Can other religions/philosophies/practises complement Buddhadharma?

Casual conversation between friends. Anything goes (almost).
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Malcolm
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Re: Can other religions/philosophies/practises complement Buddhadharma?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:09 pm

No_Mind wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:46 pm


Probably because I am a relative newcomer to Buddhism (I became a Theravadan Buddhist in mid-2013 and I am an entirely self taught Buddhist) I do not yet subscribe to such a rigid view. Perhaps in time I will.
You need a teacher.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

marting
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Re: Can other religions/philosophies/practises complement Buddhadharma?

Post by marting » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:13 pm

No_Mind wrote:I do not yet subscribe to such a rigid view.
Hey No_Mind, just wanting some clarity: are you defining "rigid view" as what you don't like to hear?

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fuki
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Re: Hello All

Post by fuki » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:32 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:58 pm
fuki wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:45 pm
I fear anything I will say will cause more division in the minds of ppl leading to more grasping, hence dukkha.
The aim of precision about this point is to eliminate the concepts that lead to grasping and clinging.

One does not eliminate views by proffering more views.

Dependent origination itself is the elimination of views. No Mind should understand this point a little better than he does at present.

And just to be clear, Nāgārjuna states:

Whatever is the nature of the Tathāgata, that is the nature of the world.
Since the Tathāgata has no nature, the world too has no nature.
Malcolm, I've been a practisioner of buddhadharma for 20 years and you cannot force a flower to bloom, as you know it depends on causes and conditions. It isn't my flavour to speak in a manner like you do, as in "he should understand this point" I'm not sure if that would motivate him to deepen his practise and understanding, but again I cannot predict if it will or will not since that depends on a myriad of conditions. Perhaps you are of service to motivate him but putting in "shoulds" usually don't. It's no critique to you I value your assistence in the dharma but it's not my style of speech so I won't discuss that point. If you would adress my understanding of the dharma I would engage but I never talk about the understanding or non-understanding of others.
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Malcolm
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Re: Hello All

Post by Malcolm » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:45 pm

fuki wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:32 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:58 pm
fuki wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:45 pm
I fear anything I will say will cause more division in the minds of ppl leading to more grasping, hence dukkha.
The aim of precision about this point is to eliminate the concepts that lead to grasping and clinging.

One does not eliminate views by proffering more views.

Dependent origination itself is the elimination of views. No Mind should understand this point a little better than he does at present.

And just to be clear, Nāgārjuna states:

Whatever is the nature of the Tathāgata, that is the nature of the world.
Since the Tathāgata has no nature, the world too has no nature.
Malcolm, I've been a practisioner of buddhadharma for 20 years and you cannot force a flower to bloom, as you know it depends on causes and conditions. It isn't my flavour to speak in a manner like you do, as in "he should understand this point" I'm not sure if that would motivate him to deepen his practise and understanding, but again I cannot predict if it will or will not since that depends on a myriad of conditions. Perhaps you are of service to motivate him but putting in "shoulds" usually don't. It's no critique to you I value your assistence in the dharma but it's not my style of speech so I won't discuss that point. If you would adress my understanding of the dharma I would engage but I never talk about the understanding or non-understanding of others.
No Mind explained his perspective right at the outset. It is mistaken. If no one sets him straight, he will continue in that misconception.

It is no more kind to allow someone to continue in a misconception than it is to allow a lost traveller to continue on their way without pointing out the correct path to their destination.

Time is passing and we are living in time.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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fuki
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Re: Hello All

Post by fuki » Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:11 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:45 pm

No Mind explained his perspective right at the outset. It is mistaken. If no one sets him straight, he will continue in that misconception.

It is no more kind to allow someone to continue in a misconception than it is to allow a lost traveller to continue on their way without pointing out the correct path to their destination.

Time is passing and we are living in time.
I understand your angle of vision, yet I'm more cautious with people I do not have established a deeper connection with yet (or are not aware of yet).
Besides I'm a member of zen forums where actual qualified teachers, which I am not, can adress misconceptions better then I. Even if I would say things correctly according to the dharma it does not mean it would function correctly it might have an undesirable effect. So my speech differs when I know someone better and have established a deeper connection. Blindly expounding the dharma to anyone who appears can also be a disservice to the dharma. We all differ in our approach, when a practisioner has seen through the cause and can drop self-grasping the gateway into Ch'an will naturally open. Again I am not a teacher and ofcourse right understanding is vital it is not always the time and place for me to adress it, it might be different for you. No opposition there, what is kind or not kind cannot be predicted, it is wisdom which gives compassion its direction, for me always adressing everyone's misconception can be like releasing a bird with one broken wing, which is then also my resposibility if it plummets to the ground. So when it doesn't come naturally I maintain silence. But again I wish your guidance and practise or anyone's will be of service to all sentient beings.
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen nederland.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

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Malcolm
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Re: Hello All

Post by Malcolm » Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:22 pm

fuki wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:11 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:45 pm

No Mind explained his perspective right at the outset. It is mistaken. If no one sets him straight, he will continue in that misconception.

It is no more kind to allow someone to continue in a misconception than it is to allow a lost traveller to continue on their way without pointing out the correct path to their destination.

Time is passing and we are living in time.
I understand your angle of vision, yet I'm more cautious with people I do not have established a deeper connection with yet (or are not aware of yet).
Besides I'm a member of zen forums where actual qualified teachers, which I am not, can adress misconceptions better then I. Even if I would say things correctly according to the dharma it does not mean it would function correctly it might have an undesirable effect. So my speech differs when I know someone better and have established a deeper connection. Blindly expounding the dharma to anyone who appears can also be a disservice to the dharma. We all differ in our approach, when a practisioner has seen through the cause and can drop self-grasping the gateway into Ch'an will naturally open. Again I am not a teacher and ofcourse right understanding is vital it is not always the time and place for me to adress it, it might be different for you. No opposition there, what is kind or not kind cannot be predicted, it is wisdom which gives compassion its direction, for me always adressing everyone's misconception can be like releasing a bird with one broken wing, which is then also my resposibility if it plummets to the ground. So when it doesn't come naturally I maintain silence. But again I wish your guidance and practise or anyone's will be of service to all sentient beings.
My attitude is that Buddhadharma is very precise. It is easy to measure what is in accordance with Buddhadharma and what is not. This is a forum for discussing that. Therefore, if someone offers a view that absolutely contradicts Buddhadharma, it is quite permissible, and even desirable, for that contradiction to be pointed out. I generally find that in the end people appreciate being corrected, even if in the beginning they are a little offended.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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fuki
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Re: Hello All

Post by fuki » Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:34 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:22 pm
I generally find that in the end people appreciate being corrected, even if in the beginning they are a little offended.
Yes but you're more skilled to correct people, so my caution says something about me ofcourse.
We all have different approaches, it depends as always, there's no fixed right or wrong approach to me, it funtions spontaneously and responds according to conditions, but again I need to be a bit more "close" to people, I don't mean that in an emotional way though to be clear.

thanks for the talk again, I feel us getting "closer" ;)
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Re: Can other religions/philosophies/practises complement Buddhadharma?

Post by Kunga Lhadzom » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:11 pm

I just want to say....i agree Buddhadharma is the Way....it's the only thing I have stuck with...and it's because I can't think of a better or more logical explanation than Dependant Origination as to how the Universe works....but who am I to really KNOW anything...and how would I even think or trust that Buddhadharma IS the most logical or accurate truth ? It just makes perfect sense to me.....but i am not a genius....or a being...millions of years more evolved than humans.......would a being that was millions of years more evolved also agree with Buddhadharma?

I actually think Buddhadharma in itself is zillions of years ahead of human evolution. ..
And that is why we are,so slow in comprehending all it entails......and why it is so difficult to figure out....even though it has been simplified and explained in many ways because of the diversity in types of humans and capacities of comprehension. .....i get exasperated myself ......
The Universe flowing through my veins...stars falling from my eyes......rocks rolling in my head...lemon juice dripping down my chin....

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Re: Can other religions/philosophies/practises complement Buddhadharma?

Post by Wayfarer » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:08 pm

I don't agree with any form of 'religious triumphalism' - this way is the only way. We live in a pluralistic society which can accommodate many ways. And besides:
I have taught the Dharma compared to a raft, for the purpose of crossing over, not for the purpose of holding onto. Understanding the Dharma as taught compared to a raft, you should let go even of Dharmas, to say nothing of Adharmas.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki-roshi

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Malcolm
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Re: Can other religions/philosophies/practises complement Buddhadharma?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:12 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:08 pm
I don't agree with any form of 'religious triumphalism' - this way is the only way. We live in a pluralistic society which can accommodate many ways.
Of course, many sentient beings have different karma, and thus follow many paths, but without right view, liberation just is not possible. That right view exists only in Buddhadharma.

If liberation does not come from right view, than liberation has no cause and can arise at any time in anyone, whether they realized emptiness or not.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Wayfarer
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Re: Can other religions/philosophies/practises complement Buddhadharma?

Post by Wayfarer » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:29 pm

And exactly the same thing is being said of Christianity on Christian forums, and I don't accept that, either. I think liberation is ultimately beyond religions altogether - it is what they are pointing out, or pointing to, but as the parable says, they are 'fingers pointing at the moon'. The ultimate goal is not Buddhist or Hindu or Christian, those distinctions only exist in the domain of phenomena. But I'm not going to get into a long polemical debate about it.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki-roshi

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Re: Can other religions/philosophies/practises complement Buddhadharma?

Post by Kunga Lhadzom » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:33 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:12 pm
If liberation does not come from right view, than liberation has no cause and can arise at any time in anyone, whether they realized emptiness or not.
But it would arise, if the karma for it ripened...maybe they practiced in a past life ?

Also if there is no begining. ...no cause to cause a begining....why couldn't liberation arise spontaneously ?
The Universe flowing through my veins...stars falling from my eyes......rocks rolling in my head...lemon juice dripping down my chin....

https://drunklotus.blog

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Malcolm
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Re: Can other religions/philosophies/practises complement Buddhadharma?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:38 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:29 pm
And exactly the same thing is being said of Christianity on Christian forums, and I don't accept that, either. I think liberation is ultimately beyond religions altogether - it is what they are pointing out, or pointing to, but as the parable says, they are 'fingers pointing at the moon'. The ultimate goal is not Buddhist or Hindu or Christian, those distinctions only exist in the domain of phenomena. But I'm not going to get into a long polemical debate about it.
Right, so for you liberation is not dependent on view, but something other mystical thingymabob that you cannot describe.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Tiago Simões
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Re: Can other religions/philosophies/practises complement Buddhadharma?

Post by Tiago Simões » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:40 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:29 pm
The ultimate goal is not Buddhist or Hindu or Christian, those distinctions only exist in the domain of phenomena. .
And given that we are not Buddhas, the domain of phenomena is all we have to play with.

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Malcolm
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Re: Can other religions/philosophies/practises complement Buddhadharma?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:41 pm

Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:33 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:12 pm
If liberation does not come from right view, than liberation has no cause and can arise at any time in anyone, whether they realized emptiness or not.
But it would arise, if the karma for it ripened...maybe they practiced in a past life ?

Also if there is no begining. ...no cause to cause a begining....why couldn't liberation arise spontaneously ?
Why? It is because of the innate grasping at a nonexistent self which has not been eradicated by the realization of the emptiness of persons and phenomena that liberation cannot arise spontaneously. Since every other religion posits some kind of self as an ultimate reality, liberation is not possible for them.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Can other religions/philosophies/practises complement Buddhadharma?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:42 pm

Tiago Simões wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:40 pm
Wayfarer wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:29 pm
The ultimate goal is not Buddhist or Hindu or Christian, those distinctions only exist in the domain of phenomena. .
And given that we are not Buddhas, the domain of phenomena is all we have to play with.
Moerover, as the Sabba sutta points out, there nothing other than the domain of phenomena, and those are included completely within in the twelve āyatanas.

Another way to put it is that all compounded and uncompounded phenomena are included in one aggregate, one sense base, and one sense element, that is, the material aggregate, the mental sense base, and the dharma sense element. There are no phenomena outside of these three groups.

When we study Dharma in a proper way, we will abandon the notion that there is liberation for those outside of the Dharma. If we do not study Dharma in the proper way, maintaining the delusion that there is liberation for those outside of Buddhadharma is not only mistaken, but it is mistaken compassion.
Last edited by Malcolm on Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Can other religions/philosophies/practises complement Buddhadharma?

Post by Norwegian » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:51 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:08 pm
I don't agree with any form of 'religious triumphalism' - this way is the only way. We live in a pluralistic society which can accommodate many ways. And besides:
I have taught the Dharma compared to a raft, for the purpose of crossing over, not for the purpose of holding onto. Understanding the Dharma as taught compared to a raft, you should let go even of Dharmas, to say nothing of Adharmas.
As someone who goes for refuge to the Buddha, I have accepted the Buddha (indeed any Buddha) as the ultimate authority on Buddhadharma.

The Buddha then stating that outside of his teachings there is no liberation, means it's highly arrogant of me to question that statement (in the sense of implying that the Buddha is mistaken, and yet still after that say that I go for refuge to the Buddha). Or, if not arrogant, then just ignorant (how can I know more about these things than the Buddha himself?). The Buddha is a Buddha. This is supposed to mean something. If the Buddha says something, then I listen to it.

My attitude is that if I don't understand something, then I want to understand why it is so and so, instead of just discarding it. So far this has not disappointed me or let me down.

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Malcolm
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Re: Can other religions/philosophies/practises complement Buddhadharma?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:55 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:51 pm
Wayfarer wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:08 pm
I don't agree with any form of 'religious triumphalism' - this way is the only way. We live in a pluralistic society which can accommodate many ways. And besides:
I have taught the Dharma compared to a raft, for the purpose of crossing over, not for the purpose of holding onto. Understanding the Dharma as taught compared to a raft, you should let go even of Dharmas, to say nothing of Adharmas.
As someone who goes for refuge to the Buddha, I have accepted the Buddha (indeed any Buddha) as the ultimate authority on Buddhadharma.

The Buddha then stating that outside of his teachings there is no liberation, means it's highly arrogant of me to question that statement (in the sense of implying that the Buddha is mistaken, and yet still after that say that I go for refuge to the Buddha). Or, if not arrogant, then just ignorant (how can I know more about these things than the Buddha himself?). The Buddha is a Buddha. This is supposed to mean something. If the Buddha says something, then I listen to it.

My attitude is that if I don't understand something, then I want to understand why it is so and so, instead of just discarding it. So far this has not disappointed me or let me down.

The other reason why Wayfarer is completely mistaken on this point is that he believes there is something ultimate beyond phenomena which must be realized. He thinks the unborn, etc. refers to something real.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Can other religions/philosophies/practises complement Buddhadharma?

Post by Dan74 » Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:00 pm

No Mind,

I find the approach as outlined here quite rigid as well. Life/spiritual practice are organic, not formulaic. Signposts (as in the Dharma) and one-to-one guidance from a teacher who knows your heart are vital, I agree, but any dogmatic approach as to what one needs (without even knowing where one is coming from) is naive at best.

Fora being the way they are, the view you are exposed here is symptomatic of this Forum's culture rather than what you are likely to hear in Vajrayana or Zen centres (in my experience), especially as a newcomer.

_/|\_

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Tiago Simões
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Re: Can other religions/philosophies/practises complement Buddhadharma?

Post by Tiago Simões » Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:04 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:42 pm
Moerover, as the Sabba sutta points out, there nothing other than the domain of phenomena, and those are included completely within in the twelve āyatanas.

Another way to put it is that all compounded and uncompounded phenomena are included in one aggregate, one sense base, and one sense element, that is, the material aggregate, the mental sense base, and the dharma sense element. There are no phenomena outside of these three groups.

When we study Dharma in a proper way, we will abandon the notion that there is liberation for those outside of the Dharma. If we do not study Dharma in the proper way, maintaining the delusion that there is liberation for those outside of Buddhadharma is not only mistaken, but it is mistaken compassion.
:good:

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