What is a Man?

Casual conversation between friends. Anything goes (almost).
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weitsicht
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Re: What is a Man?

Post by weitsicht » Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:49 am

MIND’S ULTIMATE NATURE: POEM BY DZONGSAR KHYENTSE RINPOCHE

Mind’s ultimate nature, emptiness endowed with vividness,
I was told is the real Buddha.
Recognizing this should help me
Not to be stuck with thoughts of hierarchy.

Mind’s ultimate nature, its emptiness aspect,
I was told is the real Dharma.
Recognizing this should help me
Not to be stuck with thoughts of political correctness.

Mind’s ultimate nature, its vivid aspect,
I was told is the real Sangha.
Recognizing this should help me
Not to be stuck with thoughts of equal rights.

One cannot disassociate emptiness from vividness.
This inseparability I was told is the Guru.
Recognizing this should help me
Not to be stuck with depending on chauvinist lamas.

This nature of mind has never been stained by duality,
This stainlessness I was told is the deity.
Recognizing this should help me
Not to be stuck with the categories of gender or culture.

This nature of mind is spontaneously present.
That spontaneity I was told is the dakini aspect.
Recognizing this should help me
Not to be stuck with fear of being sued.
(Emphasis mine)
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: What is a Man?

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:09 pm

VIMALAKIRTI NIRDESA SUTRA
...
Furthermore, reverend Sariputra, all the splendors of the abodes of the gods and all the splendors of the fields of the Buddhas shine forth in this house. That is the eighth strange and wonderful thing.

Reverend Sariputra, these eight strange and wonderful things are seen in this house. Who then, seeing such inconceivable things, would believe the teaching of the disciples?

Sariputra: Goddess, what prevents you from transforming yourself out of your female state?

Goddess: Although I have sought my "female state" for these twelve years, I have not yet found it. Reverend Sariputra, if a magician were to incarnate a woman by magic, would you ask her, "What prevents you from transforming yourself out of your female state?"

Sariputra: No! Such a woman would not really exist, so what would there be to transform?

Goddess: Just so, reverend Sariputra, all things do not really exist. Now, would you think, "What prevents one whose nature is that of a magical incarnation from transforming herself out of her female state?"

Thereupon, the goddess employed her magical power to cause the elder Sariputra to appear in her form and to cause herself to appear in his form. Then the goddess, transformed into Sariputra, said to Sariputra, transformed into a goddess, "Reverend Sariputra, what prevents you from transforming yourself out of your female state?"

And Sariputra, transformed into the goddess, replied, "I no longer appear in the form of a male! My body has changed into the body of a woman! I do not know what to transform!"

The goddess continued, "If the elder could again change out of the female state, then all women could also change out of their female states. All women appear in the form of women in just the same way

as the elder appears in the form of a woman. While they are not women in reality, they appear in the form of women. With this in mind, the Buddha said, 'In all things, there is neither male nor female.'"

Then, the goddess released her magical power and each returned to his ordinary form. She then said to him, "Reverend Sariputra, what have you done with your female form?"

Sariputra: I neither made it nor did I change it.

Goddess: Just so, all things are neither made nor changed, and that they are not made and not changed, that is the teaching of the Buddha.

http://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/F ... akirti.htm

:anjali:
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. https://translate.google.com.br/

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/

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Grigoris
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Re: What is a Man?

Post by Grigoris » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:30 pm

https://www.facebook.com/wech.info/vide ... 246599720/

Say hello to NongRose, masculine woman or feminine man?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Ricky
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Re: What is a Man?

Post by Ricky » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:45 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:30 pm
https://www.facebook.com/wech.info/vide ... 246599720/

Say hello to NongRose, masculine woman or feminine man?
wtf :rolling:

Ricky
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Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:39 pm

Re: What is a Man?

Post by Ricky » Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:42 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:35 pm

I would be nervous that I would have to meet his little friend.

DGA
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Re: What is a Man?

Post by DGA » Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:40 am

:coffee:

Earlier in this discussion, I proposed the following two definitions:

A man is an adult person who identifies as a man.

A woman is an adult person who identifies as a woman.

It seems to me that a discussion around gender is great but in light of recent posts I read at DW, including a few of my own, maybe we should consider a discussion on what it means to be an adult.

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Re: What is a Man?

Post by DGA » Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:47 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:22 pm

From a Buddhist point of view, one cannot change one's gender. It is something one is born with, it is a portion of one's viapaka, ripened karma, and one cannot alter it by cutting, sewing, or use of prosthetics. One is born either male, female, or nonbinary (with it's five subcategories). The impulse to alter one's apparent gender is itself a sign that one has been born with a nonbinary gender indriya.
Here we get into a lexical problem. In English, we have at the moment two categories. You're a man or you're a woman. We don't have the diction for describing oneself as, say, category 3 subtype C. We don't really have the words for it.

And in a sense, that's OK, because the definitions I proposed above are workable for purposes of public discourse and civil society. Is it a priority for Buddhists to insist that public policy coincides in all ways with the nuances of Buddhist thinking? It's not a priority for me, and I can say why if anyone cares to know.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: What is a Man?

Post by dzogchungpa » Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:59 am

DGA wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:40 am
:coffee:

Earlier in this discussion, I proposed the following two definitions:

A man is an adult person who identifies as a man.

A woman is an adult person who identifies as a woman.

It seems to me that a discussion around gender is great but in light of recent posts I read at DW, including a few of my own, maybe we should consider a discussion on what it means to be an adult.

Well, perhaps we should start at the beginning and discuss what it means to be a human being.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

DGA
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Re: What is a Man?

Post by DGA » Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:07 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:59 am
DGA wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:40 am
:coffee:

Earlier in this discussion, I proposed the following two definitions:

A man is an adult person who identifies as a man.

A woman is an adult person who identifies as a woman.

It seems to me that a discussion around gender is great but in light of recent posts I read at DW, including a few of my own, maybe we should consider a discussion on what it means to be an adult.

Well, perhaps we should start at the beginning and discuss what it means to be a human being.
So long as no one posts an Iggy Azalea video, I'm on board.

/curmudgeon

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The Cicada
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Re: What is a Man?

Post by The Cicada » Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:30 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:59 am
DGA wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:40 am
:coffee:

Earlier in this discussion, I proposed the following two definitions:

A man is an adult person who identifies as a man.

A woman is an adult person who identifies as a woman.

It seems to me that a discussion around gender is great but in light of recent posts I read at DW, including a few of my own, maybe we should consider a discussion on what it means to be an adult.

Well, perhaps we should start at the beginning and discuss what it means to be a human being.
Whatever it means to be a human, a human bean requires a lot of cultivation.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: What is a Man?

Post by dzogchungpa » Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:54 am

DGA wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:07 am
dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:59 am
Well, perhaps we should start at the beginning and discuss what it means to be a human being.
So long as no one posts an Iggy Azalea video, I'm on board.

/curmudgeon

Well, apparently we are not even allowed to refer to Iggy Azalea videos, so I don't think you have anything to worry about. :roll:
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

Motova
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Re: What is a Man?

Post by Motova » Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:01 am

DGA wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:07 am


So long as no one posts an Iggy Azalea video, I'm on board.

:techproblem:
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:58 pm
The four means of converting beings to the Dharma are generosity (which itself as four aspects: giving material gifts, conferring fearlessness, loving kindness and teaching Dharma), pleasant speech, conduct and setting an example.

Ricky
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Re: What is a Man?

Post by Ricky » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:06 am

DGA wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:40 am
:coffee:

Earlier in this discussion, I proposed the following two definitions:

A man is an adult person who identifies as a man.

A woman is an adult person who identifies as a woman.

It seems to me that a discussion around gender is great but in light of recent posts I read at DW, including a few of my own, maybe we should consider a discussion on what it means to be an adult.
More black guys should identify as white. Then that way they might be able to get shot less by the cops.
Image

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justsit
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Re: What is a Man?

Post by justsit » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:23 am

Is this a man?

Image

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TharpaChodron
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Re: What is a Man?

Post by TharpaChodron » Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:01 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:59 am
DGA wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:40 am
:coffee:

Earlier in this discussion, I proposed the following two definitions:

A man is an adult person who identifies as a man.

A woman is an adult person who identifies as a woman.

It seems to me that a discussion around gender is great but in light of recent posts I read at DW, including a few of my own, maybe we should consider a discussion on what it means to be an adult.

Well, perhaps we should start at the beginning and discuss what it means to be a human being.
I think that's what it means to be a real man or woman anyways. It comes down to being a good human being, doesn't it?

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Karma Dorje
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Re: What is a Man?

Post by Karma Dorje » Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:14 pm

DGA wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:47 am
Here we get into a lexical problem. In English, we have at the moment two categories. You're a man or you're a woman. We don't have the diction for describing oneself as, say, category 3 subtype C. We don't really have the words for it.

And in a sense, that's OK, because the definitions I proposed above are workable for purposes of public discourse and civil society. Is it a priority for Buddhists to insist that public policy coincides in all ways with the nuances of Buddhist thinking? It's not a priority for me, and I can say why if anyone cares to know.
We do have three categories in English. The third is called "intersex".

Outside of ordination, why would a buddhist care about the categories other than to protect those that are bullied on the basis of gender identification? There are so many other pernicious delusions that actually cause harm to others. I want public policy to protect those who are in harm's way, regardless of whether I understand their emotional constitution or gender identification.

It's simply none of my damn business how people choose to live their lives. I am far more concerned with the cisgender assholes in power that are destroying the planet and amassing wealth at the expense of everyone else even as they conform to social norms.
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava

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Monlam Tharchin
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Re: What is a Man?

Post by Monlam Tharchin » Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:14 pm

It's simply none of my damn business how people choose to live their lives
This is a luxury.

For starters, self-identifying one's sex makes sexual orientation meaningless.
You needn't look far in trans circles and YouTube videos to see gays and lesbians being called transphobic for having "genital preferences."
The resistance of lesbians to accept the penis as a female sex organ is termed "the cotton ceiling" and one big reason I'm rethinking things. Seem fringe? I thought so too until a straight male-bodied trans friend of mine adopted the term "lesbian".

And that gender non-conforming children (like I was) who used to grow up to be gay or lesbian are now being seen as the opposite sex and transed. That could have been me.

"Doesn't affect me" also isn't true for many women whose spaces, resources, and groups are being pressured into accepting newly minted women as both equally oppressed and as the new authorities on womanhood. The backlash against the Women's March is an example.

Not sure I have much more to add here since straight people are convinced self-identified sex is the new human rights frontier, and people are used to ignoring what women and gays have to say about things, including this.

I avoid political discussion on DW in general but wanted to at least add my voice as a gay man with a different experience.

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Malcolm
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Re: What is a Man?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:34 pm

Monlam Tharchin wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:14 pm

"Doesn't affect me" also isn't true for many women whose spaces, resources, and groups are being pressured into accepting newly minted women as both equally oppressed and as the new authorities on womanhood. The backlash against the Women's March is an example.
It is generational. About ten years ago, in my area a controversy was stirred up because a transwomen wanted to join the local moon lodge. Naturally, the older women-born women were uncomfortable with this. But the younger women demanded they allow this person to attend because she self-identified as female and had undergone surgery. This kind of issue has plagued at women's festivals, immortalized in an episode of Transparent where Maura Pfefferman is not allowed to attend the Idlewild Womyn's Music Festival, but has to hang out at the transcamp.

Genesis P. Orridge-Breyer's project of breaking gender may be of interest to some.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: What is a Man?

Post by DGA » Fri Feb 02, 2018 1:49 am

Karma Dorje wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:14 pm
DGA wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:47 am
Here we get into a lexical problem. In English, we have at the moment two categories. You're a man or you're a woman. We don't have the diction for describing oneself as, say, category 3 subtype C. We don't really have the words for it.

And in a sense, that's OK, because the definitions I proposed above are workable for purposes of public discourse and civil society. Is it a priority for Buddhists to insist that public policy coincides in all ways with the nuances of Buddhist thinking? It's not a priority for me, and I can say why if anyone cares to know.
We do have three categories in English. The third is called "intersex".
Yes, that's true, but is there a third pronoun available for a third category of persons in English? No. More importantly, think of the ways in which the binary of male/female or man/woman is written into the administration of justice, the administration of persons, employment, recreation, even micturation. There are two boxes on the form you fill out when a baby is born and you want to request a birth certificate, not three. That's the point I was trying to get at.
Outside of ordination, why would a buddhist care about the categories other than to protect those that are bullied on the basis of gender identification? There are so many other pernicious delusions that actually cause harm to others. I want public policy to protect those who are in harm's way, regardless of whether I understand their emotional constitution or gender identification.

It's simply none of my damn business how people choose to live their lives. I am far more concerned with the cisgender assholes in power that are destroying the planet and amassing wealth at the expense of everyone else even as they conform to social norms.
On these points, we agree.

MiphamFan
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Re: What is a Man?

Post by MiphamFan » Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:29 am

I don't care what people do with their bodies if it doesn't harm others, but I'd like to raise a few points.

1) There is a 45% suicide rate of post-op MtFs. Considering that the end-result of the procedure is what medically amounts to an open wound which doesn't look or function like a real vagina and which has to be dilated with an object for four hours daily for the rest of one's life, do you really think the suicide rate has to do with people ostracizing them rather than the immense pain, not to mention the regrets that accompany it, and loss of time and opportunities from the pain and need to dilate?

2) In view of the above, do you really think allowing children to start transitioning is moral? You are starting them on a path that leads to having to dilate their painful pseudo-vagina for four hours a day, meanwhile disrupting their natural cycle of puberty.

3) How different is gender dysphoria ultimately from otherkin, people who identify as dragons, vampires or aliens, some of whom actually also undergo surgical procedures to look more like those things? I'm not saying it's wrong, but just how different is it? Do you accord as much legitimacy to those subcultures as to transgenders?

Anyway like I said, I don't really care what people (adults) do with their bodies if it doesn't harm others, but I draw the line at 1) children, 2) using public funds for the procedure.

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