What is a Woman?

Casual conversation between friends. Anything goes (almost).
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Nemo
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Re: What is a Woman?

Post by Nemo » Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:56 am

justsit wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:14 am
KathyLauren wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:00 am
Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:42 am
Let's not forget about hormones....estrogen & testosterone.... :stirthepot:
Indeed, let's not.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
Amen, sistahs. :thumbsup:
Indeed. I would highly recommend procuring some and trying out your lovers hormone profile. A caution though. Testosterone is somewhat addictive and perhaps the best cure for PMS. You may not wish to go back.

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KathyLauren
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Re: What is a Woman?

Post by KathyLauren » Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:01 am

Nemo wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:56 am
Indeed. I would highly recommend procuring some and trying out your lovers hormone profile. A caution though. Testosterone is somewhat addictive and perhaps the best cure for PMS. You may not wish to go back.
Actually, running a human brain on the wrong hormones typically produces unpleasant results, known as gender dysphoria. It's a bit like running a diesel engine on gasoline or vice versa.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy

DGA
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Re: What is a Woman?

Post by DGA » Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:21 am

I'm thankful to KathyLauren and justsit for patiently enduring some of the comments that have been made in this and other threads on the topic of gender, and contributing thoughtfully and knowledgeably.

Gratitude.

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justsit
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Re: What is a Woman?

Post by justsit » Mon Feb 05, 2018 3:11 am

Nemo wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:56 am
Indeed. I would highly recommend procuring some and trying out your lovers hormone profile. A caution though. Testosterone is somewhat addictive and perhaps the best cure for PMS. You may not wish to go back.
Since starting testosterone (I'm FTM) 2 1/2 years ago, the only thing I can say I dislike is losing my head hair. Meh.

My libido, however, is still running full speed ahead. Very interesting, I must say.

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justsit
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Re: What is a Woman?

Post by justsit » Mon Feb 05, 2018 3:22 am

DGA wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:21 am
I'm thankful to KathyLauren and justsit for patiently enduring some of the comments that have been made in this and other threads on the topic of gender, and contributing thoughtfully and knowledgeably.

Gratitude.
It's worth it to me to risk ridicule and disdain in order to try to help others understand gender issues a bit more clearly. There's so much misunderstanding, fear, and misinformation floating around; every opportunity to let people see that hey, trans people are not monsters, we're not pedophiles or rapists, we're just regular people trying to live our lives, is a plus.

Thanks to the mods and TPTB for allowing these discussions.

Jesse
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Re: What is a Woman?

Post by Jesse » Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:29 am

KathyLauren wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:09 pm
Jesse wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:14 am
Pretty simple...

Biologically a female is a biological entity with two X chromosomes. While a male has a XY chromosome combination. (Sorry, there are only two known sexes as far as biology is concerned.
No, real biologists know that it is a lot more complex than that. Here (from Scientific American magazine) is what is involved in the development of primary and secondary sex characteristics.

Image

Chromosomes are only the beginning, and a lot can change between the chromosome and the physical structures. Note that this does not even begin to address the experience of gender, which will be at least as complex again.

The idea that there are only two sexes or genders is a mental construct. Like all such constructs, it has no inherent existence. In fact, it has less existence, inherent or otherwise, than a lot of mental constructs, because this one does not conform to measurable reality. You are basically saying that there are no execptions to this construct, except for the exceptions. Biologists know that there are exceptions.

While the stereotype of the doctor whacking the bottom of a newborn baby and declaring "It's a boy!" or "It's a girl!" exists in the popular culture and in delivery rooms around the world, the medical and psychological professions recognize that gender - whether a person is a man or a woman - resides in the structure of the brain, not in the genitals.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
You obviously did not read what I wrote. You read the first line, and decided to post. As such I decided not to read your post.
The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call life which is required to be exchanged for it, immediately or in the long run.
-Henry David Thoreau

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KathyLauren
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Re: What is a Woman?

Post by KathyLauren » Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:06 pm

Jesse wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:29 am
You obviously did not read what I wrote. You read the first line, and decided to post. As such I decided not to read your post.
As a matter of fact, I did read all of your post. I am not surprised that you didn't read mine though.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy

Simon E.
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Re: What is a Woman?

Post by Simon E. » Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:52 pm

DGA wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:21 am
I'm thankful to KathyLauren and justsit for patiently enduring some of the comments that have been made in this and other threads on the topic of gender, and contributing thoughtfully and knowledgeably.

Gratitude.
Hear hear... :namaste:
Taking advantage of a temporary situation. Back for a short time only folks.

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Mantrik
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Re: What is a Woman?

Post by Mantrik » Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:20 pm

I'm waiting until the entire plumbing industry is told it may no longer talk about male and female connections or unions, as it may cause offence to valves. ;)
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Quay
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Re: What is a Woman?

Post by Quay » Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:38 pm

justsit wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 3:22 am
DGA wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:21 am
I'm thankful to KathyLauren and justsit for patiently enduring some of the comments that have been made in this and other threads on the topic of gender, and contributing thoughtfully and knowledgeably.

Gratitude.
It's worth it to me to risk ridicule and disdain in order to try to help others understand gender issues a bit more clearly. There's so much misunderstanding, fear, and misinformation floating around; every opportunity to let people see that hey, trans people are not monsters, we're not pedophiles or rapists, we're just regular people trying to live our lives, is a plus.

Thanks to the mods and TPTB for allowing these discussions.
Yes, thank you. As someone who is not cisgender, to use the current term, it is much appreciated.
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.

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Quay
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Re: What is a Woman?

Post by Quay » Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:39 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:20 pm
I'm waiting until the entire plumbing industry is told it may no longer talk about male and female connections or unions, as it may cause offence to valves. ;)
:roll:

Image
Last edited by Quay on Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.

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Dorje Shedrub
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Re: What is a Woman?

Post by Dorje Shedrub » Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:48 pm

Some people are XXY or other combos.
For as long as space endures
And for as long as living beings remain,
Until then may I, too, abide
To dispel the misery of the world.
- Shantideva, The Way of the Bodhisattva

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Kunga Lhadzom
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Re: What is a Woman?

Post by Kunga Lhadzom » Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:45 am

Nemo wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:56 am
justsit wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:14 am
KathyLauren wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:00 am

Indeed, let's not.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
Amen, sistahs. :thumbsup:
Indeed. I would highly recommend procuring some and trying out your lovers hormone profile. A caution though. Testosterone is somewhat addictive and perhaps the best cure for PMS. You may not wish to go back.

I thought about it, because my libido is almost zilch....and the guy I'm with is a (recovering) sex addict (talk about testosterone/addictive)...but the side effects for women to take supplemental testosterone is not worth the risk......i'll have to just stick with natural insemination .....as the other option ( :tongue: ) is not on my menu ......anymore......
The Universe flowing through my veins...stars falling from my eyes......rocks rolling in my head...lemon juice dripping down my chin....

https://drunklotus.blog

Jesse
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Re: What is a Woman?

Post by Jesse » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:47 am

KathyLauren wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:06 pm
Jesse wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:29 am
You obviously did not read what I wrote. You read the first line, and decided to post. As such I decided not to read your post.
As a matter of fact, I did read all of your post. I am not surprised that you didn't read mine though.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
I see, so you simply have comprehension issues.

So let's recap in a more simple format.
  • There are two biological genders. Dictated by chromosomes. Some hermaphrodite species, and even a few that can change their genders. However, we are still dealing with two genders, as well as genetic deformity.
  • There are some mutations which cause some animals to have odd chromosome combinations. However, these are not other genders, they are genetic anomalies(Mutations). Since these mutations serve no biological function as far as reproduction is concerned. Gender reduced to the most simple form is natures way of allowing species to spawn progeny.
  • Gender Identity is a completely separate thing from biological gender. There is no such thing as a static identity in any fashion, including gender.
That about sums it up.

What's being discussed about chromosome anomalies can be mostly summed up here:
https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/swyer ... definition

The article also makes it abundantly clear that this is a deformity, which comes with many burdens including having to remove tissue which is almost always cancerous, and the individuals having to undergo life-long hormone therapy so that their bodies function properly.

:reading:
The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call life which is required to be exchanged for it, immediately or in the long run.
-Henry David Thoreau

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KathyLauren
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Re: What is a Woman?

Post by KathyLauren » Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:08 am

Jesse wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:47 am
So let's recap in a more simple format.
Your response, like identities, has no inherent existence in ultimate reality, and can therefore be dismissed.

However, in the world of dependently arising phenomena, gender identity is not an arbitrary choice. It is rooted in biology. The brain has gender - biologists call it sexual dimorphism - and the gender of the brain determines a person's gender identity. Gender identity is not a choice. Your gender identity is determined by your brain structure.

Dimorphism in the brain occurs in several separate locations, and those locations are not necessarily consistent with each other. In a given individual, some or all of those dimorphisms may be male-typical, some or all may be female-typical, they may be a mixture, and some my be intermediate between male and female forms. Hence non-binary identities.

These structures in the brain, like all sexual dimorphisms in the human body except the gonads themselves, are determined by hormone levels during gestation, not by chromosomes.

The bottom line is that gender identity is something that we are born with, and it does not necessarily conform to genitals or chromosomes.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy

Simon E.
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Re: What is a Woman?

Post by Simon E. » Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:18 am

Jesse wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:29 am
KathyLauren wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:09 pm
Jesse wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:14 am
Pretty simple...

Biologically a female is a biological entity with two X chromosomes. While a male has a XY chromosome combination. (Sorry, there are only two known sexes as far as biology is concerned.
No, real biologists know that it is a lot more complex than that. Here (from Scientific American magazine) is what is involved in the development of primary and secondary sex characteristics.

Image

Chromosomes are only the beginning, and a lot can change between the chromosome and the physical structures. Note that this does not even begin to address the experience of gender, which will be at least as complex again.

The idea that there are only two sexes or genders is a mental construct. Like all such constructs, it has no inherent existence. In fact, it has less existence, inherent or otherwise, than a lot of mental constructs, because this one does not conform to measurable reality. You are basically saying that there are no execptions to this construct, except for the exceptions. Biologists know that there are exceptions.

While the stereotype of the doctor whacking the bottom of a newborn baby and declaring "It's a boy!" or "It's a girl!" exists in the popular culture and in delivery rooms around the world, the medical and psychological professions recognize that gender - whether a person is a man or a woman - resides in the structure of the brain, not in the genitals.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
You obviously did not read what I wrote. You read the first line, and decided to post. As such I decided not to read your post.
How is life for you currently Jesse? How are things?
Taking advantage of a temporary situation. Back for a short time only folks.

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Quay
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Re: What is a Woman?

Post by Quay » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:21 pm

Just to clear up some common misconceptions and ones still fostered on people by uninformed medical communities:
Jesse wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:47 am
[*]There are two biological genders...
No, there are three, the third being intersex, which can occur in any of the six known human chromosomal combinations, those being XO, XX, XXX, XY, XXY and XYY.

What's being discussed about chromosome anomalies can be mostly summed up here:
https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/swyer ... definition

The article also makes it abundantly clear that this is a deformity, which comes with many burdens including having to remove tissue which is almost always cancerous, and the individuals having to undergo life-long hormone therapy so that their bodies function properly.
The article is talking about a rare syndrome that affects 1 in 80,000 people and is not a statement on gender or sexual characteristics. In addition the article is dated and contains extraneous information to the point it raises credibility questions and certainly does not apply generally to the issues being discussed in this thread. For instance:

1. While some syndromes present functional problems they are not in an of themselves a deformity since that notion is based on an incorrect understanding of human anatomy and societal prejudice that demands conformity to only two apparent sexes.
2. Surgery is not necessary except to correct for basic function. What is still called "gender assignment" surgery or genital surgery is now seen as genital mutilation and totally unnecessary.
3. The idea that tissue has to be removed because it is "always cancerous" never had any basis in science or medicine and is now understood to simply be wrong.
4. Each individual situation is different and depending on which of the six chromosomal variations one has a person may or may not require hormone therapy either for a short time or a lifetime. Those who do require hormone therapy for a lifetime aren't much different from anyone else with a treatable chronic condition.
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.

Jesse
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Location: Virginia, USA

Re: What is a Woman?

Post by Jesse » Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:08 am

KathyLauren wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:08 am
Jesse wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:47 am
So let's recap in a more simple format.
Your response, like identities, has no inherent existence in ultimate reality, and can therefore be dismissed.
Again, I Stopped reading here.

Quay wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:21 pm
Just to clear up some common misconceptions and ones still fostered on people by uninformed medical communities:
Jesse wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:47 am
[*]There are two biological genders...
No, there are three, the third being intersex, which can occur in any of the six known human chromosomal combinations, those being XO, XX, XXX, XY, XXY and XYY.

What's being discussed about chromosome anomalies can be mostly summed up here:
https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/swyer ... definition

The article also makes it abundantly clear that this is a deformity, which comes with many burdens including having to remove tissue which is almost always cancerous, and the individuals having to undergo life-long hormone therapy so that their bodies function properly.
The article is talking about a rare syndrome that affects 1 in 80,000 people and is not a statement on gender or sexual characteristics. In addition the article is dated and contains extraneous information to the point it raises credibility questions and certainly does not apply generally to the issues being discussed in this thread. For instance:

1. While some syndromes present functional problems they are not in an of themselves a deformity since that notion is based on an incorrect understanding of human anatomy and societal prejudice that demands conformity to only two apparent sexes.
2. Surgery is not necessary except to correct for basic function. What is still called "gender assignment" surgery or genital surgery is now seen as genital mutilation and totally unnecessary.
3. The idea that tissue has to be removed because it is "always cancerous" never had any basis in science or medicine and is now understood to simply be wrong.
4. Each individual situation is different and depending on which of the six chromosomal variations one has a person may or may not require hormone therapy either for a short time or a lifetime. Those who do require hormone therapy for a lifetime aren't much different from anyone else with a treatable chronic condition.
It's nice and all that you purport to be more informed than the medical community while linking no relevant credible research, but I think I'll trust peer reviewed research.

Everything that you mention is a cultural advancement, and does not apply to basic biology. Biology is a science. For example if you are born with a male body, no matter how much you wish it; you can not bear children within your own body. Why? Because your body is male. (Male is a simple conceptual construct identifying a combination of genetic and chromosome combinations, and the resulting body structure.)

As far as biology is concerned, there are essentially two sexes. Male, and Female. Period.

Trying to impose social stances onto a science is about as ignorant as ignorant gets.

It's about as ignorant as trying to impose biology as a defacto stance to what applies to something like the mind, identity, and personality.

No matter the hormosone variations a person is born with there still remain two essential genders, and I would love for your to identity a brand new gender, because not only I, but the entire biology community, and hell humanity would be quite amazed.

PS (The name of the article is quite relevant.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_chromosome_disorders
The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call life which is required to be exchanged for it, immediately or in the long run.
-Henry David Thoreau

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KathyLauren
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Re: What is a Woman?

Post by KathyLauren » Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:31 am

Jesse wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:08 am
Again, I Stopped reading here.
Well, you are hardly going to become more informed whth that attitude, are you?

I should have expected that attitude from a man in a thread titled "What is a woman".

Om mani padme hum
Kathy

DGA
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Re: What is a Woman?

Post by DGA » Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:03 am

Jesse wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:08 am

It's nice and all that you purport to be more informed than the medical community while linking no relevant credible research, but I think I'll trust peer reviewed research.

Everything that you mention is a cultural advancement, and does not apply to basic biology. Biology is a science. For example if you are born with a male body, no matter how much you wish it; you can not bear children within your own body. Why? Because your body is male. (Male is a simple conceptual construct identifying a combination of genetic and chromosome combinations, and the resulting body structure.)

As far as biology is concerned, there are essentially two sexes. Male, and Female. Period.

Trying to impose social stances onto a science is about as ignorant as ignorant gets.

It's about as ignorant as trying to impose biology as a defacto stance to what applies to something like the mind, identity, and personality.

No matter the hormosone variations a person is born with there still remain two essential genders, and I would love for your to identity a brand new gender, because not only I, but the entire biology community, and hell humanity would be quite amazed.

PS (The name of the article is quite relevant.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_chromosome_disorders
Hi Jesse,

I work with biologists. I can say with confidence that you are holding to a somewhat idealistic and perhaps naive view of how science works. This leads to you hastily dismiss perspectives that don't correspond to your vision, and to misunderstand the claims that you yourself are trying to make.

I suggest you go back and read KathyLauren's posts, and Quay's too. Even if you disagree with them, you are likely to learn something from them.

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