Goodbye

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PuerAzaelis
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Goodbye

Post by PuerAzaelis » Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:27 am

Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

For posts from this user, see Karma Dondrup Tashi account.

Jeff H
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Re: Goodbye

Post by Jeff H » Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:10 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:27 am
[First, why the thread title, PA? Are you going away?]

I think this relates to the discussion of meaning that we had in the Unbearable Lightness of Anatman thread. This is a really good talk, but for me, it doesn’t go as far as Buddhism in explaining how suffering can be overcome. His conclusion is that “meaning in life makes the suffering worthwhile”.

The first half of Peterson's talk reminded me of HHDL’s Beyond Religion where he tries to derive fundamental principles of ethics that anyone can agree to regardless of their religion or the lack of it. Then in the second half, Peterson comes very close to what I understand Buddhism to be about, but misses the essence by clinging to “meaning” and stopping there.

He argues that meaning is what happens in the moment. When we suffer, that is our meaning at that time. When that suffering is taken to the extreme of intentional malevolence, he says, we cannot deny that suffering and evil are real and incontrovertible. But that implies that the opposite condition is equally real, so the question becomes, what is the condition opposite pure evil and how do we get there? How shall we infuse the moments of our lives with positive meaning to replace the negative meaning? This is a marvelous strategy for coping with samsara, but it leaves out any hope of transcendence. I transcribed my favorite parts:
[12:06] We all suffer. That’s the meaning of life. We all suffer. The suffering is exacerbated by the malevolence in our hearts and in the hearts of all of us. And the paramount issue that faces us is what to do about that. An answer is, I think, live a life that manifests itself as meaningful. Because it seems to me that … meaning isn’t a rational phenomenon. It’s not something that you create. This is where, I think, Nietzsche got it wrong. He believed that as a consequence of the death of God we had to create our own values. We would have to become gods ourselves, so to speak. But I don’t think that Nietzsche was right because I don’t think that we can create our own values, I think we have to discover them. And I think that what we discover are eternal values and I think that the eternal values that are discoverable are precisely the values that lead us away from the pathway to perdition that was characterized by places like Auschwitz. And also, I think that we all know this.



[15:55] As real as I believe suffering and evil to be, it appears to me that the mode of being that leads you away from that, that enables you to bear the suffering with nobility and be useful to others who are in pain and to constrain the malevolence in your own heart and around you, that that mode of being is more powerful than that which it is set against. And not only that, I think that we experience this but we just don’t notice. Maybe because we’re too busy thinking. Because noticing and thinking aren’t the same thing. We see in our own lives when we’re engaged in something deeply meaningful. Music is the best pathway to that, I think. It’s the most rapid and indisputable pathway to that. Everyone, virtually everyone, loves music, and music speaks of meaning. It does it directly. It shows you what life would be like if it was ordered and harmonious and you were dancing along with it properly. It gives you an intimation of psychological integrity. But you watch your lives day to day, week to week, month to month, you’ll notice that there are times when you’re so deeply engaged in what you’re doing, when what you’re doing is so meaningful – the kind of meaning that announces itself, not the kind that you’re creating – that life is so meaningful you think, “this is worth the suffering”. And I think, “well, that’s meaning”, right? Meaning is what makes the suffering worthwhile.



[18:35] The price of experiencing [this], I would say, is two-fold. You have to take responsibility for being; You have to do that voluntarily. And that means that you have to take responsibility for the suffering of being and accept it and work to ameliorate it.
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

boda
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Re: Goodbye

Post by boda » Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:39 am

"What difference is it going to make a thousand years from now" is obviously an excuse to shrug responsibility.
Peterson wrote:But I don’t think that Nietzsche was right because I don’t think that we can create our own values, I think we have to discover them. And I think that what we discover are eternal values and I think that the eternal values that are discoverable are precisely the values that lead us away from the pathway to perdition that was characterized by places like Auschwitz. And also, I think that we all know this.
I think we all know that values are as empty as anything else, and being so they're not eternal but changeable and relative. We can, of course, better examine or get in touch with ourselves to 'discover' our values, but we can also intentionally develop ourselves in a particular path, such as the Eightfold Path.
Meaning is what makes the suffering worthwhile.
Satisfaction or relief is what makes suffering worthwhile. Meaning unifies the values of a community in common purpose.

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Re: Goodbye

Post by Jeff H » Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:16 pm

boda wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:39 am
Satisfaction or relief is what makes suffering worthwhile. Meaning unifies the values of a community in common purpose.
Well put. “What difference will it make in a thousand years” was spoken by Peterson’s straw man, but it represents those who are ignorant of momentariness. Unfortunately, Peterson then turns around and interjects his own eternalism in the form of ideal values. In Beyond Religion HHDL, on the other hand, derives common values based on the universally observable axiom that living beings seek happiness and avoid suffering –- however misguided their methods might be.

I take that to be the “meaning” you refer to as “values of a community in common purpose”. Which makes it the “meaning of Buddhism” in the sense of a tool to be used for the purpose of overcoming the dualistic source of suffering as well as the need for meaning. Once the folly of dualism is truly understood and internalized, there is no more need for suffering or meaning. Meaning, in this sense, is the raft that liberates and is then discarded.
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

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weitsicht
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Re: Goodbye

Post by weitsicht » Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:38 pm

Jeff H wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:16 pm
I take that to be the “meaning” you refer to as “values of a community in common purpose”. Which makes it the “meaning of Buddhism” in the sense of a tool to be used for the purpose of overcoming the dualistic source of suffering as well as the need for meaning. Once the folly of dualism is truly understood and internalized, there is no more need for suffering or meaning. Meaning, in this sense, is the raft that liberates and is then discarded.
Indeed, meaning can be a nice upaya for a while - if later discarded.
But I didn't get the feeling that Peterson is there. He makes meaning his big value, hence something his ego can cling onto.

This dream of eternal values. In another thread, Malcolm was deconstructing my notion that (at least I should say) time and space are uncompounded. I am not very fond of debating with Malcolm, hence just ceased (again) my activity in said thread. I still somehow hope that there at least in spacetime is the last eternal value left. But I ceased deliberating because I don't see much use in making understanding to the Minkowski and Penrose Diagrams. Ceasing any kind of mental clinging whatsoever has a too positive effect in order not to pursue. I can leave this question open.

PuerAzelis however indeed seems to have been (temporarily?) gone. Account remained activated still.
Can't avoid wondering why.
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

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Malcolm
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Re: Goodbye

Post by Malcolm » Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:47 pm

weitsicht wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:38 pm
I still somehow hope that there at least in spacetime is the last eternal value left.
The problem is that conditioned entities are in spacetime. If spacetime were unconditioned, it could not contain conditioned entities because any relationship between a conditioned entity and an unconditioned entity is impossible.

With respect to Buddhist values -- they are based on "natural" law, i.e. that the ten nonvirtues contribute in general to overall misery and the ten virtues contribute to overall happiness. All Buddhist discipline takes these ten natural principles based on our body, voice, and mind as the foundation for all vows, and so on. When we add bodhicitta on top of this, we arrive at the Mahāyāna path. This is why all Mahāyāna practice, including Dzogchen, takes the motivation to attain buddhahood for all sentient beings as the basis for the path.

Nonharming -- bodhicitta -- insight. These three are the essence of Mahāyāna ethics.

M
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Jeff H
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Re: Goodbye

Post by Jeff H » Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:00 pm

weitsicht wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:38 pm
But I didn't get the feeling that Peterson is there. He makes meaning his big value, hence something his ego can cling onto.
Yes, that was exactly my feeling. Peterson really seemed to be going in the right direction, but then he took the exit at grasping onto meaning as something real.
weitsicht wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:38 pm
... I am not very fond of debating with Malcolm, hence just ceased (again) my activity in said thread. ...
Risking censure for meta-discussion, let me just say that it is well worthwhile debating with Malcolm, especially when you're certain you're right. Sometimes his responses may seem too terse, but that's just the point of the iceberg. Keep reading him and you'll see that he can back up his points. Sometimes it's helpful to press him to see if the light dawns. Other times the best thing is to "just cease" and reflect for a while. If you still think you're right, good; you've at least resolved a challenge within yourself. But don't be too quick to dismiss it when Malcolm gnaws at you. He makes a lot us look a little deeper.
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

marting
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Re: Goodbye

Post by marting » Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:04 pm

Jeff H wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:00 pm
Risking censure for meta-discussion, let me just say that it is well worthwhile debating with Malcolm, especially when you're certain you're right.
In general, when someone has an aversion to entering a discussion with another person, it 9/10 indicates a deep emotional conviction that the person feels is essential one's own identity and is being challenged by that other person.

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Wayfarer
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Re: Goodbye

Post by Wayfarer » Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:33 am

“Malcolm” wrote:All Buddhist discipline takes these ten natural principles based on our body, voice, and mind as the foundation for all vows, and so on. When we add bodhicitta on top of this, we arrive at the Mahāyāna path. This is why all Mahāyāna practice, including Dzogchen, takes the motivation to attain buddhahood for all sentient beings as the basis for the path.

Nonharming -- bodhicitta -- insight. These three are the essence of Mahāyāna ethics.
I couldn’t possibly disagree with any of that, as I think it’s perfectly true. But in respect of Nāgārjuna’s teaching of śūnyatā - if this says that nothing is real, or nothing truly exists, does this also apply to the elements of the Buddhist path, as outlined here? Or would that be a misunderstanding?
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki Roshi

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Re: Goodbye

Post by MiphamFan » Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:48 am

Excerpt from a peterson speech:
And I'm tellin ya BUCKO you don't want to go there, it's a really dark place. And once you get there it's hard to get out. Solzhenitsyn talks about this, and I've read Solzhenitsyn. It's DARK STUFF BUCKO. Never mind that the CIA wrote it, it's DARK STUFF. And you don't want to go there. But I've read Solzhenitsyn, and it's not really obvious, it's really complex stuff. And DARK. And Solzhenitsyn is one of the deepest writers of the 20th century. He knew the darkness BUCKO, and. you. don't. want. to. go. there. He was a hero because he spoke the truth. It's hard to come back from that place, but he did. He cleaned his room and got the BUCKOS out of his country. And the other thing that's so interesting is that lobsters knew all this stuff. They cleaned their rooms 20 million years ago. And if you don't clean your room BUCKO it's a DARK PLACE, and trust me, you don't want to go there. I've been there, and trust me, you got to sort yourself out. And that's by no means obvious.

The clean room is the foil of God. Clean your room, bring him out of that DARK PLACE man, and that's your father saved. Got it BUCKO? You get to be top lobster, and that's by no means obvious. It's an archetype, I've read my Jung. It's a DARK PLACE man, I've read him. He went into that DARK PLACE and saved the lobster. And that's because he took the time to pet the cat BUCKO. And trust me, you don't want to go there. It's tyrannical, you don't want to go there. And it's by no means obvious. It's pathological. Trust me, I know BUCKO. I spent 30 years studying the Jungian archetype in the Concentration Camps. It's a DARK PLACE, you don't want to go down that road. And that's by no means obvious. And NEETCHA too, he was in a DARK PLACE BUCKO. It's mind-bogglingly brilliant stuff. And by no means obvious BUCKO.

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Wayfarer
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Re: Goodbye

Post by Wayfarer » Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:54 am

seems a little eccentric. But I just listened to the video posted above - first Peterson video i’ve listened to, agree with it 100%. And I think there’s a reason why it was posted on this particular forum.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki Roshi

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Malcolm
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Re: Goodbye

Post by Malcolm » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:09 am

Wayfarer wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:33 am
“Malcolm” wrote:All Buddhist discipline takes these ten natural principles based on our body, voice, and mind as the foundation for all vows, and so on. When we add bodhicitta on top of this, we arrive at the Mahāyāna path. This is why all Mahāyāna practice, including Dzogchen, takes the motivation to attain buddhahood for all sentient beings as the basis for the path.

Nonharming -- bodhicitta -- insight. These three are the essence of Mahāyāna ethics.
I couldn’t possibly disagree with any of that, as I think it’s perfectly true. But in respect of Nāgārjuna’s teaching of śūnyatā - if this says that nothing is real, or nothing truly exists, does this also apply to the elements of the Buddhist path, as outlined here? Or would that be a misunderstanding?
As Haribhadra pointed out, the path, from beginning to end, is an illusion, like anything else produced from conditions, such as mirages, optical illusions, and so on. The appearances that we see have no essence when they appear, and if they are sought out, they are only found with respect to how solid our own clinging to our own sense of self is. In other words, the more real we imagine our personal self to be, the more real we imagine phenomena to be. And when we have understood that our personal self really is just a designation upon shifting conditions, which are composed of still more shifting conditions, we simultaneously can understand that about all other appearances, and sever our clinging. In the meantime, we observe conventions and do not assume these illusory conditions don't have rules and apparent consequences. But it isn't fixed or real in any meaningful, ontological, way.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Goodbye

Post by Malcolm » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:19 am

MiphamFan wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:48 am
Excerpt from a peterson speech:
And the other thing that's so interesting is that lobsters knew all this stuff. They cleaned their rooms 20 million years ago.

Obviously, someone needs to do a cutup of Peterson's speeches ala Gyson and Burroughs. This shit is great.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

krodha
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Re: Goodbye

Post by krodha » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:29 am

MiphamFan wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:48 am
Excerpt from a peterson speech:
And I'm tellin ya BUCKO you don't want to go there, it's a really dark place. And once you get there it's hard to get out. Solzhenitsyn talks about this, and I've read Solzhenitsyn. It's DARK STUFF BUCKO. Never mind that the CIA wrote it, it's DARK STUFF. And you don't want to go there. But I've read Solzhenitsyn, and it's not really obvious, it's really complex stuff. And DARK. And Solzhenitsyn is one of the deepest writers of the 20th century. He knew the darkness BUCKO, and. you. don't. want. to. go. there. He was a hero because he spoke the truth. It's hard to come back from that place, but he did. He cleaned his room and got the BUCKOS out of his country. And the other thing that's so interesting is that lobsters knew all this stuff. They cleaned their rooms 20 million years ago. And if you don't clean your room BUCKO it's a DARK PLACE, and trust me, you don't want to go there. I've been there, and trust me, you got to sort yourself out. And that's by no means obvious.

The clean room is the foil of God. Clean your room, bring him out of that DARK PLACE man, and that's your father saved. Got it BUCKO? You get to be top lobster, and that's by no means obvious. It's an archetype, I've read my Jung. It's a DARK PLACE man, I've read him. He went into that DARK PLACE and saved the lobster. And that's because he took the time to pet the cat BUCKO. And trust me, you don't want to go there. It's tyrannical, you don't want to go there. And it's by no means obvious. It's pathological. Trust me, I know BUCKO. I spent 30 years studying the Jungian archetype in the Concentration Camps. It's a DARK PLACE, you don't want to go down that road. And that's by no means obvious. And NEETCHA too, he was in a DARK PLACE BUCKO. It's mind-bogglingly brilliant stuff. And by no means obvious BUCKO.
What is this from? I listened to Peterson's interview on the Joe Rogan podcast just last week and he sounded nothing like this.

Norwegian
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Re: Goodbye

Post by Norwegian » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:40 am

krodha wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:29 am
MiphamFan wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:48 am
Excerpt from a peterson speech:
And I'm tellin ya BUCKO you don't want to go there, it's a really dark place. And once you get there it's hard to get out. Solzhenitsyn talks about this, and I've read Solzhenitsyn. It's DARK STUFF BUCKO. Never mind that the CIA wrote it, it's DARK STUFF. And you don't want to go there. But I've read Solzhenitsyn, and it's not really obvious, it's really complex stuff. And DARK. And Solzhenitsyn is one of the deepest writers of the 20th century. He knew the darkness BUCKO, and. you. don't. want. to. go. there. He was a hero because he spoke the truth. It's hard to come back from that place, but he did. He cleaned his room and got the BUCKOS out of his country. And the other thing that's so interesting is that lobsters knew all this stuff. They cleaned their rooms 20 million years ago. And if you don't clean your room BUCKO it's a DARK PLACE, and trust me, you don't want to go there. I've been there, and trust me, you got to sort yourself out. And that's by no means obvious.

The clean room is the foil of God. Clean your room, bring him out of that DARK PLACE man, and that's your father saved. Got it BUCKO? You get to be top lobster, and that's by no means obvious. It's an archetype, I've read my Jung. It's a DARK PLACE man, I've read him. He went into that DARK PLACE and saved the lobster. And that's because he took the time to pet the cat BUCKO. And trust me, you don't want to go there. It's tyrannical, you don't want to go there. And it's by no means obvious. It's pathological. Trust me, I know BUCKO. I spent 30 years studying the Jungian archetype in the Concentration Camps. It's a DARK PLACE, you don't want to go down that road. And that's by no means obvious. And NEETCHA too, he was in a DARK PLACE BUCKO. It's mind-bogglingly brilliant stuff. And by no means obvious BUCKO.
What is this from? I listened to Peterson's interview on the Joe Rogan podcast just last week and he sounded nothing like this.
Googling sentences from the above only gives me results from 4chan, and when checking, it just looks like a meme, repeated here and there.

MiphamFan
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Re: Goodbye

Post by MiphamFan » Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:29 am

It's a parody. This is how he talks in his lectures.

Anyway for a more srs criticism of Peterson:
John Michael Greer wrote:Violet, it’s been a while since I read him, and I don’t recall at the moment what it was that made me roll my eyes and go do something more interesting, but to the best of my recollection it’s simply that his ideas are a mild rehash of one end of the conventional wisdom. There are quite a few very popular intellectuals who are like that: they restate the familiar and bland in colorful terms, and so get a large fan base of people who like to have their own beliefs repeated to them.
Peterson keeps his cool under pressure and talks conventional wisdom. He is a smart guy, but he really says nothing that is really insightful: clean your room, set goals, work towards something. This is common sense.

His tirades against communism and "cultural Marxism" are boring and very baby boomerish. Most "cultural Marxists" don't even know the labour theory of value.

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Wayfarer
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Re: Goodbye

Post by Wayfarer » Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:55 am

“Malcolm” wrote:In the meantime, we observe conventions and do not assume these illusory conditions don't have rules and apparent consequences.
Thank you, that is the point I wished to clarify.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki Roshi

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Re: Goodbye

Post by GeorgeFowell » Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:44 am

Hi everyone,
I am new here and I read the whole conversation and I have understood that everyone has their own phenomenon about life and everyone is true in their point of view. Because everyone has the different point of view in this world so we have to accept it and I love the way everyone expresses themselves. :twothumbsup:

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