Can other religions/philosophies/practises complement Buddhadharma?

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Malcolm
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Re: Can other religions/philosophies/practises complement Buddhadharma?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:35 pm

fuki wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:10 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:00 pm
So in your view are Nisargadatta Maharaj's teachings the same as Buddhadharma?
No not the same.
Do they include Dependant Origination for example?
Yes, non-duality and the void of own-being of that which arise, is at the heart of his teachings.
This is the heart of your error, and it is at the heart of many who subscribe to nondualism, as if there were some nondual reality. There is not. I see this happen over and over again.

Dependent origination is rejected by all Advaitans because the logic of dependent origination does not permit one to advance an ontologically meaningful nondualism.

"Nondual" in Mahāyāna means either the absence of outer objects or it means the absence of the basic pair of existence and nonexistence.

M
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Can other religions/philosophies/practises complement Buddhadharma?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:36 pm

Soma999 wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:31 pm

Everyone is right from his own point of view.
This does not mean everyone is "right."
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Simon E.
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Re: Can other religions/philosophies/practises complement Buddhadharma?

Post by Simon E. » Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:39 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:35 pm
fuki wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:10 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:00 pm
So in your view are Nisargadatta Maharaj's teachings the same as Buddhadharma?
No not the same.
Do they include Dependant Origination for example?
Yes, non-duality and the void of own-being of that which arise, is at the heart of his teachings.
This is the heart of your error, and it is at the heart of many who subscribe to nondualism, as if there were some nondual reality. There is not. I see this happen over and over again.

Dependent origination is rejected by all Advaitans because the logic of dependent origination does not permit one to advance an ontologically meaningful nondualism.

"Nondual" in Mahāyāna means either the absence of outer objects or it means the absence of the basic pair of existence and nonexistence.

M
Precisely so.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Malcolm
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Re: Can other religions/philosophies/practises complement Buddhadharma?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:00 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:39 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:35 pm
fuki wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:10 pm

No not the same.


Yes, non-duality and the void of own-being of that which arise, is at the heart of his teachings.
This is the heart of your error, and it is at the heart of many who subscribe to nondualism, as if there were some nondual reality. There is not. I see this happen over and over again.

Dependent origination is rejected by all Advaitans because the logic of dependent origination does not permit one to advance an ontologically meaningful nondualism.

"Nondual" in Mahāyāna means either the absence of outer objects or it means the absence of the basic pair of existence and nonexistence.

M
Precisely so.
Time for people to read the Heart Sūtra again, or even better, the Sañcayagāthas. I just wish there were a better translation than this.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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fuki
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Re: Can other religions/philosophies/practises complement Buddhadharma?

Post by fuki » Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:16 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:35 pm
This is the heart of your error, and it is at the heart of many who subscribe to nondualism, as if there were some nondual reality. There is not. I see this happen over and over again.

Dependent origination is rejected by all Advaitans because the logic of dependent origination does not permit one to advance an ontologically meaningful nondualism.

"Nondual" in Mahāyāna means either the absence of outer objects or it means the absence of the basic pair of existence and nonexistence.

M
Mu
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Malcolm
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Re: Can other religions/philosophies/practises complement Buddhadharma?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:29 pm

fuki wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:16 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:35 pm
This is the heart of your error, and it is at the heart of many who subscribe to nondualism, as if there were some nondual reality. There is not. I see this happen over and over again.

Dependent origination is rejected by all Advaitans because the logic of dependent origination does not permit one to advance an ontologically meaningful nondualism.

"Nondual" in Mahāyāna means either the absence of outer objects or it means the absence of the basic pair of existence and nonexistence.

M
Mu

You should really take the time to discover why Shantaraksita rejected Shankaracharya's embrace of nonarising. It was not because of sectarianism, it is was because Advaitans propose, including Nisgardatta, that reality is a all pervasive nondual consciousness. Nisgardatta's point of view is not compatible with dependent origination:
To identify oneself with the particular is all the sin there is. The impersonal is real, the personal appears and disappears. "I am" is the impersonal Being. "I am this" is the person. The person is relative, and the pure Being fundamental.
This is completely incompatible with dependent origination. I am surprised you do not understand this.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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fuki
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Re: Can other religions/philosophies/practises complement Buddhadharma?

Post by fuki » Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:41 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:29 pm

You should really take the time to discover why Shantaraksita rejected Shankaracharya's embrace of nonarising. It was not because of sectarianism, it is was because Advaitans propose, including Nisgardatta, that reality is a all pervasive nondual consciousness. Nisgardatta's point of view is not compatible with dependent origination:
To identify oneself with the particular is all the sin there is. The impersonal is real, the personal appears and disappears. "I am" is the impersonal Being. "I am this" is the person. The person is relative, and the pure Being fundamental.
This is completely incompatible with dependent origination. I am surprised you do not understand this.
I never said there was a non-duality, like in my previous post which you didn't quote.
since you cannot describe the real in itself there is no real in it self.
If you would have read carefully your previous post would have never arises, nonduel reality is nothing but a concept.

Taking a single quote from sri niz and telling me its not compatible with DO, that is taking a quote out of context, and again it's a Q-A book dependend on the questionar it is not a philosophy or "his view". I'm not going to assert or negate whether his teachings are compatible with buddhadharma, all I said is that in my personal practise I found (certain aspects) of the practise of vendata compatible with buddhadharma, you guys keep bring up the difference in philosophy or view from an intellectual standpoint, how I read his expedient teachings may be other as to someone else.
I'm not gonna engage the advaita-buddhadharma differences.
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Malcolm
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Re: Can other religions/philosophies/practises complement Buddhadharma?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:54 pm

fuki wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:41 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:29 pm


I never said there was a non-duality, like in my previous post which you didn't quote.
You brought up Nisgardatta as someone who both advocated dependent origination and nonduality. I pointed out this was impossible.

I'm not gonna engage the advaita-buddhadharma differences.
Yes, because every time you do, Advaita will be found to be eternalist, advocating ultimate being, and therefore incompatible with the practice of Buddhadharma. There is nothing useful in Advaita for those who practice Buddhadharma, other than to be examined and shown to be a source of faulty views and a deviation. We don't even need to discuss Yoga, Samkhya, etc., since these darshanas have been well refuted. I've studied these things with Hindu masters of them, they have no problem with the incompatibility of Buddhadharma with Samkhya and Advaita, or the incompatibility of Advaita witn Samkhya and Buddhadharma and so on. They cheerfully acknowledge that there are clear differences and that they need to respected.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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fuki
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Re: Can other religions/philosophies/practises complement Buddhadharma?

Post by fuki » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:02 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:54 pm
You brought up Nisgardatta as someone who both advocated dependent origination and nonduality. I pointed out this was impossible.
I did not, I was asked if I found it in his teachings, the answer was yes due to practise, ofcourse I see the impossibility you demonstrate however theorized, framed with a particular agenda, I'm not an idiot (well not in that way)
Yes, because every time you do, Advaita will be found to be eternalist, advocating ultimate being, and therefore incompatible with the practice of Buddhadharma. There is nothing useful in Advaita for those who practice Buddhadharma, other than to be examined and shown to be a source of faulty views and a deviation. We don't even need to discuss Yoga, Samkhya, etc., since these darshanas have been well refuted. I've studied these things with Hindu masters of them, they have no problem with the incompatibility of Buddhadharma with Samkhya and Advaita, or the incompatibility of Advaita witn Samkhya and Buddhadharma and so on. They cheerfully acknowledge that there are clear differences and that they need to respected.
I already said they were different.
You didn't get the "Mu" reference, well not its function.
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Re: Can other religions/philosophies/practises complement Buddhadharma?

Post by Dan74 » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:19 pm

Malcolm wrote:
To identify oneself with the particular is all the sin there is. The impersonal is real, the personal appears and disappears. "I am" is the impersonal Being. "I am this" is the person. The person is relative, and the pure Being fundamental.
This is completely incompatible with dependent origination. I am surprised you do not understand this.
Sounds like the host-and-guest teaching from Zen:

http://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachings/ ... tivity.htm

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fuki
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Re: Can other religions/philosophies/practises complement Buddhadharma?

Post by fuki » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:26 pm

http://www.nonduality.com/asmi2.htm

Sorry only just clicked on the link. if you look at the "I am" quotes at the end discussing like this is again out of context, you will need to read all his books to get a complete picture. What is quoted on this page are expedient talks depending on the "level" of the visitor. Everything you think is asserted here as in "I am" and reality, ultimate, being, etcetera are negated at another time (there's a mu again) ofcourse everything he says is false, it are expedient means like using a thorn to remove a thorn he here uses words according to the needs of the visitor. All expedients are illusions, medicine. It's about the function not the words, the perks of the internet I guess. Read all his books and you'll see it's just medicine, not philosophy.

I hold no eternalist view, if you say he does that's all good, again I'm not here to defend advaita.
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fuki
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Re: Can other religions/philosophies/practises complement Buddhadharma?

Post by fuki » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:30 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:19 pm
Malcolm wrote:
To identify oneself with the particular is all the sin there is. The impersonal is real, the personal appears and disappears. "I am" is the impersonal Being. "I am this" is the person. The person is relative, and the pure Being fundamental.
This is completely incompatible with dependent origination. I am surprised you do not understand this.
Sounds like the host-and-guest teaching from Zen:

http://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachings/ ... tivity.htm
Problem is there's an agenda here, which is fine whether "correct philosophical dharma" or not, the quotes are distorted by personal interpretation to fit a preconceived notion, again fine and not unusual on a Buddhist forum. But the discussion itself about the differences and whether there's liberation outside of buddhadharma is usuless. I'm not interested in the whole asserting and negating business.
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Simon E.
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Re: Can other religions/philosophies/practises complement Buddhadharma?

Post by Simon E. » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:00 pm

An agenda there certainly is. And there are those who might suggest that posting repeatedly to a Mahayana/Vajrayana forum to assert the equivalence of Vedanta and Buddhadharma is pretty trollish.
:lol:
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Re: Can other religions/philosophies/practises complement Buddhadharma?

Post by fuki » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:17 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:00 pm
An agenda there certainly is. And there are those who might suggest that posting repeatedly to a Mahayana/Vajrayana forum to assert the equivalence of Vedanta and Buddhadharma is pretty trollish.
:lol:
Wow you are an expert in locking the world up in a mental picture! (I say this in good spirit)
I only mentioned advaita/sri niz as a welcoming to No Mind and motivate his practise and interest in Buddhism on this forum and beyond.
Don't you see how you constantly ironically use my words selectively for a framework for your own preconceived notions?
Which ironically shows a poor every day daily (offline) life understanding of dependent arising/emptiness and your self-grasping.

I'm going to respectfully bow out of this thread for now if you'll excuse me, I enjoyed engaging with everyone and mean no disrespect to anyone, this forum, nor Buddhadharma (hail!) Any caused division, grasping or arising vexation in members reading this is my responsibility.

For what it is worth she out of all options picked the Buddhadharma book over advaita stuff and a hockey book (go red wings)

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Malcolm
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Re: Can other religions/philosophies/practises complement Buddhadharma?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:25 pm

fuki wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:02 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:54 pm
You brought up Nisgardatta as someone who both advocated dependent origination and nonduality. I pointed out this was impossible.
I did not, I was asked if I found it in his teachings, the answer was yes due to practise, ofcourse I see the impossibility you demonstrate however theorized, framed with a particular agenda, I'm not an idiot (well not in that way)
Yes, because every time you do, Advaita will be found to be eternalist, advocating ultimate being, and therefore incompatible with the practice of Buddhadharma. There is nothing useful in Advaita for those who practice Buddhadharma, other than to be examined and shown to be a source of faulty views and a deviation. We don't even need to discuss Yoga, Samkhya, etc., since these darshanas have been well refuted. I've studied these things with Hindu masters of them, they have no problem with the incompatibility of Buddhadharma with Samkhya and Advaita, or the incompatibility of Advaita witn Samkhya and Buddhadharma and so on. They cheerfully acknowledge that there are clear differences and that they need to respected.
I already said they were different.
You didn't get the "Mu" reference, well not its function.
I understand what the Japanese equivalent to A is.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Can other religions/philosophies/practises complement Buddhadharma?

Post by Pero » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:34 pm

fuki wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:17 pm
For what it is worth she out of all options picked the Buddhadharma book over advaita stuff and a hockey book (go red wings)

Image
Great pic! :D
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

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Re: Can other religions/philosophies/practises complement Buddhadharma?

Post by anjali » Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:18 pm

Seems like a good time to lock the thread. If someone has something substantial to say that moves the discussion forward, let me, or another moderator know, and we will consider reopening the thread.
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