Discussion/debate/argument

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Grigoris
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Discussion/debate/argument

Post by Grigoris » Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:35 am

7_arguments.jpg
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"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Mantrik
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Re: Discussion/debate/argument

Post by Mantrik » Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:42 am

Like Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs in some respects.

Some people's needs remain at the base level and they never aspire to satisfying a higher level need, such as discovering more information.

The 'counterargument' and higher responses are sometimes opposed by a cry of 'appeal to authority' when people feel 'trumped' by the other person's sources.
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Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

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Wayfarer
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Re: Discussion/debate/argument

Post by Wayfarer » Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:59 am

That really does rip off Maslow’s triangle so will post it here just to illustrate that:

Image

We can argue about that if you want but just sayin’
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki Roshi

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Mantrik
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Re: Discussion/debate/argument

Post by Mantrik » Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:09 am

Wayfarer wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:59 am
That really does rip off Maslow’s triangle so will post it here just to illustrate that:

Image

We can argue about that if you want but just sayin’
I agreed with you before you even posted it. Does that make me an Empath? lol :)
Last edited by Mantrik on Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Grigoris
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Re: Discussion/debate/argument

Post by Grigoris » Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:13 am

An appeal to authority is okay if the authority is valid.

If one were to be talking about physics and one says: the acclaimed astrophysicist blah-blah says blah.

When it is not a relevant authority, it becomes a problem.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Discussion/debate/argument

Post by Grigoris » Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:22 am

You mean these guys ripped off Maslow?
the-great-pyramid.jpg
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"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Discussion/debate/argument

Post by Grigoris » Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:26 am

Congratulations, you guys just engaged in a illicit minor syllogistic fallacy! :smile:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Discussion/debate/argument

Post by Simon E. » Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:31 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:35 am
7_arguments.jpg

Yes. I won't be doing any of that in any formal or structured sense. I will simply be responding from my own subjectivity and experiential knowledge such as it is.
The only exception is if I see an assertion that differs from that which I have been taught in terms of doctrine.

And if that makes my posts unreadable or invalid to anyone, then that's ok.
Just 'foe' me. I won't mind. :smile:
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

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Re: Discussion/debate/argument

Post by Mantrik » Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:39 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:13 am
An appeal to authority is okay if the authority is valid.

If one were to be talking about physics and one says: the acclaimed astrophysicist blah-blah says blah.

When it is not a relevant authority, it becomes a problem.

What do you think about the Vajrayana situation where it is rarely the 'done thing' to agree that one's Guru is wrong? Someone's counterargument may trump what you Guru has taught and/or the authority quoted may be more relevant and more widely accepted as an authority. It's a fine line between that and 'disparaging'.

We're quite often very polite about it and simply advise someone to go back and clarify things with their Guru, but occasionally it can go straight down to the lower levels of debate as people defend loyalties and Gurus rather than refuting arguments.
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Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
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Re: Discussion/debate/argument

Post by Simon E. » Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:46 am

And defending loyalties and Gurus is often the only choice at certain stages of Guru Yoga.
There are greater and lesser truths. Sometimes it is necessary to sacrifice the lesser provisional truth for the greater truth. Verbalisations are in the end only vehicles for the real communication between student and teacher anyway.
This should be understood purely in terms of Guru Yoga and HYT.
Not in a political or personal sense.
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

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Re: Discussion/debate/argument

Post by Grigoris » Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:59 am

Simon E. wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:31 am
Yes. I won't be doing any of that in any formal or structured sense. I will simply be responding from my own subjectivity and experiential knowledge such as it is.
The only exception is if I see an assertion that differs from that which I have been taught in terms of doctrine.

And if that makes my posts unreadable or invalid to anyone, then that's ok.
Just 'foe' me. I won't mind. :smile:
I can't foe you, I am a moderator! :tongue:

You will excuse me while I engage in just a little meta-discussion to help you understand...

If I was to say:
Hitler was a vegetraian.
Hilter was evil.
Thus all vegetarians are evil.

(I would hope that) you would probably think I am a f*ckin' idiot.

Correct?

And yet your argument in that thread:
HHDL and ChNN are not vegetarians.
HHDL and ChNN are good.
Thus not being vegetarian is fine/good.

Uses the EXACT same flawed logic.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Grigoris
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Re: Discussion/debate/argument

Post by Grigoris » Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:04 am

Simon E. wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:46 am
And defending loyalties and Gurus is often the only choice at certain stages of Guru Yoga.
Really? Do tell... In a seperate thread though, please! :smile:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Simon E.
Posts: 5637
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Discussion/debate/argument

Post by Simon E. » Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:07 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:59 am
Simon E. wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:31 am
Yes. I won't be doing any of that in any formal or structured sense. I will simply be responding from my own subjectivity and experiential knowledge such as it is.
The only exception is if I see an assertion that differs from that which I have been taught in terms of doctrine.

And if that makes my posts unreadable or invalid to anyone, then that's ok.
Just 'foe' me. I won't mind. :smile:
I can't foe you, I am a moderator! :tongue:

You will excuse me while I engage in just a little meta-discussion to help you understand...

If I was to say:
Hitler was a vegetraian.
Hilter was evil.
Thus all vegetarians are evil.

(I would hope that) you would probably think I am a f*ckin' idiot.

Correct?

And yet your argument in that thread:
HHDL and ChNN are not vegetarians.
HHDL and ChNN are good.
Thus not being vegetarian is fine/good.

Uses the EXACT same flawed logic.
I like flawed logic. It has more 'truth.'
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

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Re: Discussion/debate/argument

Post by Mantrik » Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:09 am

Simon E. wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:46 am
And defending loyalties and Gurus is often the only choice at certain stages of Guru Yoga.
There are greater and lesser truths. Sometimes it is necessary to sacrifice the lesser provisional truth for the greater truth. Verbalisations are in the end only vehicles for the real communication between student and teacher anyway.
This should be understood purely in terms of Guru Yoga and HYT.
Not in a political or personal sense.
I assumed that was the case with much of the 'vegetarian' debate, and how it applies to people with samaya.

The flip side is the sexual offences of Gurus where their students have little choice other than to admit that their Guru is wrong. Or as in my case with the nameless cult. That can definitely tip over into disparaging a Guru, something perhaps unavoidable in warning others of the dangers to mind and body.

In debate, quoting one's Guru can kill a conversation, of course. Someone with samaya tends to be hard wired to respect that in others.
Last edited by Mantrik on Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

Simon E.
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Re: Discussion/debate/argument

Post by Simon E. » Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:11 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:04 am
Simon E. wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:46 am
And defending loyalties and Gurus is often the only choice at certain stages of Guru Yoga.
Really? Do tell... In a seperate thread though, please! :smile:
Nah. If its not obvious... leave it. I don't require anyone else to agree.
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

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Re: Discussion/debate/argument

Post by Mantrik » Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:18 am

So, quoting their Guru can be seen by a person as an irrefutable negation of someone else's argument, the highest authority, unassailable. Debate over. Top of the pyramid.

And of someone else responds by criticising the Guru's position as crackers, we're right back down to the ad homs again............or are we, if the argument is impuned rather than the Guru........or is any knock-down of a Guru's words a terrible breach of samaya?
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

Simon E.
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Re: Discussion/debate/argument

Post by Simon E. » Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:27 am

Mantrik wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:18 am
So, quoting their Guru can be seen by a person as an irrefutable negation of someone else's argument, the highest authority, unassailable. Debate over. Top of the pyramid.

And of someone else responds by criticising the Guru's position as crackers, we're right back down to the ad homs again............or are we, if the argument is impuned rather than the Guru........or is any knock-down of a Guru's words a terrible breach of samaya?
Thats not the way I see it.
Quoting the Guru is not a refutation of an argument. I have no interest in refuting arguments.
All verbal formulations are eventually misleading to a greater or lesser extent.
Quoting the Guru is acknowledging and reaffirming my own personal source of authority. Not an attempt to convince anyone else.
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

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Grigoris
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Re: Discussion/debate/argument

Post by Grigoris » Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:32 am

Simon E. wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:07 am
I like flawed logic. It has more 'truth.'
Level 4. Let's see if you can fall any lower...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Grigoris
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Re: Discussion/debate/argument

Post by Grigoris » Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:33 am

Simon E. wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:11 am
Nah. If its not obvious... leave it. I don't require anyone else to agree.
And this is a Level 4 as well.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Grigoris
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Re: Discussion/debate/argument

Post by Grigoris » Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:40 am

Simon E. wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:27 am
Quoting the Guru is acknowledging and reaffirming my own personal source of authority. Not an attempt to convince anyone else.
Not when you do it publicly. Then you expect people to "give a sh*t".

Unless you take part in discussions just to preach, that is. Which is horribly boorish, to say the least.

Once it is public, it is up for debate. If you cannot handle that, then it is better not to go public.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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