What is a Man?

[dzogchungpa]

My grandfather was quite a tough manly man from what I recall, same would probably be true for most men from that era (GI generation). The sharp decline in manliness must of started around the time baby boomers came along who then went on to produce an even weaker generation of men (millenials).

By that criterion, I am a weak man. And believe me, I am no millenial.
I try to be a good dad and husband, but I never aspired to be John Wayne or Sean Connery..in fact I think that such models of masculinity are faintly ridiculous.

So what would be a better model of masculinity? I've always wanted to be like Tony Montana.

I'm going for Christian Grey.

[Lucas Oliveira]

Where of an evening they gathered and carried away for supper, there next morning the rice stood ripe and grown again. Where in the morning they gathered and carried away for breakfast, there in the evening it stood ripe and grown again. No break was to be seen [where the husks had been broken off].

Then those beings feasting on this rice in the clearings, feeding on it, nourished by it, so continued for a long long while. And in measure as they, thus feeding, went on existing, so did the bodies of those beings become even more solid, and the divergence in their comeliness more pronounced. In the female appeared the distinctive features of the female, in the male those of the male. Then truly did woman contemplate man too closely, and man, woman. In them contemplating over much the one the other, passion arose and burning entered their body. They in consequence thereof followed their lusts. And beings seeing them so doing threw, some, sand, some, ashes, some, cowdung, crying: Perish, foul one! Perish, foul one! How can a being treat a being so? Even so now when men, in certain districts, when a bride is led away, throw either sand, or ashes, or cowdung, they do but follow an ancient enduring primordial form, not recognizing the significance thereof.

That which was reckoned immoral at that time, Vāseṭṭha, is now reckoned to be moral. Those beings who at that time followed their lusts, were not allowed to enter village or town either for a whole month or even for two months. And inasmuch as those beings at that time quickly incurred blame for immorality, they set to work to make huts, to conceal just that immorality.

Agañña Sutta (DN 27) - A Book of Genesis
https://suttacentral.net/en/dn27

[DGA]

How many genders are described in Abhidharma?

None. It just talks about the "material phenomenona of sex".

So it describes what it means for a body to be a specifically male or female one.

This is distinct from the question of what it is for a person to be a man. I'm curious to know if Abhidharma can capture the experience of not fitting into either categories "man" or "woman" in a tidy fashion, or the experience of being a woman but having a male body or being a man but having a female body.

manhood is a social construction. it's built up in different ways in different contexts, and all of them are full of contradictions.

[DGA]

Another good question is: What is a "real woman"?

That can be a tricky question these days.

I think it's an easy question.

A woman is an adult who identifies as a woman.

[Simon E.]

On thinking about it, my ideal male role model would be the Bodhisattva Brian Griffin.

[Malcolm]

Another good question is: What is a "real woman"?

That can be a tricky question these days.

I think it's an easy question.

A woman is an adult who identifies as a woman.

[Grigoris]

How many genders are described in Abhidharma?

None. It just talks about the "material phenomenona of sex".

So it describes what it means for a body to be a specifically male or female one.

This is distinct from the question of what it is for a person to be a man. I'm curious to know if Abhidharma can capture the experience of not fitting into either categories "man" or "woman" in a tidy fashion, or the experience of being a woman but having a male body or being a man but having a female body.

manhood is a social construction. it's built up in different ways in different contexts, and all of them are full of contradictions.

I think it is telling that the Buddha and the Abhidharma do not waste time in discussing gender differences, race differences, etc...

[DGA]

A woman is an adult who identifies as a woman.

Why not? If Ms Jenner says she's a woman, I take her word for it.

I wouldn't loan her my truck, though. Not because she's a woman, but because... er... I'm not saying she's a terrible driver because she's a woman, but I am saying she is a woman and a terrible driver

[Malcolm]

None. It just talks about the "material phenomenona of sex".

So it describes what it means for a body to be a specifically male or female one.

This is distinct from the question of what it is for a person to be a man. I'm curious to know if Abhidharma can capture the experience of not fitting into either categories "man" or "woman" in a tidy fashion, or the experience of being a woman but having a male body or being a man but having a female body.

manhood is a social construction. it's built up in different ways in different contexts, and all of them are full of contradictions.

I think it is telling that the Buddha and the Abhidharma do not waste time in discussing gender differences, race differences, etc...

Actually, there is quite a bit of discussion of gender in the Kośabhaṣyaṃ since it bears on gender, and gender is a concern in ordination. There are several gender orientations that were barred from ordination. Also blond people were barred from ordination as well, since in India people with blond hair were considered demonic.

[Queequeg]

Also blond people were barred from ordination as well, since in India people with blond hair were considered demonic.

See, man? Buddhists were hip to that white devil long before the Hon. Elijah Muhamed started warning us.

[Queequeg]

A woman is an adult who identifies as a woman.

Why not? If Ms Jenner says she's a woman, I take her word for it.

What do you make of Rachel Dolezal? Is she black because she says so?

[Malcolm]

A woman is an adult who identifies as a woman.

Why not? If Ms Jenner says she's a woman, I take her word for it.

I wouldn't loan her my truck, though. Not because she's a woman, but because... er... I'm not saying she's a terrible driver because she's a woman, but I am saying she is a woman and a terrible driver

From a Buddhist point of view, one cannot change one's gender. It is something one is born with, it is a portion of one's viapaka, ripened karma, and one cannot alter it by cutting, sewing, or use of prosthetics. One is born either male, female, or nonbinary (with it's five subcategories). The impulse to alter one's apparent gender is itself a sign that one has been born with a nonbinary gender indriya.

[Grigoris]

Actually, there is quite a bit of discussion of gender in the Kośabhaṣyaṃ since it bears on gender, and gender is a concern in ordination. There are several gender orientations that were barred from ordination. Also blond people were barred from ordination as well, since in India people with blond hair were considered demonic.

I have to admit that I have not dared to touch that one yet. I am currently slogging through his Abhidharmasamuccaya and haven't found anything in there yet either..

In other Abhidhamma and Abhidharma texts I have read, gender is not discussed.

Is the discussion in the Kosa related just to ordination, or to a wider analysis of the subject of gender?

[DGA]

Why not? If Ms Jenner says she's a woman, I take her word for it.

What do you make of Rachel Dolezal? Is she black because she says so?

OK, so I'm dumb enough to mansplain what the word "woman" means in a thread on masculinity, but I'm not so stupid as to go anywhere near the question of what it means to be black in the USA, or who gets to say who is black and who isn't. That's not my stuff.

The only thing I'll say about R Dolezal is that she's from Spokane which is a nice town. Really! I like Spokane a lot.

Padma Ling is a fine place to practice Dharma.

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2012/f ... -caper/#/0

[Mantrik]

Ths may be controversial. Good.

A man is someone born into the male gender. I don't care if they then decide to chop bits off or add bits and 'self-identify' as whatever they fancy. If they are psychologically traumatised as a male and wish to live as a female that's fine...but they are still a man, and none the better or worse for that.

Just as I found the PC brigade ridiculous (wanting to rename 'manual' and 'manager' as gender-biased for example) I now find the gender invention industry ridiculous.

You are what you were born as. If you want to live differently, you have no right to impose that on others and force them to put their rights beneath yours.

Allowing a burly 6 foot hairy guy in a dress to be on a women's hospital ward and to criticise women patients who complain about enforced shared nakedness etc is just plain wrong.

A person born male who is in a dress and thinks of himself as a woman is a man, with or without a penis, and should be given every freedom to self-identify as woman and wear female clothing..... but use the men's ward and men's toilets.

So, let's keep it simple. Gender in humans is almost always fixed at birth (a few have both sets of organs). The rest is lifestyle, 'orientation' or 'self-identification' and it is not right to impose it on others.

There is a sinister side to this. IN the UK our GP's are being asked to gather information on our gender 'orientation' and sexual preferences. Ostensibly just to gather raw data, it won't be long before anyone 'abnormal' finds insurance of all forms to be hugely expensive.

Yup, 'I'm a lumberjack and I'm OK....'

[Norwegian]

Why not? If Ms Jenner says she's a woman, I take her word for it.

I wouldn't loan her my truck, though. Not because she's a woman, but because... er... I'm not saying she's a terrible driver because she's a woman, but I am saying she is a woman and a terrible driver

From a Buddhist point of view, one cannot change one's gender. It is something one is born with, it is a portion of one's viapaka, ripened karma, and one cannot alter it by cutting, sewing, or use of prosthetics. One is born either male, female, or nonbinary (with it's five subcategories). The impulse to alter one's apparent gender is itself a sign that one has been born with a nonbinary gender indriya.

In some more radical extremist corners today, this Buddhist point of view would be regarded as hate-speech and as an act of violence...

[Queequeg]

Why not? If Ms Jenner says she's a woman, I take her word for it.

What do you make of Rachel Dolezal? Is she black because she says so?

OK, so I'm dumb enough to mansplain what the word "woman" means in a thread on masculinity, but I'm not so stupid as to go anywhere near the question of what it means to be black in the USA, or who gets to say who is black and who isn't. That's not my stuff.

The only thing I'll say about R Dolezal is that she's from Spokane which is a nice town. Really! I like Spokane a lot.

Padma Ling is a fine place to practice Dharma.

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2012/f ... -caper/#/0

LOL. I don't blame you... just following up on your statement...

Regarding the stolen canopy... dang pretas. May all beings be happy.

[Malcolm]

Actually, there is quite a bit of discussion of gender in the Kośabhaṣyaṃ since it bears on gender, and gender is a concern in ordination. There are several gender orientations that were barred from ordination. Also blond people were barred from ordination as well, since in India people with blond hair were considered demonic.

I have to admit that I have not dared to touch that one yet. I am currently slogging through his Abhidharmasamuccaya and haven't found anything in there yet either..

In other Abhidhamma and Abhidharma texts I have read, gender is not discussed.

Is the discussion in the Kosa related just to ordination, or to a wider analysis of the subject of gender?

Gender is principally discussed with regard to who is capable of holding the vows. The ancient Buddhists were basically of the opinion that nonbinary gendered people were incapable of being a basis for receiving Buddhist discipline. Jose Cabezon has a new book out on the subject, which should be very interesting, as he is a very talented scholar:

https://www.wisdompubs.org/book/sexuali ... n-buddhism

[Malcolm]

In some more radical extremist corners today, this Buddhist point of view would be regarded as hate-speech and as an act of violence...

In other parts of the world, just being a Buddhist may very well get you killed.

[Norwegian]

In some more radical extremist corners today, this Buddhist point of view would be regarded as hate-speech and as an act of violence...

In other parts of the world, just being a Buddhist may very well get you killed.

Indeed.