are not passive (like Canadians are generally, especially when it comes to political will) and not only are free to criticize their government, but they are much more apt as a people to take action to see the change through. One of the greatest environmentalists of our generation here in Northern BC, who educated the current generation of stars just passed away - he was an old hippy who came up here, saw the passivity of the people and made it his calling to help canucks organize, with awesome results like saving the Kitelope, the last pristine temperate rain forest in the world.

Don't get me wrong - I'm a proud Canadian as far as that goes, but I gained tremendous respect for our American cousins by living there and experiencing first hand some of the differences between our cultures - and those differences are rooted in strongly held ideals about Capitalism and democracy. We could and do learn a lot by acknowledging and celebrating those things that make our respective countries unique.

This really is probably the weirdest thread I've ever seen on DW, but I wanted to pipe up and make these points because I found the discussion very interesting and wanted to add my perspective - subjective & rambling though it may be.

This whole mixing of religion & politics is a happy hunting ground and if we can keep the discourse civil, is actually one of the more interesting exchanges I've read recently. Carry on, and sorry for the long post.
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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Grigoris » Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:48 am

Minobu wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:49 am
I'm beginning to think like the term Liberal you americans have a weird sense of what socialism is.
It's a hangover from McCarthyism: "Red Under the Bed" and all that complete and utter gibberish... It is also a symptom of having gone so far right, that even Obama looks left wing.
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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by CapNCrunch » Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:19 am

Malcolm said: "No, it isn't." In response to:
Canada is a socialist country and it works. free health care..

I missed that it was Malcolm who said this (consciously at least) prior to my long post about my experience living both in the US and Canada.

I'm sure that this statement is 100% correct, as Dan pointed out, Social Democrats have never risen to power federally or even provincially until recently - and Canadians refer to them as Socialist. The name Social Democrat was probably coined to distinguish between pure socialism as the kind my partner from Russia experienced, and our home-brew here which is the idea of socialist policies within a framework of Democracy. I don't know for sure as I'm much more familiar with the US system.

But our NDP on the far left is considered socialist, if only in local parlance. (I've heard Americans call us socialist many times too tho! :))This is due to the tendency to conflate the term "Socialist" with "Social Democrat" by most Canadians. The confusion here is over semantics.

As M points out, is not the standard definition of socialism, and thus Canada is not, and never has been socialist.
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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by DGA » Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:41 pm

CapNCrunch wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:19 am
Malcolm said: "No, it isn't." In response to:
Canada is a socialist country and it works. free health care..

I missed that it was Malcolm who said this (consciously at least) prior to my long post about my experience living both in the US and Canada.

I'm sure that this statement is 100% correct, as Dan pointed out, Social Democrats have never risen to power federally or even provincially until recently - and Canadians refer to them as Socialist. The name Social Democrat was probably coined to distinguish between pure socialism as the kind my partner from Russia experienced, and our home-brew here which is the idea of socialist policies within a framework of Democracy. I don't know for sure as I'm much more familiar with the US system.

But our NDP on the far left is considered socialist, if only in local parlance. (I've heard Americans call us socialist many times too tho! :))This is due to the tendency to conflate the term "Socialist" with "Social Democrat" by most Canadians. The confusion here is over semantics.

As M points out, is not the standard definition of socialism, and thus Canada is not, and never has been socialist.
A quick follow up. Two points:

First, the NDP has formed at least one provincial government in Canada: Ontario in the early 1990s. This is one reason why Bob Rae was passed over as leader of the Liberal party many years back in favor of the pleasant but shrill and uncharismatic Stephane Dion. Enter the long cold night of the Harper years. Anyway, this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_g ... tion,_1990

Second, the political (as opposed to cultural) rationale for the PQ and for Quebecois separatism generally is predicated in a desire for a socialist state in Quebec that was felt to be impossible to achieve in concert with English Canada. Remember friends: 1/4 to 1/3 of Canadian voters choose the Tories on a consistent basis. My point is that if Canada had socialist governance, then the PQ would have no political rationale, and therefore a lot less traction. (cultural grievance is another matter)

Generally, the perception of Canada among Canadians sometimes departs from reality. That's OK. It happens to all of us. In this respect too, CANADA IS NOT SPECIAL. Canada may be interesting and good in many respects, but CANADA IS NOT EXCEPTIONAL.

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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by DGA » Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:57 pm

OK, a couple of things.
Minobu wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:58 pm
War is a machination of kings and governments.
to rally the people religion has been the most useful tool in the toolchest to rally the people.

As you know God puts the crown on the kings head guaranteeing him absolute rule and is bolstered by the priests.
God is make-believe. No one "knows" that God puts a crown on kings. That is unknowable, because God is unknowable, because God is a lie. What else is a lie? The claim that God makes a king, a king.

Kings are usually made by the sword, and by strategy. You're right about the priests, though. The history of the House of Saud since the 1930s is an interesting case study in this.
As an American you are doing this very well.

the whole rockets red glare and bombs bursting in air thing you all sing together with hand over heart.
For the record, The Star-Spangled Banner is, among other things, a record of being bombarded by English mortars in the War of 1812, when the English crown decided to order its soldiers to burn our capitol city. Those "rockets red glare" are 100% John Bull, not Uncle Sam. This is the same crown to which you are subject as a Canadian.

The entire premise of Canadian exceptionalism is a presumed superiority over the United States. Really, Canada's national identity (and I'm speaking of hegemonic Canada here, which is English Canada) is based in anti-Americanism from the very start: objection to the American experiment, and loyalty instead to the peculiar inhabitants of Buckingham Palace. This persists to the present. As ugly as American exceptionalism can get, Canada's is always one step stronger by virtue of defining itself as still more exceptional than "those guys over there." Yes, there's a lot to like about Canada and its achievements, but at the end of the day, it's an Anglicized Venezuela on ice.

I wouldn't bring this up if I didn't see it at work in this thread.

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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Malcolm » Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:07 pm

DGA wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:57 pm

Really, Canada's national identity (and I'm speaking of hegemonic Canada here, which is English Canada) is based in anti-Americanism from the very start:
Yup, we kicked the Tory bastards right out. ;-).
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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by PuerAzaelis » Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:12 pm

Uh, warning, very very bad language, tasteless humor, inappropriate and very offensive everything else and, um ... in fact just don't watch this.

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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Minobu » Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:47 pm

CapNCrunch wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:19 am
Malcolm said: "No, it isn't." In response to:
Canada is a socialist country and it works. free health care..

I missed that it was Malcolm who said this (consciously at least) prior to my long post about my experience living both in the US and Canada.

I'm sure that this statement is 100% correct, as Dan pointed out, Social Democrats have never risen to power federally or even provincially until recently - and Canadians refer to them as Socialist. The name Social Democrat was probably coined to distinguish between pure socialism as the kind my partner from Russia experienced, and our home-brew here which is the idea of socialist policies within a framework of Democracy. I don't know for sure as I'm much more familiar with the US system.

But our NDP on the far left is considered socialist, if only in local parlance. (I've heard Americans call us socialist many times too tho! :))This is due to the tendency to conflate the term "Socialist" with "Social Democrat" by most Canadians. The confusion here is over semantics.

As M points out, is not the standard definition of socialism, and thus Canada is not, and never has been socialist.
this is an example of probably someone who votes conservative..lol.
Canadians do not run around with flags saying they are socialist..
but social welfare systems such as unemployment insurance, welfare , Ontario disability program, Canada pension plan, Parks Canada, our health system, social welfare workers are all in the same paradigm as Britain which has a socialist system and France and Italy , germany etc.

Socialism has differing levels, Conservative swine in Canada with their racist right wing , pro trump, anti help the impoverished,poverty let them fish for themselves agendas are huge.We deal with this and hopefully they will be seen for what they are.

Canada is like this :
Liberals spend spend spend on social systems till it's obvious there is a need to cut back. this usually takes in and around ten years.
then the Conservative vermin are brought in...it's all fixed if you ask me. they use social media and newspapaers and what not to bend the public,,BOTH WAYS from time to time..the Sun newsp[aper is a right wing agenda , the Toronto star a left wing agenda...you see it on news panels ..CBC left bent CTV right wing bent...watch sunday morning CTV political programming and once as one on a panel was leaving said out right.."Well my work is done we now have a conservative government in power" all to the guffaws of other panel members.

My family , dead now were close friends and i mean like close friend to Trudeau . I know what i am talking about...

conservatives cut back on social systems and like the last batch of Harperites make the country hated world wide, induce anti Moslem sentiments to the point of trying to enact laws on cloth wearing women...they are vermin in my eyes...but a necessary evil ..Thank the universe for inducing some Canadian ideals in them and saving us from out right fascism .

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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Minobu » Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:13 pm

DGA wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:57 pm
OK, a couple of things.
Minobu wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:58 pm
War is a machination of kings and governments.
to rally the people religion has been the most useful tool in the toolchest to rally the people.

As you know God puts the crown on the kings head guaranteeing him absolute rule and is bolstered by the priests.
God is make-believe. No one "knows" that God puts a crown on kings. That is unknowable, because God is unknowable, because God is a lie. What else is a lie? The claim that God makes a king, a king.
As you know i am Buddhist and do not believe in God the Creator. It is well known in educated circles that God the Creator is a machination of those wanting power and it is with this that long ago was first introduced in order to create divine kings..Something my queen says she believes God put her here. Many a history teacher now teach this very thing...read Jared Diamond's Guns Steal and Germs.

so if you are trying to twist my paradigms and beliefs...again like i said in another thread you don't get me...
Kings are usually made by the sword, and by strategy. You're right about the priests, though. The history of the House of Saud since the 1930s is an interesting case study in this.
i'm not talking about this i am talking on the scheme and it's birth in human history.
As an American you are doing this very well.

the whole rockets red glare and bombs bursting in air thing you all sing together with hand over heart.
For the record, The Star-Spangled Banner is, among other things, a record of being bombarded by English mortars in the War of 1812, when the English crown decided to order its soldiers to burn our capitol city. Those "rockets red glare" are 100% John Bull, not Uncle Sam. This is the same crown to which you are subject as a Canadian.
i am referring to the use of this by the masses and it being taught to children ...it causes a deep sense of war ...it's just the whole patriotic war thing nightmare.
The entire premise of Canadian exceptionalism is a presumed superiority over the United States. Really, Canada's national identity (and I'm speaking of hegemonic Canada here, which is English Canada) is based in anti-Americanism from the very start: objection to the American experiment, and loyalty instead to the peculiar inhabitants of Buckingham Palace. This persists to the present. As ugly as American exceptionalism can get, Canada's is always one step stronger by virtue of defining itself as still more exceptional than "those guys over there." Yes, there's a lot to like about Canada and its achievements, but at the end of the day, it's an Anglicized Venezuela on ice.

you are so wrong on this.especially towards me.
For me the American Revolution is part and parcel to our very evolution as a species. the world changed due to this. Your Founding Fathers are gods to me...as a buddhist i see this as ,for lack of words to describe it ,a divine intervention thing, for lack of better words..Dharma Dhatu..what ever..something that springs forth and cause evolution...We don't actually have found our identity as a country yet..this is always brought up nation wide on Canada Day..July 1st thing...
I fins you very emotional on this issue and it skews your vision....

I loathe ronald rayguns and the bush's and republican war mongers...i love the peace corp , democrats , bernie sanders types...americans are cool and generally really nice...you suffer from black and white issues which blacks in Canada see when visiting and then realize how advanced we are in this aspect of life.
meh..i'm not anti american..i have the same amount of disdain for Canadian bullshit as American bullshit.
I wouldn't bring this up if I didn't see it at work in this thread.
but at the end of the day, it's an Anglicized Venezuela on ice
i feel you are greatly influenced by propaganda put out by governments..
Venezuela seems like some kind of pariah as of late as is Cuba...to you guys anyway.

thats all crap

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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Minobu » Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:21 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:07 pm
DGA wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:57 pm

Really, Canada's national identity (and I'm speaking of hegemonic Canada here, which is English Canada) is based in anti-Americanism from the very start:
Yup, we kicked the Tory bastards right out. ;-).
I had a summer fling in brooklyn heights with a economics person working for your government back in the 80's.

she said that , and this was around '87 , a very large portion of america was still owned by British interests.
she said you might have won independence but Britain still owned most if not practically all the economy after the war.

i get gyp for using the word con and conned..but a lot of people do not realize they are pawns of the governments and people in real power.

This whole thing i have said my peace on and i leave it to you all..
it's a distraction i don;t need..

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