The Unbearable Lightness of Anatman

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Jeff H
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Re: The Unbearable Lightness of Anatman

Post by Jeff H »

boda wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:10 am You guys are familiar with the Sisyphus myth, yes? The dude who's condemned to rolling a rock up a hill for all eternity. Can you imagine a more pointless activity? Who in that circumstance would not wish for a more fulfilling occupation?

What Sisyphus desires, and what I would argue we all desire, is what I'm talking about
Sisyphus suffers because he is compelled to perform actions without meaning. Perhaps he wishes he was being paid so some day he could retire. Maybe he’d rather be rolling a collection of stones up the hill to build a house or monument. Maybe he could find meaning in the positive effect of physical exercise on his body. But no, it’s one stone repeatedly and laboriously wrangled up the hill then rolling back down, for no reason at all.

Buddha says his suffering arises not from the lack of meaning, but from the delusion that the experience ought to have meaning or be real. There is only the experience. Overlaying meaning or solidity or permanence on the experience necessarily generates suffering. Removing those delusions results in harmony. And the reason for practicing buddhadharma is that all beings instinctively recoil from suffering and prefer a state of harmony. Buddhadharma is the opposite of imposing meanings then chasing them.
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Re: The Unbearable Lightness of Anatman

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Pretty good answer by my estimation Jeff. Anywsy, no one would deny that we experience convential meaning.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Jeff H
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Re: The Unbearable Lightness of Anatman

Post by Jeff H »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:50 pm Pretty good answer by my estimation Jeff. Anywsy, no one would deny that we experience convential meaning.
Yes, and "experiencer of conventional meaning", I think, is a reasonable definition of "sentient being".
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Re: The Unbearable Lightness of Anatman

Post by boda »

Grigoris wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:49 am Sigh...
Granted it’s mythical but Sisyphus is an example of completely depriving fuel from a fire, metaphorically speaking.

I don’t sigh.
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Re: The Unbearable Lightness of Anatman

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boda wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:43 pm
Grigoris wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:49 am Sigh...
Granted it’s mythical but Sisyphus is an example of completely depriving fuel from a fire, metaphorically speaking.

I don’t sigh.
That's what Theravada is all about, but this is a Mahayana and Vajrayana forum. Fight fire with fire.
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Re: The Unbearable Lightness of Anatman

Post by boda »

Grigoris wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:49 pm
boda wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:43 pm
Grigoris wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:49 am Sigh...
Granted it’s mythical but Sisyphus is an example of completely depriving fuel from a fire, metaphorically speaking.

I don’t sigh.
That's what Theravada is all about, but this is a Mahayana and Vajrayana forum. Fight fire with fire.
Theravada is devoid of meaning? Lol, you don’t pull any punches.
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Re: The Unbearable Lightness of Anatman

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boda wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:02 pmTheravada is devoid of meaning? Lol, you don’t pull any punches.
How you jumped to that completely erroneous conclusion on the basis of what I said is well beyond my ability to understand. :shrug:
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Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: The Unbearable Lightness of Anatman

Post by boda »

Grigoris wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:04 pm
boda wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:02 pmTheravada is devoid of meaning? Lol, you don’t pull any punches.
How you jumped to that completely erroneous conclusion on the basis of what I said is well beyond my ability to understand. :shrug:
A problem with relying too much on metaphor to convey your meaning, I suspect.
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Re: The Unbearable Lightness of Anatman

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boda wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:13 pmA problem with relying too much on metaphor to convey your meaning, I suspect.
If that helps you justify to yourself your inability to understand and your mistaken projections, that's fine by me. From now on I will not utilise metaphors at all when talking to you. Maybe that'll help. I doubt it, but I am willing to try.
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: The Unbearable Lightness of Anatman

Post by Grigoris »

boda wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:43 pmGranted it’s mythical but Sisyphus is an example of completely depriving fuel from a fire, metaphorically speaking.
In case you didn't know it: Sisyphus was being punished for his pride and deceitfulness. The task was not meaningless. It was a lesson for him. Like writing out "I will not...in class." 100x.

Dharma practices are like that. They are designed to help you realise the empty nature of all phenomena, including the practices themselves. Even after the realisation one continues to do them because, until one reaches non-regression, one needs to be continuously reminded.

They are not designed to make you happy, they are designed to facilitate realisation.

I think you need to read "Not for Happiness" by Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche. Might clear up some issues for you.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: The Unbearable Lightness of Anatman

Post by boda »

Grigoris wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:18 pm
boda wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:13 pmA problem with relying too much on metaphor to convey your meaning, I suspect.
If that helps you justify to yourself your inability to understand and your mistaken projections, that's fine by me. From now on I will not utilise metaphors at all when talking to you. Maybe that'll help. I doubt it, but I am willing to try.
Metaphors are useful in bridging gaps in understanding. Don't be afraid to use them appropriately. Personally, I usually don't mind if a metaphor, by itself, is used as a response, if it's compelling enough.
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Re: The Unbearable Lightness of Anatman

Post by boda »

Grigoris wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:31 pm
boda wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:43 pmGranted it’s mythical but Sisyphus is an example of completely depriving fuel from a fire, metaphorically speaking.
In case you didn't know it: Sisyphus was being punished for his pride and deceitfulness. The task was not meaningless. It was a lesson for him. Like writing out "I will not...in class." 100x.
I thought it was a task? How does that even make sense?
They are not designed to make you happy, they are designed to facilitate realisation.
The cessation of suffering may not be happiness, I don't know. Where did I say that Buddhism is designed to make a person happy?
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Re: The Unbearable Lightness of Anatman

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boda wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:43 pmThe cessation of suffering may not be happiness, I don't know. Where did I say that Buddhism is designed to make a person happy?
In another thread (the one where this discussion originated from) you made the claim that an increase in happiness was a measurement of progress in Buddhist practice.
I thought it was a task? How does that even make sense?
And now you are being intentionally obtuse, something you do in every discussion when your theories are backed into a corner, and so I am ending this discussion with you.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
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Re: The Unbearable Lightness of Anatman

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Grigoris wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:48 pm
boda wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:43 pmThe cessation of suffering may not be happiness, I don't know. Where did I say that Buddhism is designed to make a person happy?
In another thread (the one where this discussion originated from) you made the claim that an increase in happiness was a measurement of progress in Buddhist practice.
Yes, I claimed that degrees of happiness, or suffering, was an indicator of progress. Is that equivalent to claiming that Buddhism is designed to make people happy? According to the doctrine, the Path is designed to cease suffering. Generally speaking, relief is a good feeling, and though temporary it may indicate progress.
I thought it was a task? How does that even make sense?
And now you are being intentionally obtuse, something you do in every discussion when your theories are backed into a corner, and so I am ending this discussion with you.
You appear to be attributing the notion "The task was not meaningless," to me. What does that mean? That the Gods assigned Sisyphus to do meaninglessness and for no apparent reason? That makes no sense.

Don't blame me when your strawmen fail.
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Re: The Unbearable Lightness of Anatman

Post by boda »

Simon E. wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:30 am The Dharma is not about giving 'meaning' to life..that is an idea from the western intellectual tradition.
I've never heard of that theory. What is it called?

Are you saying that Dharma is not meaningful?
The Dharma is as natural as breathing swimming eating and shitting.
Our desire for meaning is as natural as these things, yes, of course.
We make it unnatural by jabbering on about it.
If things are made unnatural by jabbering about them, and unnatural is bad, then this forum makes Buddhism unnatural and bad? My logic must be off.
Particularly by jabbering on about 'meaning'..which is living life with a permanent conceptual condom between us and reality.
So becoming aware of the desire for meaning separates you from experience? That is an odd notion indeed.
To equate the Dharma with an imbuing of 'meaning' is just a sign of fearfulness. It enables an illusion of control.
Imagine what life would be like without a narrative.
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Re: The Unbearable Lightness of Anatman

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I would associate the feeling that life is meaningless, with a state of depression. Would I be mistaken in that?
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Re: The Unbearable Lightness of Anatman

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Queequeg wrote: Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:53 am It ends with the premise. In fact its over before the premise.

Provisional meaning is possible. But it's, you know, provisional.

Have you been buzzing around here all this time and missed the whole Madhyamika thing?
Good answer.

Entering into a place beyond "knowing" and where conceptualization is seen as empty and fairly limited a lot opens up but I am not sure a lot can be said.

It is where you start "living" your life and really taking on a different approach than philosophical inquiry.

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Re: The Unbearable Lightness of Anatman

Post by CedarTree »

Jeff H wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:44 pm
boda wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:10 am You guys are familiar with the Sisyphus myth, yes? The dude who's condemned to rolling a rock up a hill for all eternity. Can you imagine a more pointless activity? Who in that circumstance would not wish for a more fulfilling occupation?

What Sisyphus desires, and what I would argue we all desire, is what I'm talking about
Sisyphus suffers because he is compelled to perform actions without meaning. Perhaps he wishes he was being paid so some day he could retire. Maybe he’d rather be rolling a collection of stones up the hill to build a house or monument. Maybe he could find meaning in the positive effect of physical exercise on his body. But no, it’s one stone repeatedly and laboriously wrangled up the hill then rolling back down, for no reason at all.

Buddha says his suffering arises not from the lack of meaning, but from the delusion that the experience ought to have meaning or be real. There is only the experience. Overlaying meaning or solidity or permanence on the experience necessarily generates suffering. Removing those delusions results in harmony. And the reason for practicing buddhadharma is that all beings instinctively recoil from suffering and prefer a state of harmony. Buddhadharma is the opposite of imposing meanings then chasing them.
K this is a great elucidation. :) Great post

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Re: The Unbearable Lightness of Anatman

Post by Simon E. »

CedarTree wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:23 pm
Queequeg wrote: Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:53 am It ends with the premise. In fact its over before the premise.

Provisional meaning is possible. But it's, you know, provisional.

Have you been buzzing around here all this time and missed the whole Madhyamika thing?
Good answer.

Entering into a place beyond "knowing" and where conceptualization is seen as empty and fairly limited a lot opens up but I am not sure a lot can be said.

It is where you start "living" your life and really taking on a different approach than philosophical inquiry.
:anjali:
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
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Re: The Unbearable Lightness of Anatman

Post by DGA »

boda wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:54 pm
Simon E. wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:30 am The Dharma is not about giving 'meaning' to life..that is an idea from the western intellectual tradition.
I've never heard of that theory. What is it called?
That isn't a theory. It's history. You can prove both of Simon's points for yourself in this way:

1. Read through the recorded teachings of Shakyamuni Buddha, in any canon you like. Do you find any instructions in how to make your life more meaningful? Any description of everyday life as inherently meaningful? Is samsara glossed anywhere as a field of personal meaning? Let us know what you find.

2. Identify any advice books or other sources that guide the reader in living a life that has meaning. The meaningful life as a goal, you will find, emerged into public discourse in the middle of the nineteenth century. It's mostly a Protestant thing.

Life has to be made meaningful, because it's inherently meaningless (inasmuch as it's inherently anything). Making meaning is an exercise in make-believe. Meaninglessness isn't the problem. Affliction and the suffering that goes with it are the problem.
Imagine what life would be like without a narrative.
Here's one explanation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_(Buddhism)
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