What is a Man?

Casual conversation between friends. Anything goes (almost).
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TharpaChodron
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Re: What is a Man?

Post by TharpaChodron » Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:22 am

DGA wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:47 am
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:22 pm

From a Buddhist point of view, one cannot change one's gender. It is something one is born with, it is a portion of one's viapaka, ripened karma, and one cannot alter it by cutting, sewing, or use of prosthetics. One is born either male, female, or nonbinary (with it's five subcategories). The impulse to alter one's apparent gender is itself a sign that one has been born with a nonbinary gender indriya.
Here we get into a lexical problem. In English, we have at the moment two categories. You're a man or you're a woman. We don't have the diction for describing oneself as, say, category 3 subtype C. We don't really have the words for it.

And in a sense, that's OK, because the definitions I proposed above are workable for purposes of public discourse and civil society. Is it a priority for Buddhists to insist that public policy coincides in all ways with the nuances of Buddhist thinking? It's not a priority for me, and I can say why if anyone cares to know.
There is a lexicon for it, albeit not often used. I've met people who refuse to be described in gender binary terms who prefer to be called "Zer". sounds strange, but it's actually a thing.

And just because society is ignorant about the differences between being gay and trans, doesn't mean everyone trans needs to identify as gay or vice versa gay kids be forced to identify as trans. Of course not. I'm going out on a limb, but I think most gay men have little interest in hooking up with trans males to females because they really aren't that interested in women. And they don't want to dress or appear like women. If I'm off base, I apologize, but that's what I have observed.

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Drenpa
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Re: What is a Man?

Post by Drenpa » Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:35 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:59 am
DGA wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:40 am
:coffee:

Earlier in this discussion, I proposed the following two definitions:

A man is an adult person who identifies as a man.

A woman is an adult person who identifies as a woman.

It seems to me that a discussion around gender is great but in light of recent posts I read at DW, including a few of my own, maybe we should consider a discussion on what it means to be an adult.

Well, perhaps we should start at the beginning and discuss what it means to be a human being.
It means being a slightly evolved ape with regards to our hardware, compared to other mammals. Look around you.

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Re: What is a Man?

Post by Ricky » Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:44 am

MiphamFan wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:29 am

Anyway like I said, I don't really care what people (adults) do with their bodies if it doesn't harm others, but I draw the line at 1) children, 2) using public funds for the procedure.
Yes.

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TharpaChodron
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Re: What is a Man?

Post by TharpaChodron » Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:51 am

MiphamFan wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:29 am
I don't care what people do with their bodies if it doesn't harm others, but I'd like to raise a few points.

1) There is a 45% suicide rate of post-op MtFs. Considering that the end-result of the procedure is what medically amounts to an open wound which doesn't look or function like a real vagina and which has to be dilated with an object for four hours daily for the rest of one's life, do you really think the suicide rate has to do with people ostracizing them rather than the immense pain, not to mention the regrets that accompany it, and loss of time and opportunities from the pain and need to dilate?

2) In view of the above, do you really think allowing children to start transitioning is moral? You are starting them on a path that leads to having to dilate their painful pseudo-vagina for four hours a day, meanwhile disrupting their natural cycle of puberty.

3) How different is gender dysphoria ultimately from otherkin, people who identify as dragons, vampires or aliens, some of whom actually also undergo surgical procedures to look more like those things? I'm not saying it's wrong, but just how different is it? Do you accord as much legitimacy to those subcultures as to transgenders?

Anyway like I said, I don't really care what people (adults) do with their bodies if it doesn't harm others, but I draw the line at 1) children, 2) using public funds for the procedure.
I'm not sure where you're getting your facts from, but 45%?!? And if it's true, I'd say it IS about societal acceptance, not physical pain and loss of time etc that causes those suicides.

As for children, the Los Angeles Children's Hospital has a pretty extensive and somewhat controversial program for treating trans kids. I don't have any personal experience, but from what I've heard there's a lot that goes into actually accepting clients before starting the process with them, and it is overseen by medical professionals, psychiatrists and with parental consent. Not to say it's right, I also would like to know more about how and when children are allowed to go through the procedures.

Regarding trans people the same as people who want to be vampires or unicorns, to me, that's about equivalent to the argument that accepting homosexuality is akin to allowing bestiality and pedophilia as life style choices. Do you think that gay rights are equivalent to pedophiliac and bestiality rights? Why or why not?

It's not merely a subculture, imo, it's a genuine medical issue that some people struggle with.

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Re: What is a Man?

Post by Quay » Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:32 am

MiphamFan wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:29 am
...3) How different is gender dysphoria ultimately from otherkin, people who identify as dragons, vampires or aliens....
Having problems with the gender you were born with and wanting to change your gender is a rather completely different thing from wanting to change your species. The former is possible the latter is not. And the differences between those are glaringly obvious if you take some time to study what gender is and what it means.

Then you could read the American Psychiatric Association's basic page on Gender Dysphoria:

https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-fam ... -dysphoria
Anyway like I said, I don't really care what people (adults) do with their bodies if it doesn't harm others, but I draw the line at 1) children, 2) using public funds for the procedure.
You contradict yourself because you do indeed care what some people do with some bodies. The prohibition against harming children is nearly universal though it is not often followed much in any society beyond a lot of platitudes and empty speech. However decrying the use of public funds for something you personally disapprove of is never effective. For instance, many millions of taxpayer dollars are spent on Viagra in the U.S. and I personally think that isn't very helpful. But I'm not going to argue against it because a lot of mostly men find a great deal of value in it and it appears to advance the general public good in some way. In contrast the very meager public funds spend directly on issues like Gender Dysphoria and Gender Reassignment hardly register in any budget. To single them out seems rather mean spirited.
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.

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Re: What is a Man?

Post by justsit » Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:01 am

TharpaChodron wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:51 am
I'm not sure where you're getting your facts from, but 45%?!? And if it's true, I'd say it IS about societal acceptance, not physical pain and loss of time etc that causes those suicides.

As for children, the Los Angeles Children's Hospital has a pretty extensive and somewhat controversial program for treating trans kids. I don't have any personal experience, but from what I've heard there's a lot that goes into actually accepting clients before starting the process with them, and it is overseen by medical professionals, psychiatrists and with parental consent. Not to say it's right, I also would like to know more about how and when children are allowed to go through the procedures.

Regarding trans people the same as people who want to be vampires or unicorns, to me, that's about equivalent to the argument that accepting homosexuality is akin to allowing bestiality and pedophilia as life style choices. Do you think that gay rights are equivalent to pedophiliac and bestiality rights? Why or why not?

It's not merely a subculture, imo, it's a genuine medical issue that some people struggle with.
:good:

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Re: What is a Man?

Post by justsit » Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:49 am

Obviously, there is a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding about gender issues. Words and concepts like sex, gender, and sexual orientation are conflated and used very imprecisely on a topic that really requires careful consideration and specificity in order to have meaningful discussion.

Additional terms that are used interchangeably - and frequently incorrectly - in discussion and in the media include transgender, transsexual, transvestite, drag queen, crossdresser. My guess is that very few posters here can clearly define and differentiate these without looking them up, and yet will have and publicly express strong opinions about them.

And sadly, the subject has been co-opted by political groups with particular agendas, further conflating the real issues - especially adequate physical and mental health care - with religious and political goals.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, the trans people I know, myself included, do not expect cis het and other non-trans people to understand how gender dysphoria manifests, nor do we expect everyone to agree with our actions or expressions in dealing with the very real suffering it entails. All we expect is to continue to be treated as regular human beings just the same as we were before transitioning.

The photo I posted upthread is a transgender man, born female. With the "Go to the bathroom of the genitalia you were born with" logic, he will use the women's room. And yes, he stands to pee.

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Re: What is a Man?

Post by MiphamFan » Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:15 am

Quay wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:32 am
MiphamFan wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:29 am
...3) How different is gender dysphoria ultimately from otherkin, people who identify as dragons, vampires or aliens....
Having problems with the gender you were born with and wanting to change your gender is a rather completely different thing from wanting to change your species. The former is possible the latter is not. And the differences between those are glaringly obvious if you take some time to study what gender is and what it means.

Then you could read the American Psychiatric Association's basic page on Gender Dysphoria:

https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-fam ... -dysphoria
Anyway like I said, I don't really care what people (adults) do with their bodies if it doesn't harm others, but I draw the line at 1) children, 2) using public funds for the procedure.
You contradict yourself because you do indeed care what some people do with some bodies. The prohibition against harming children is nearly universal though it is not often followed much in any society beyond a lot of platitudes and empty speech. However decrying the use of public funds for something you personally disapprove of is never effective. For instance, many millions of taxpayer dollars are spent on Viagra in the U.S. and I personally think that isn't very helpful. But I'm not going to argue against it because a lot of mostly men find a great deal of value in it and it appears to advance the general public good in some way. In contrast the very meager public funds spend directly on issues like Gender Dysphoria and Gender Reassignment hardly register in any budget. To single them out seems rather mean spirited.
1) The point of my graphic description of the procedure and high resulting suicide rate is to question whether surgery is really how gender dysphoria is best treated. If we had a magical scifi device which allows people to switch genders with functioning parts like in the movie Elysium I would raise no objections at all on this front. Maybe I'd try being a female myself for a while just to understand better what it's like. Creating a pseudo-vagina that consumes four hours a day to maintain and causes immense pain is something else. I would certainly not fund viagra if I were an absolute monarch though.

2) I clarified that I don't care what ADULTS do with their bodies on their own dime. I have some misgivings about it but I'm not going to stop them. W.r.t children, they can't drink, vote or even have sex and you expect them to be able to choose something that is irrevocable and will shut down their natural cycle of puberty? I also have nothing against vampire, alien etc-wannabes. I would patronize businesses run by transgenders, aliens and vampires if they provided what I wanted.

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Re: What is a Man?

Post by Simon E. » Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:48 am

MiphamFan wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:29 am
I don't care what people do with their bodies if it doesn't harm others, but I'd like to raise a few points.

1) There is a 45% suicide rate of post-op MtFs. Considering that the end-result of the procedure is what medically amounts to an open wound which doesn't look or function like a real vagina and which has to be dilated with an object for four hours daily for the rest of one's life, do you really think the suicide rate has to do with people ostracizing them rather than the immense pain, not to mention the regrets that accompany it, and loss of time and opportunities from the pain and need to dilate?

2) In view of the above, do you really think allowing children to start transitioning is moral? You are starting them on a path that leads to having to dilate their painful pseudo-vagina for four hours a day, meanwhile disrupting their natural cycle of puberty.

3) How different is gender dysphoria ultimately from otherkin, people who identify as dragons, vampires or aliens, some of whom actually also undergo surgical procedures to look more like those things? I'm not saying it's wrong, but just how different is it? Do you accord as much legitimacy to those subcultures as to transgenders?

Anyway like I said, I don't really care what people (adults) do with their bodies if it doesn't harm others, but I draw the line at 1) children, 2) using public funds for the procedure.
As one of a tiny minority of mental health professionals on this forum who have had actual experience of responding to those with body dysmorphias, this is so inhumane, and so ignorant of the reality, and so bloody lacking in basic compassion that I will not be drawn into a discussion with you on the subject.
I am not 'no platforming' you. I am no platforming myself.

I have seen more aware and compassionate and informed discussions of the subject on conservative websites.
Taking advantage of a temporary situation. Back for a short time only folks.

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Re: What is a Man?

Post by MiphamFan » Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:52 am

It seems that a lot of you actually think I was making a dig at vampires, aliens etc. Not at all, I actually am less bigoted than any of you -- you think these people are jokes, I am perfectly willing to accord them the respect I would give to any other human.

The facts I gave about the MtF procedure can be easily looked up. I am admittedly not sure about the suicide rate, but it definitely is higher than the cisgendered population: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/articl ... ne.0016885
Last edited by Grigoris on Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed metadiscussion

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Re: What is a Man?

Post by Grigoris » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:16 am

I would like to remind people not to mention details of Private Messages in public without first getting the author's permission. It is rude and against the Terms of Service.

Thank you.
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Re: What is a Man?

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:50 am

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:56 pm
A foreman in one of the locals apparently was a 6'2" man who wore dresses. I don't know what the PC nomenclature is for that.
Afaik one still says "transvestite" if they are simply dressing up. Particularly if they don't "identify" as women.

Eddie Izzard, for instance, is a transvestite, not trans.

But in the instance of the local in question, wanting to use the women's room seems more like a trans thing than a transvestite thing.

Transvestites just like to play dress-up. Trans people "are" the other gender, at least as far as they are concerned.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

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Re: What is a Man?

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:05 pm

TharpaChodron wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:22 am
DGA wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:47 am
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:22 pm

From a Buddhist point of view, one cannot change one's gender. It is something one is born with, it is a portion of one's viapaka, ripened karma, and one cannot alter it by cutting, sewing, or use of prosthetics. One is born either male, female, or nonbinary (with it's five subcategories). The impulse to alter one's apparent gender is itself a sign that one has been born with a nonbinary gender indriya.
Here we get into a lexical problem. In English, we have at the moment two categories. You're a man or you're a woman. We don't have the diction for describing oneself as, say, category 3 subtype C. We don't really have the words for it.

And in a sense, that's OK, because the definitions I proposed above are workable for purposes of public discourse and civil society. Is it a priority for Buddhists to insist that public policy coincides in all ways with the nuances of Buddhist thinking? It's not a priority for me, and I can say why if anyone cares to know.
There is a lexicon for it, albeit not often used. I've met people who refuse to be described in gender binary terms who prefer to be called "Zer". sounds strange, but it's actually a thing.
The worst new pronouns are definitely "hym" and "hir".
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

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Re: What is a Man?

Post by Queequeg » Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:07 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:50 am
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:56 pm
A foreman in one of the locals apparently was a 6'2" man who wore dresses. I don't know what the PC nomenclature is for that.
Afaik one still says "transvestite" if they are simply dressing up. Particularly if they don't "identify" as women.

Eddie Izzard, for instance, is a transvestite, not trans.

But in the instance of the local in question, wanting to use the women's room seems more like a trans thing than a transvestite thing.

Transvestites just like to play dress-up. Trans people "are" the other gender, at least as far as they are concerned.
Thanks for clearing that up... I knew there was a line there that I couldn't quite place.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Coëmgenu
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Re: What is a Man?

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:18 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:07 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:50 am
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:56 pm
A foreman in one of the locals apparently was a 6'2" man who wore dresses. I don't know what the PC nomenclature is for that.
Afaik one still says "transvestite" if they are simply dressing up. Particularly if they don't "identify" as women.

Eddie Izzard, for instance, is a transvestite, not trans.

But in the instance of the local in question, wanting to use the women's room seems more like a trans thing than a transvestite thing.

Transvestites just like to play dress-up. Trans people "are" the other gender, at least as far as they are concerned.
Thanks for clearing that up... I knew there was a line there that I couldn't quite place.
Afaik.

世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

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Re: What is a Man?

Post by Nemo » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:33 am

I am always in awe of how strong people's opinion are on the sexuality of people they will never have sex with. Particularly of people they don't even fancy. Spending so much time on stuff that is none of your business. If doing X makes you happy I don't have a strong opinion unless you hurt someone or whatever. It's like judging those sick freaks who like Marmite. :crazy:

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Re: What is a Man?

Post by Ricky » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:40 am

Nemo wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:33 am
I am always in awe of how strong people's opinion are on the sexuality of people they will never have sex with. Particularly of people they don't even fancy. Spending so much time on stuff that is none of your business. If doing X makes you happy I don't have a strong opinion unless you hurt someone or whatever. It's like judging those sick freaks who like Marmite. :crazy:
I don't have a problem with it as long as tax dollars aren't used for these surgeries.

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Re: What is a Man?

Post by Kunga Lhadzom » Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:28 am

Nemo wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:33 am
those sick freaks who like Marmite.
At least we got the balls to try it :smile:
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Re: What is a Man?

Post by justsit » Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:34 am

Ricky wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:40 am
Nemo wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:33 am
I am always in awe of how strong people's opinion are on the sexuality of people they will never have sex with. Particularly of people they don't even fancy. Spending so much time on stuff that is none of your business. If doing X makes you happy I don't have a strong opinion unless you hurt someone or whatever. It's like judging those sick freaks who like Marmite. :crazy:
I don't have a problem with it as long as tax dollars aren't used for these surgeries.
Very little to be concerned with there. The dollar amounts are absolutely miniscule in relation to say, the tax dollar amounts spent on Viagra for the military ($84 MILLION in 2014), nuclear weapons, degradation of the environment, free health care for members of Congress, Presidential golfing trips, and about a million other things. Many private insurance companies now pay for trans care, so public dollars are not involved; and many trans persons do not have any surgery.

Ricky
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Re: What is a Man?

Post by Ricky » Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:27 am

justsit wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:34 am
Ricky wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:40 am
Nemo wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:33 am
I am always in awe of how strong people's opinion are on the sexuality of people they will never have sex with. Particularly of people they don't even fancy. Spending so much time on stuff that is none of your business. If doing X makes you happy I don't have a strong opinion unless you hurt someone or whatever. It's like judging those sick freaks who like Marmite. :crazy:
I don't have a problem with it as long as tax dollars aren't used for these surgeries.
Very little to be concerned with there. The dollar amounts are absolutely miniscule in relation to say, the tax dollar amounts spent on Viagra for the military ($84 MILLION in 2014), nuclear weapons, degradation of the environment, free health care for members of Congress, Presidential golfing trips, and about a million other things. Many private insurance companies now pay for trans care, so public dollars are not involved; and many trans persons do not have any surgery.
Plenty of wasteful spending that's for sure. A big economic collapse is in the making.

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