-ise vs -ize

Casual conversation between friends. Anything goes (almost).
boda
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Re: The world is getting worse and worse

Post by boda » Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:06 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:14 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:04 am
Whether 'the world' is getting worse I have no idea..I suppose it depends on what you mean by the 'world' and 'worse'.

I think we can be sure however that samsara remains samsara. And that samsaric sentient life is characterised by dukkha, anatta, and anicca.

Just as it always has been.
The parts of my post I would emphasise is the second paragraph and final sentence.
I take it you mean that in hindsight that you should have emphasized it.
Worlds after all rise and fall.
Nevertheless, people do what they can, out of their love and compassion.

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Grigoris
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Re: The world is getting worse and worse

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:17 pm

boda wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:06 pm
I take it you mean that in hindsight that you should have emphasized it.
Only if you are Amerikan.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
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boda
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Re: The world is getting worse and worse

Post by boda » Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:52 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:17 pm
boda wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:06 pm
I take it you mean that in hindsight that you should have emphasized it.
Only if you are Amerikan.
I doubt regional data is written into the Grammarly algorithm. In any case you’re wrong, it’s more commonly spelled with a z in Britain.

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Grigoris
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Re: The world is getting worse and worse

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:54 pm

boda wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:52 pm
I doubt regional data is written into the Grammarly algorithm. In any case you’re wrong, it’s more commonly spelled with a z in Britain.
Yeah, right, whatever... You would know; being an Englishman like Simon, or somebody with a Tertiary education from an English colony, like me. Right?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

boda
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Re: The world is getting worse and worse

Post by boda » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:24 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:54 pm
boda wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:52 pm
I doubt regional data is written into the Grammarly algorithm. In any case you’re wrong, it’s more commonly spelled with a z in Britain.
Yeah, right, whatever... You would know; being an Englishman like Simon, or somebody with a Tertiary education from an English colony, like me. Right?
No I googled it. It used to be more commonly spelled with an s in Britain, but they’re finally catching up with the leaders, in spelling emphasise at least. I kid!!

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Ricky
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Re: The world is getting worse and worse

Post by Ricky » Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:32 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:17 pm
boda wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:06 pm
I take it you mean that in hindsight that you should have emphasized it.
Only if you are Amerikan.
F Amerikkka but God bless the s&p 500. :twothumbsup:

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Re: The world is getting worse and worse

Post by MiphamFan » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:27 am

In Oxford spelling (used by the UN too), you spell -ize but still -yse. Realize, actualize, emphasize but analyse, catalyse etc. This is the etymologically correct way and actually was the pre-WW2 British usage too. After WW2 Brits started using -ise to set themselves apart from Americans.

Honour, colour etc still spelled as per British.

Does grammarly provide for Oxford spelling? If not it sucks and is useless.

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Grigoris
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Re: The world is getting worse and worse

Post by Grigoris » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:48 am

boda wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:24 am
No I googled it. It used to be more commonly spelled with an s in Britain, but they’re finally catching up with the leaders, in spelling emphasise at least. I kid!!
Well, if Google says it. I was taught to emphasise, prioritise, legitimise and to chastise. Even now my spell check (since it is in US "English") has underlined all the -ise, but I dutifully ignore it. Call it a labour (it is red lining this word too) of love.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Simon E.
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Re: The world is getting worse and worse

Post by Simon E. » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:53 am

Buy any old volume printed in Victorian Britain including Thackeray and Dickens and you will find it spelled 'emphasised'. like wise 'exercise', 'volumise'...I and every other Brit born in the last 100 years at least, has always used the 's' form as any Brit on this forum can attest. As did our parents and grandparents.

All of which is a distraction and started as a distraction from the topic.
Specifically a pointing out of the fact that whether the world is getting better is a question needs to be seen in a context, And the context is samsara and infinite time.
All sentient life is characterised by the Three Marks whether the times are relatively good or relatively bad.
A belated New Years Resolution 2018.

No posts or responses to posts outside of the Vajrayana forums. Its just a waste of time.

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Re: The world is getting worse and worse

Post by Simon E. » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:55 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:48 am
boda wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:24 am
No I googled it. It used to be more commonly spelled with an s in Britain, but they’re finally catching up with the leaders, in spelling emphasise at least. I kid!!
Well, if Google says it. I was taught to emphasise, prioritise, legitimise and to chastise. Even now my spell check (since it is in US "English") has underlined all the -ise, but I dutifully ignore it. Call it a labour (it is red lining this word too) of love.
Precisely.
A belated New Years Resolution 2018.

No posts or responses to posts outside of the Vajrayana forums. Its just a waste of time.

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Re: The world is getting worse and worse

Post by MiphamFan » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:13 am

Simon E. wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:53 am
Buy any old volume printed in Victorian Britain including Thackeray and Dickens and you will find it spelled 'emphasised'. like wise 'exercise', 'volumise'...I and every other Brit born in the last 100 years at least, has always used the 's' form as any Brit on this forum can attest. As did our parents and grandparents.
Those were probably modernized editions.

Tolkien used -ize: "Epic, heroic legend, saga, then localized these stories in real places and humanized them by attributing them to ancestral heroes, mightier than men and yet already men. And finally these legends, dwindling down, became folk-tales, Märchen, fairy-stories—nursery-tales."

He was an editor of the Oxford English Dictionary.

Many other prominent English writers in the pre-WW2 period did so too, such as Sir Arthur Conan Doyle:

“No, sir, no; though I am happy to have had the opportunity of doing that as well. I came to you, Mr. Holmes, because I recognized that I am myself an unpractical man and because I am suddenly confronted with a most serious and extraordinary problem. Recognizing, as I do, that you are the second highest expert in Europe—”

The Victorians even used -ize when both modern Americans and Brits would use -ise such as "surprize"

Some history on the usage of -ize:

http://www.metadyne.co.uk/ize.html

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Grigoris
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-ise vs -ize

Post by Grigoris » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:21 am

Lobotomise.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Grigoris
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Re: The world is getting worse and worse

Post by Grigoris » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:30 am

MiphamFan wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:13 am
Simon E. wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:53 am
Buy any old volume printed in Victorian Britain including Thackeray and Dickens and you will find it spelled 'emphasised'. like wise 'exercise', 'volumise'...I and every other Brit born in the last 100 years at least, has always used the 's' form as any Brit on this forum can attest. As did our parents and grandparents.
Those were probably modernized editions.

Tolkien used -ize: "Epic, heroic legend, saga, then localized these stories in real places and humanized them by attributing them to ancestral heroes, mightier than men and yet already men. And finally these legends, dwindling down, became folk-tales, Märchen, fairy-stories—nursery-tales."

He was an editor of the Oxford English Dictionary.

Many other prominent English writers in the pre-WW2 period did so too, such as Sir Arthur Conan Doyle:

“No, sir, no; though I am happy to have had the opportunity of doing that as well. I came to you, Mr. Holmes, because I recognized that I am myself an unpractical man and because I am suddenly confronted with a most serious and extraordinary problem. Recognizing, as I do, that you are the second highest expert in Europe—”

The Victorians even used -ize when both modern Americans and Brits would use -ise such as "surprize"

Some history on the usage of -ize:

http://www.metadyne.co.uk/ize.html
The two examples you used were from post-WWII electronic editions, you would have to look at a pre-WWII printed edition to draw your conclusions.

Victorians were also pre-WWII, remember somebody claimed that it was a post-WWII usage.

What I know is that people in my generation, growing up in English colonies, learned to use -ise and to sing "God Save the Queen" at school assemblies.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: -ise vs -ize

Post by MiphamFan » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:34 am

Hound of the Baskervilles page 17.

Ironically, the American publisher changed it to -ise: https://archive.org/details/houndbaskervill02doylgoog

Lord of the Rings, UK edition:
Suddenly Merry and Pippin realized that without moving they were now outside the circle: there was nothing between them and escape.
Sam had lain still, fascinated by this debate, but watching every move that Gollum made from under his half-closed eye-lids. To his simple mind ordinary hunger, the desire to eat hobbits, had seemed the chief danger in Gollum. He realized now that it was not so: Gollum was feeling the terrible call of the Ring.
Tolkien's Middle English vocabulary:
For the convenience of beginners the glossary is liberally supplied with cross references, and the prefixed Table summarizes the principal variations of form or spelling.
Baptiste, pa. t. baptized, XVI
75. [OFr. baptiser.-}
Sclaundre(n), v. to scandalize,
I don't understand your point about post-WW2 usage.

I said -ize was the common pre-WW2 usage in Britain, and is continued to this day by Oxford University Press (and used in the OED). -ise was popularized post-WW2.

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Mantrik
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Re: -ise vs -ize

Post by Mantrik » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:43 am

More ayes for 'ise' in the UK.

I prefer not to 'A merkin ize' my language; sadly, most technology seems to default to the 'merkin spelling.

It is time they also stopped calling this beast 'American English'; it is 'American', at the risk of upsetting the First Nations who actually had languages before our landed on their shores.
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Re: -ise vs -ize

Post by MiphamFan » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:52 am

-ize is as American as Socrates.

(i.e. not at all, it reflects the Greek etymology better)

On the other hand I would never spell analyse as analyze, how illiterate!

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Kim O'Hara
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Re: -ise vs -ize

Post by Kim O'Hara » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:32 pm

For all the grammar-Nasis :tongue:
An explanation - https://theconversation.com/its-time-to ... -ize-19828
A competing explanation - https://www.macquariedictionary.com.au/blog/article/79/
Lots of style guides - http://www.bbc.co.uk/academy/journalism ... 0112740749

... all :quoteunquote: authoritative :quoteunquote: of course.

:stirthepot:
Kim

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Coëmgenu
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Re: -ise vs -ize

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:38 pm

Aie misse the daes afour Ye Gutenberg Press, when we would enscribe as we wished.
子念昔貧,志意下劣,今於父所,大獲珍寶,并及舍宅、一切財物。甚大歡喜,得未曾有。
The son thought of past poverty, outlook humble, now having from father a treasure harvest, also father's house, all his wealth. Great joy - to have what was never before had.

Τῆς πατρῴας, δόξης σου, ἀποσκιρτήσας ἀφρόνως, ἐν κακοῖς ἐσκόρπισα, ὅν μοι παρέδωκας πλοῦτον· ὅθεν σοι τὴν τοῦ Ἀσώτου, φωνὴν κραυγάζω· Ἥμαρτον ἐνώπιόν σου Πάτερ οἰκτίρμον, δέξαι με μετανοοῦντα, καὶ ποίησόν με, ὡς ἕνα τῶν μισθίων σου.
Your fatherly due I withheld unthinking, in evil I wasted your wealth; a prodigal cries, "I've erred, father, receive the repentant as serf."

妙法蓮華經 Κοντάκιον τοῦ Ἀσώτου

boda
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Re: The world is getting worse and worse

Post by boda » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:06 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:48 am
boda wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:24 am
No I googled it. It used to be more commonly spelled with an s in Britain, but they’re finally catching up with the leaders, in spelling emphasise at least.
Well, if Google says it.
You suspect a clandestine plot to control the minds of Google searchers, via spelling? Those rascally Russian! If I knew the stakes were so high I would have devoted more than a minute to research.

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Grigoris
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Re: The world is getting worse and worse

Post by Grigoris » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:52 pm

boda wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:06 pm
You suspect a clandestine plot to control the minds of Google searchers, via spelling? Those rascally Russian! If I knew the stakes were so high I would have devoted more than a minute to research.
No.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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