What is a Woman?

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dzogchungpa
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What is a Woman?

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:08 am

Split from "What is a Man" thread.
Another good question is: What is a "real woman"?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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TharpaChodron
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Re: What is a Woman?

Post by TharpaChodron » Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:41 am

I think all women are "real women." But some women are biologically female, and some identify as women but don't have the plumbing.

The concept of a "real woman" seems meant as a way to control and negate the totality of the female experience. You don't have to be popping out children or a good housewife to be a real woman. Who makes up these societal rules of who is or isn't a real woman, anyways?

That said, you know a woman, or man, when you meet them. It's quite obvious, usually...

This whole "babe.net" thing does have me concerned, though. I'm seeing feminism turn into some sort of shallow meanness that I don't feel is truly what "real women" should be engaged in. It's like a twisted version of Seventeen magazine where base emotions are elevated into a truly nihilistic version of the female mentality.

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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: What is a Woman?

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:24 am

VIMALAKIRTI NIRDESA SUTRA
...
Furthermore, reverend Sariputra, all the splendors of the abodes of the gods and all the splendors of the fields of the Buddhas shine forth in this house. That is the eighth strange and wonderful thing.

Reverend Sariputra, these eight strange and wonderful things are seen in this house. Who then, seeing such inconceivable things, would believe the teaching of the disciples?

Sariputra: Goddess, what prevents you from transforming yourself out of your female state?

Goddess: Although I have sought my "female state" for these twelve years, I have not yet found it. Reverend Sariputra, if a magician were to incarnate a woman by magic, would you ask her, "What prevents you from transforming yourself out of your female state?"

Sariputra: No! Such a woman would not really exist, so what would there be to transform?

Goddess: Just so, reverend Sariputra, all things do not really exist. Now, would you think, "What prevents one whose nature is that of a magical incarnation from transforming herself out of her female state?"

Thereupon, the goddess employed her magical power to cause the elder Sariputra to appear in her form and to cause herself to appear in his form. Then the goddess, transformed into Sariputra, said to Sariputra, transformed into a goddess, "Reverend Sariputra, what prevents you from transforming yourself out of your female state?"

And Sariputra, transformed into the goddess, replied, "I no longer appear in the form of a male! My body has changed into the body of a woman! I do not know what to transform!"

The goddess continued, "If the elder could again change out of the female state, then all women could also change out of their female states. All women appear in the form of women in just the same way

as the elder appears in the form of a woman. While they are not women in reality, they appear in the form of women. With this in mind, the Buddha said, 'In all things, there is neither male nor female.'"

Then, the goddess released her magical power and each returned to his ordinary form. She then said to him, "Reverend Sariputra, what have you done with your female form?"

Sariputra: I neither made it nor did I change it.

Goddess: Just so, all things are neither made nor changed, and that they are not made and not changed, that is the teaching of the Buddha.
...
http://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/F ... akirti.htm

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Queequeg
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Re: What is a Woman?

Post by Queequeg » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:36 pm

TharpaChodron wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:41 am
I think all women are "real women." But some women are biologically female, and some identify as women but don't have the plumbing.

The concept of a "real woman" seems meant as a way to control and negate the totality of the female experience. You don't have to be popping out children or a good housewife to be a real woman. Who makes up these societal rules of who is or isn't a real woman, anyways?

That said, you know a woman, or man, when you meet them. It's quite obvious, usually...
I know that these words, "Man" and "Woman", are in flux in terms of their meaning. If I'm reading correctly, the term "woman" is not a biological reference, but rather something else? Do you mind expanding on that? Not to put you on the spot... there aren't many active female DharmaWheelers so by default, you're nominated as spokeswoman...
This whole "babe.net" thing does have me concerned, though. I'm seeing feminism turn into some sort of shallow meanness that I don't feel is truly what "real women" should be engaged in. It's like a twisted version of Seventeen magazine where base emotions are elevated into a truly nihilistic version of the female mentality.
That looks like the chick version of identity based indignation that the kids are infected with these days.

Holy cow, does this generation need a heavy dose of anatman teachings to mellow out a little. This shit is getting old, fast.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Re: What is a Woman?

Post by TharpaChodron » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:19 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:36 pm
TharpaChodron wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:41 am
I think all women are "real women." But some women are biologically female, and some identify as women but don't have the plumbing.

The concept of a "real woman" seems meant as a way to control and negate the totality of the female experience. You don't have to be popping out children or a good housewife to be a real woman. Who makes up these societal rules of who is or isn't a real woman, anyways?

That said, you know a woman, or man, when you meet them. It's quite obvious, usually...
I know that these words, "Man" and "Woman", are in flux in terms of their meaning. If I'm reading correctly, the term "woman" is not a biological reference, but rather something else? Do you mind expanding on that? Not to put you on the spot... there aren't many active female DharmaWheelers so by default, you're nominated as spokeswoman...
This whole "babe.net" thing does have me concerned, though. I'm seeing feminism turn into some sort of shallow meanness that I don't feel is truly what "real women" should be engaged in. It's like a twisted version of Seventeen magazine where base emotions are elevated into a truly nihilistic version of the female mentality.
That looks like the chick version of identity based indignation that the kids are infected with these days.

Holy cow, does this generation need a heavy dose of anatman teachings to mellow out a little. This shit is getting old, fast.
Yeah, I'm no expert (obviously) but I think gender identity is a bit fluid. I used to work in a homeless shelter for youth in Hollywood, we had a lot of kids who were going through the whole gender dysphoria thing. It was hardly what I would call a "choice" to end up homeless, unable to find a job, alientated from family etc.

We started putting the male transgenders who identified as females with the females in the girls housing. We never had any issues, tbh. It seems oftentimes girls have less problems with accepting gender is not just a matter of biology than many men do.

Anyways, maybe I'm focusing on the wrong part of yours or the OP question?

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Re: What is a Woman?

Post by Queequeg » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:29 pm

TharpaChodron wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:19 pm
Anyways, maybe I'm focusing on the wrong part of yours or the OP question?
I can't speak for others, but I thought this would be an open ended discussion. A companion to the "What is a Man" thread.

I have struggled with race identity issues so I can relate to an extent to people with gender identity issues, but I have no real idea what's going on. My approach to the subject is closer to what you wrote above along the lines, "Woman: I know her when I see her." Adam's apples, knees and hands get in the way of my seeing the woman in some people, but... I dunno. My hangups.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Matt J
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Re: What is a Woman?

Post by Matt J » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:44 pm

Sort of ironic OP for a Buddhist forum given, you know, emptiness.
"The essence of meditation practice is to let go of all your expectations about meditation. All the qualities of your natural mind -- peace, openness, relaxation, and clarity -- are present in your mind just as it is. You don't have to do anything different. You don't have to shift or change your awareness. All you have to do while observing your mind is to recognize the qualities it already has."
--- Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche

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Queequeg
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Re: What is a Woman?

Post by Queequeg » Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:59 pm

Matt J wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:44 pm
Sort of ironic OP for a Buddhist forum given, you know, emptiness.
Not really, cause, you know, dependent origination.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Re: What is a Woman?

Post by Ayu » Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:33 pm

As far as I understand, a woman is a heap of Skandhas. She is her body, her senses, emotions, her thoughts, her conciousness - and at the same time she is NOT her body, senses, emotions, thoughts and conciousness. Just the same as a man. Empty. Consisting of names that do not point out what s/he is.
I have decided to stick with love.
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Re: What is a Woman?

Post by Ricky » Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:20 am

An individual who is born with female genitalia.

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justsit
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Re: What is a Woman?

Post by justsit » Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:45 am

Ricky wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:20 am
An individual who is born with female genitalia.
:popcorn:

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Kunga Lhadzom
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Re: What is a Woman?

Post by Kunga Lhadzom » Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:10 am

justsit wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:45 am
Ricky wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:20 am
An individual who is born with female genitalia.
:popcorn:

A female baby is born with female genitalia.....is she a woman ??????
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TharpaChodron
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Re: What is a Woman?

Post by TharpaChodron » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:28 am

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:29 pm
TharpaChodron wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:19 pm
Anyways, maybe I'm focusing on the wrong part of yours or the OP question?
I can't speak for others, but I thought this would be an open ended discussion. A companion to the "What is a Man" thread.

I have struggled with race identity issues so I can relate to an extent to people with gender identity issues, but I have no real idea what's going on. My approach to the subject is closer to what you wrote above along the lines, "Woman: I know her when I see her." Adam's apples, knees and hands get in the way of my seeing the woman in some people, but... I dunno. My hangups.
I have the same hang ups. Anyone could call themselves whatever they want, but in truth, I'm more discriminating than my ideals.

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Re: What is a Woman?

Post by Grigoris » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:05 pm

TharpaChodron wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:28 am
I have the same hang ups. Anyone could call themselves whatever they want, but in truth, I'm more discriminating than my ideals.
I disagree. If everybody did this it would make communication impossible. Imagine if an idiot could call themselves intelligent and be allowed to get away with it. And now imagine that idiot as president of the U$. Doesn't take much imagination, I know... :tongue:

Defined categories are necessary for social functioning.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: What is a Woman?

Post by Ayu » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:31 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:05 pm
Defined categories are necessary for social functioning.
Yes, but... The defined categories are too narrow. Nearly nobody fits into them.
I have decided to stick with love.
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Re: What is a Woman?

Post by Grigoris » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:41 pm

Ayu wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:31 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:05 pm
Defined categories are necessary for social functioning.
Yes, but... The defined categories are too narrow. Nearly nobody fits into them.
XX chromosome woman, XY chromosome man. That is if we are talking sex. No matter how many bits one adds or subtracts, this basic characteristic remains unchanged.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: What is a Woman?

Post by Kunga Lhadzom » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:54 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:41 pm
XX chromosome woman, XY chromosome man. That is if we are talking sex. No matter how many bits one adds or subtracts, this basic characteristic remains unchanged.
XX chromosome = Female
XY chromosome =Male

I think it's opinion that labels one in the category of MAN/WOMAN

Example :
I wouldn't call someone a man that abuses women. I wouldn't call someone a woman that
abuses men.

So i guess it sounds like an honor to recieve the title of MAN /WOMAN.
There is initiation into manhood/womanhood.
It also varies from culture to culture. ...
The Universe flowing through my veins...stars falling from my eyes......rocks rolling in my head...lemon juice dripping down my chin....

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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: What is a Woman?

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:16 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:41 pm
Ayu wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:31 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:05 pm
Defined categories are necessary for social functioning.
Yes, but... The defined categories are too narrow. Nearly nobody fits into them.
XX chromosome woman, XY chromosome man. That is if we are talking sex. No matter how many bits one adds or subtracts, this basic characteristic remains unchanged.
A lot of unintended harm happens when people assume a Y chromosome makes a person a boy or a man and the lack of a Y chromosome makes a person a girl or a woman. For example, one physician educator on our Medical Advisory Board had the challenging experience of trying to calm a 23-year-old patient who had just been told by a resident that she was “really a man” because the resident had diagnosed the patient as having a Y chromosome and complete androgen insensitivity syndrome (CAIS).

It is true that in typical male development, the SRY gene on the tip of the Y chromosome helps to send the embryo down the masculine pathway. But more than the SRY is needed for sex determination and differentiation; for example, women with CAIS have the SRY gene but lack androgen receptors. In terms of hormone effects on their bodies (including their brains), women with CAIS have had much less “masculinization” than the average 46,XX woman because their cells do not respond to androgens.

Moreover, the SRY gene can be translocated onto an X chromosome (so that a 46,XX person may develop along a typical masculine pathway), and there are dozens of genes on chromosomes other than the X and the Y that contribute to sexual differentiation. And beyond the genes, a person’s sex development can be significantly influenced by environmental factors (including the maternal uterine environment in which the fetus developed).

So it is simply incorrect to think that you can tell a person’s sex just looking at whether he or she has a Y chromosome.

http://www.isna.org/faq/y_chromosome
Differences between men and women are more than the sum of their genes
http://theconversation.com/differences- ... enes-39490

Think gender comes down to X and Y chromosomes? Think again
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-d ... e24811543/


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Re: What is a Woman?

Post by Grigoris » Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:31 pm

Lucas Oliveira wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:16 pm
So it is simply incorrect to think that you can tell a person’s sex just looking at whether he or she has a Y chromosome.
Of course it is not the only factor, but it is a pretty decisive one.
Think gender comes down to X and Y chromosomes? Think again.
No I don't and I didn't say it did. Gender is a social/psychological construct, SEX is a physical/genetic one.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Grigoris
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Re: What is a Woman?

Post by Grigoris » Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:00 pm

Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:54 pm
XX chromosome = Female
XY chromosome =Male
You are quite right. My mistake.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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