Wiccan arts and the Mahayana

Casual conversation between friends. Anything goes (almost).
Jeff H
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Re: Wiccan arts and the Mahayana

Post by Jeff H » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:00 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:36 pm
You can just play D&D, imagine yourself an enlightened wizard and go to Alternative Music festivals (they dance naked). Might satisfy most of your wishes better than either Wicca and Vajrayana.

These are all wishes and fantasies that the self produces out of desire and wanting to be more special. Buddhism of all kinds is about letting go of all that stuff.
:good:
It's starting to sound like you're more interested in having an instant path to enlightenment readily available the moment you're done thrill-seeking. You're a kid, so go ahead and be a kid. You will learn many important things that way. When bodhichitta seems more important than instant enlightenment alone, then get serious about Buddhism.

Lama Zopa Rinpoche wrote a book called How To Practice Dharma about the eight worldly dharmas: gain/loss; pleasure/pain; praise/blame; fame/shame.
Lama Zopa Rinpoche wrote:The basic message of Buddhism is renunciation of the thought of the eight worldly dharmas, the mind grasping at the four desirable objects and rejecting the four undesirable objects. The thought of the eight worldly dharmas is a mind solely concerned with the happiness of this life, and any action done with this motivation, even if it is meditating or praying, becomes nonvirtue, the cause of suffering. This is the very first thing we need to understand when we study Dharma, the very first thing we need to wake up to.
...

Not following desire is practicing Dharma; following desire is not practicing Dharma. It is as simple as that. Because the mind is a dependent arising, which means that it exists in dependence upon causes and conditions, our mind can be transformed in any way we choose.
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

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Dan74
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Re: Wiccan arts and the Mahayana

Post by Dan74 » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:17 pm

Further to Jeff's post, there is this great old Chinese story:
"The Eight Winds Cannot Move Me"
Su Dongpo (a famous Buddhist poet) of the Song Dynasty was assigned to an official post at Guazhuo, which was situated at the northern shore of the Yangtze River. Across the river, on its southern shore, was Jinshan (Golden Mountain) Temple where Chan Master Foyin presided. One day, Su Dongpo, feeling quite advanced in his practice, wrote a poem and asked his attendant to send it to Chan Master Foyin for verification. The poem went as following:
"Bowing with my highest respect
To the deva of devas,
Whose fine light illuminates the whole universe,
The eight winds cannot move me,
For I am sitting upright on the golden purple lotus blossom."
("The deva of devas" here figuratively refers to "the Buddha", who is actually not a god, but surpasses all the gods and is "Teacher of men and gods." The "eight winds" are the eight worldly conditions - gain and loss, fame and defame, praise and blame, pleasure and pain. "The golden purple lotus blossom" is a symbol of purity and a "throne" of spiritual attainment.)
After receiving the poem from the attendant and reading it, Chan Master Foyin picked up the brush and wrote down one word as his comment. When the attendant came back with the poem, Su Dongpo, expecting words of praise from the Chan Master, quickly opened it to read the comment. However, on that page, nothing was written except the word "Fart!" ("Pi" in Chinese, which means "utter nonsense") Upon seeing such an insult, Su Dongpo was ablaze with the fire of anger. Immediately, he boarded a boat and crossed the Yangtze River to argue with Chan Master Foyin.
Before the boat even pulled onto the shore, Chan Master Foyin was already standing there waiting for Su Dongpo. Upon seeing Foyin, Su Dongpo said, "Chan Master, we are such intimate Dharma friends! It is fine that you do not compliment my practice or my poem. But how can you insult me like this?"
Innocently, as if nothing had happened, the Chan Master asked, "How have I insulted you?" Without saying another word, Su Dongpo simply showed the word "Fart" to Chan Master Foyin.
Laughing wholeheartedly, the Chan Master said, "Oh! Didn't you say that the eight winds cannot move you? How come you are sent across the river with just a fart?" Hearing what Foyin said, Su Dongpo was extremely embarrassed."

MatthewAngby
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Re: Wiccan arts and the Mahayana

Post by MatthewAngby » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:35 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:55 pm
Carlita wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:48 pm
As for what type of magic, The Buddha does talk about sexual promiscuity and not to take pleasure in watching people die such as in action and horror movies.
They had movies in the Buddha's time?
Omg lol This.
The force is my ally...and a powerful ally it is - Yoda

MatthewAngby
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Re: Wiccan arts and the Mahayana

Post by MatthewAngby » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:42 pm

Jeff H wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:00 pm
Dan74 wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:36 pm
You can just play D&D, imagine yourself an enlightened wizard and go to Alternative Music festivals (they dance naked). Might satisfy most of your wishes better than either Wicca and Vajrayana.

These are all wishes and fantasies that the self produces out of desire and wanting to be more special. Buddhism of all kinds is about letting go of all that stuff.
:good:
It's starting to sound like you're more interested in having an instant path to enlightenment readily available the moment you're done thrill-seeking. You're a kid, so go ahead and be a kid. You will learn many important things that way. When bodhichitta seems more important than instant enlightenment alone, then get serious about Buddhism.

Lama Zopa Rinpoche wrote a book called How To Practice Dharma about the eight worldly dharmas: gain/loss; pleasure/pain; praise/blame; fame/shame.
Lama Zopa Rinpoche wrote:The basic message of Buddhism is renunciation of the thought of the eight worldly dharmas, the mind grasping at the four desirable objects and rejecting the four undesirable objects. The thought of the eight worldly dharmas is a mind solely concerned with the happiness of this life, and any action done with this motivation, even if it is meditating or praying, becomes nonvirtue, the cause of suffering. This is the very first thing we need to understand when we study Dharma, the very first thing we need to wake up to.
...

Not following desire is practicing Dharma; following desire is not practicing Dharma. It is as simple as that. Because the mind is a dependent arising, which means that it exists in dependence upon causes and conditions, our mind can be transformed in any way we choose.
Mm... always had this question. Does this mean if we do dharma pratice just for this life, it’s suffering ? Why? If we pratice dharma for like eg. good health , wealth and fame in future life’s , is it ok - is it lowest form of dharma? Well if pratice dharma for future life’s is ok, I don’t get how pratice dharma for this life becomes nonvirtue. Maybe you want wealth for this life .... and if pratice dharma for future life is ok , then I suppose now I say this , oh in 800 years time when I am reborn on earth as a human again , I want the wealth and fame , therefore I pratice dharma - is that lowest form of dharma? Is that non virtue or virtue?

I do not see why practicing for this life is bad.
The force is my ally...and a powerful ally it is - Yoda

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Carlita
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Re: Wiccan arts and the Mahayana

Post by Carlita » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:43 pm

The Buddha does talk about sexual promiscuity (one of the precepts) as they do in the movies.

Comparison. Wicca didnt exist in The Buddha's day. Id say Tantra and other mystical practices may be considered magic. Who knows. I dont use the term magic. Sounds too scifi fantasy
[The Buddha says to his monks], when he opens his mouth to expound or when he reads the sutra, he should not delight in speaking of the faults of other people or scriptures. He should not display contempt for other teachers of the Law or speak of the good or bad, the strong or weak points of others. -Saddharma Puṇḍarīka Sūtra
:anjali:

climb-up
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Re: Wiccan arts and the Mahayana

Post by climb-up » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:49 pm

From what you're saying you attracted to magic and to the aesthetic of the witch (which shows excellent taste!).

You may know this already but, FWIW, Wicca is not the same as witchcraft.
Witchcraft and "witch" is a surprisingly hard to pin down to a universal definition (really! check out the introduction to Judika Illes "Encyclpedia of Witchcraft") but generally involves magic, nature, spirits and may or may not involve "old gods." (FWIW the "Old Religion," a term appropriated by Wicca, originally referred to Catholicism; a magical practice that was outlawed in many protestant countries, even though many still prayed to the saints in secret).
Witchcraft (in western countries) also allies itself with a certain aesthetic, going back to the Middle Ages and informed by books, movies, TV, et cetera.

Wicca is certainly not a fake religion.
But it is a modern religion that began (and sometimes still maintains) a fake history. It began as Gerald Gardner's personal synthesis and inspiration of the witch aesthetic, Grimoires, his best understanding of history at the time, and possibly some legit folk magic practitioners. Wicca is very varied, but has a specific focus on The God and The Goddess, and balance between the two.
Ronald Hutton's book "Triumph of the moon" was the book that pretty conclusively destroyed the mythological superhero origin-story of Wicca. It is worth a read, but also good to point out that most religions have historically false origin stories, that may or may not be mythologically true.

You can be a witch without being a Wiccan, and you can even kind of be a Wiccan without being a witch (although, less likely). So, if you choose to get into one or the other, make sure its the one you want.

Many witches incorporate Buddhist meditations and understandings into their practice. Doreen Valiente (big name in Wicca and in 'traditional Witchcraft') quoted Vajranatha's book on the similarities between Vajrayana and Wicca (apparently this book used to be in print, it supposed to be printed again this year) in her book "Witchcraft for tomorrow."
That being said, I don't know how many actually consider themselves to be dharma practitioners.
My guess would be, not too many. Wicca is its own religion.

climb-up
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Re: Wiccan arts and the Mahayana

Post by climb-up » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:59 pm

MatthewAngby wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:42 pm

Mm... always had this question. Does this mean if we do dharma pratice just for this life, it’s suffering ? Why? If we pratice dharma for like eg. good health , wealth and fame in future life’s , is it ok - is it lowest form of dharma? Well if pratice dharma for future life’s is ok, I don’t get how pratice dharma for this life becomes nonvirtue. Maybe you want wealth for this life .... and if pratice dharma for future life is ok , then I suppose now I say this , oh in 800 years time when I am reborn on earth as a human again , I want the wealth and fame , therefore I pratice dharma - is that lowest form of dharma? Is that non virtue or virtue?

I do not see why practicing for this life is bad.
Are asking about specific practices, related to the dharma, that grant worldly goals?
Or are you asking if you can practice dharma itself just for worldly goals?
The former is okay, the latter is not good.

The point of dharma is awakening and ending suffering, and of Mahayana specifically is the Bodhisattva path of helping others.
There is nothing wrong with having some worldly pleasures; and if you don't have a job, for example, or are sick, then fixing those worldly problems might let you keep practicing dharma.
Many prayers are for both relative and ultimate happiness. Nothing wrong with that.

But if you get too distracted by worldly goals, or if they become your main focus, thats the danger. All the wealth and fame of the world is impermanent, and you'll only be able to enjoy it for a little while before you die and have to leave it anyways, ...at which point all you have is your karma.

krodha
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Re: Wiccan arts and the Mahayana

Post by krodha » Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:16 pm

MatthewAngby wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:05 am
krodha wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:45 am
MatthewAngby wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:03 am
Main reason why I love Wiccan arts is because of their dancing naked in the moonlight and because they are so dark and look so scary ( which I love ).
Vajrayāna ganacakras used to feature such activities as well.
Do they still do?
Perhaps somewhere in the world.

Jeff H
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Re: Wiccan arts and the Mahayana

Post by Jeff H » Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:29 pm

climb-up wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:59 pm
MatthewAngby wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:42 pm

Mm... always had this question. Does this mean if we do dharma pratice just for this life, it’s suffering ? Why? If we pratice dharma for like eg. good health , wealth and fame in future life’s , is it ok - is it lowest form of dharma? Well if pratice dharma for future life’s is ok, I don’t get how pratice dharma for this life becomes nonvirtue. Maybe you want wealth for this life .... and if pratice dharma for future life is ok , then I suppose now I say this , oh in 800 years time when I am reborn on earth as a human again , I want the wealth and fame , therefore I pratice dharma - is that lowest form of dharma? Is that non virtue or virtue?

I do not see why practicing for this life is bad.
Are asking about specific practices, related to the dharma, that grant worldly goals?
Or are you asking if you can practice dharma itself just for worldly goals?
The former is okay, the latter is not good.

The point of dharma is awakening and ending suffering, and of Mahayana specifically is the Bodhisattva path of helping others.
There is nothing wrong with having some worldly pleasures; and if you don't have a job, for example, or are sick, then fixing those worldly problems might let you keep practicing dharma.
Many prayers are for both relative and ultimate happiness. Nothing wrong with that.

But if you get too distracted by worldly goals, or if they become your main focus, thats the danger. All the wealth and fame of the world is impermanent, and you'll only be able to enjoy it for a little while before you die and have to leave it anyways, ...at which point all you have is your karma.
Very well put. IMO.
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

climb-up
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Re: Wiccan arts and the Mahayana

Post by climb-up » Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:42 pm

Image

Image

Image
(there's gonna be a sequel)

Image
(Classic, but OMG the remake was so bad!)

and...
A fearsome dakini, granting wishes to some and eating others!?
Image

And always remember how to put your kit on:

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Mantrik
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Re: Wiccan arts and the Mahayana

Post by Mantrik » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:22 pm

Got it. Best compromise:

http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

climb-up
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Re: Wiccan arts and the Mahayana

Post by climb-up » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:42 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:22 pm
Got it. Best compromise:

:heart:

MatthewAngby
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Re: Wiccan arts and the Mahayana

Post by MatthewAngby » Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:08 am

climb-up wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:59 pm
MatthewAngby wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:42 pm

Mm... always had this question. Does this mean if we do dharma pratice just for this life, it’s suffering ? Why? If we pratice dharma for like eg. good health , wealth and fame in future life’s , is it ok - is it lowest form of dharma? Well if pratice dharma for future life’s is ok, I don’t get how pratice dharma for this life becomes nonvirtue. Maybe you want wealth for this life .... and if pratice dharma for future life is ok , then I suppose now I say this , oh in 800 years time when I am reborn on earth as a human again , I want the wealth and fame , therefore I pratice dharma - is that lowest form of dharma? Is that non virtue or virtue?

I do not see why practicing for this life is bad.
Are asking about specific practices, related to the dharma, that grant worldly goals?
Or are you asking if you can practice dharma itself just for worldly goals?
The former is okay, the latter is not good.

The point of dharma is awakening and ending suffering, and of Mahayana specifically is the Bodhisattva path of helping others.
There is nothing wrong with having some worldly pleasures; and if you don't have a job, for example, or are sick, then fixing those worldly problems might let you keep practicing dharma.
Many prayers are for both relative and ultimate happiness. Nothing wrong with that.

But if you get too distracted by worldly goals, or if they become your main focus, thats the danger. All the wealth and fame of the world is impermanent, and you'll only be able to enjoy it for a little while before you die and have to leave it anyways, ...at which point all you have is your karma.
Thank you, now I understand.
The force is my ally...and a powerful ally it is - Yoda

MatthewAngby
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Re: Wiccan arts and the Mahayana

Post by MatthewAngby » Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:09 am

climb-up wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:49 pm
From what you're saying you attracted to magic and to the aesthetic of the witch (which shows excellent taste!).

You may know this already but, FWIW, Wicca is not the same as witchcraft.
Witchcraft and "witch" is a surprisingly hard to pin down to a universal definition (really! check out the introduction to Judika Illes "Encyclpedia of Witchcraft") but generally involves magic, nature, spirits and may or may not involve "old gods." (FWIW the "Old Religion," a term appropriated by Wicca, originally referred to Catholicism; a magical practice that was outlawed in many protestant countries, even though many still prayed to the saints in secret).
Witchcraft (in western countries) also allies itself with a certain aesthetic, going back to the Middle Ages and informed by books, movies, TV, et cetera.

Wicca is certainly not a fake religion.
But it is a modern religion that began (and sometimes still maintains) a fake history. It began as Gerald Gardner's personal synthesis and inspiration of the witch aesthetic, Grimoires, his best understanding of history at the time, and possibly some legit folk magic practitioners. Wicca is very varied, but has a specific focus on The God and The Goddess, and balance between the two.
Ronald Hutton's book "Triumph of the moon" was the book that pretty conclusively destroyed the mythological superhero origin-story of Wicca. It is worth a read, but also good to point out that most religions have historically false origin stories, that may or may not be mythologically true.

You can be a witch without being a Wiccan, and you can even kind of be a Wiccan without being a witch (although, less likely). So, if you choose to get into one or the other, make sure its the one you want.

Many witches incorporate Buddhist meditations and understandings into their practice. Doreen Valiente (big name in Wicca and in 'traditional Witchcraft') quoted Vajranatha's book on the similarities between Vajrayana and Wicca (apparently this book used to be in print, it supposed to be printed again this year) in her book "Witchcraft for tomorrow."
That being said, I don't know how many actually consider themselves to be dharma practitioners.
My guess would be, not too many. Wicca is its own religion.
Mm I see. I just thought it would be like fun to join the Wiccas as a hobby of mine - much like the witches academy. I watch too much tv.
The force is my ally...and a powerful ally it is - Yoda

climb-up
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Re: Wiccan arts and the Mahayana

Post by climb-up » Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:22 am

MatthewAngby wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:09 am

Mm I see. I just thought it would be like fun to join the Wiccas as a hobby of mine - much like the witches academy. I watch too much tv.
Well, wicca is it's own religion, so joining in that sense is probably not a good idea if you're looking for a hobby, BUT...
...there's nothing undharmic (necessarily) about dancing naked with witches.
Also, there is ABSOLUTELY nothing unwitchy about developing an interest based on fiction. The vast majority of witches developed their interest through either TV shows, movies or books.

Depending on you location there may be some "Pagan Pride" events, or similar, that are places for "alts" to get together. They are often clothing optional, there is often non-denominational public ceremonies and dancing, music, crafts and interesting conversation.
Paganism is kind of 'fringe' (less and less so nowadays though), so you'll definitely meet interesting people; ...sometimes that's good and sometimes not.
If you have any local occult shops in your area they'll probably know about them.

There is also a movement of younger folks accepting the imagery of witches for political reasons; e.g. dressing up in 'traditional' witch garb and cursing Trump (for some this is performance art, for some its serious, for some its both). Could be an interesting in.

MatthewAngby
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Officially being a Wiccan and pure lander

Post by MatthewAngby » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:54 am

Well as the tile goes . I found a coven in my land Singapore ( a witches coven) not sure if they allow me. Anyways I also became a pure lander, it’s easier that way.

Yesterday , some of y’all asked me to be honest with myself , what do I really want ? Learning that all forms of Buddhism don’t have magic as the core ( as far as I know ), I started inclining to the pure land tradition. In that way, I Guess I can become a warlock ( white ) and be a pure lander too. In that way , it’s a win-win situation for me.

Does any of you here think it’s a good idea? Any Buddhist or wicca might wanna tell me something ?
The force is my ally...and a powerful ally it is - Yoda

amanitamusc
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Re: Officially being a Wiccan and pure lander

Post by amanitamusc » Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:15 am

No. :zzz:Don't mind me i'm just jaded.

Ricky
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Re: Officially being a Wiccan and pure lander

Post by Ricky » Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:23 am

Wicca is a worldly samsaric path. It would be best to abandon it focus solely on pure land buddhism.

MatthewAngby
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Re: Officially being a Wiccan and pure lander

Post by MatthewAngby » Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:25 am

Ricky wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:23 am
Wicca is a worldly samsaric path. It would be best to abandon it focus solely on pure land buddhism.

But I just wanna be reborn in pure land after death. I assume I could still pursue it? I mean because like we also focus on family which is samsaric
The force is my ally...and a powerful ally it is - Yoda

Ricky
Posts: 253
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Re: Officially being a Wiccan and pure lander

Post by Ricky » Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:32 am

If you run after two hares you will catch neither.

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