Fantasy

Casual conversation between friends. Anything goes (almost).
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Queequeg
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Re: Fantasy

Post by Queequeg » Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:30 pm

Remarkable the antipathy to the suggestion that it's a good thing to care for other beings and do what can be done to alleviate suffering. How awful that the sufferings of others might disturb one's equanimity.

If my impression of Buddhist institutions is wrong, I am glad. And I hope they return to their past ways soon.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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The Cicada
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Re: Fantasy

Post by The Cicada » Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:33 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 8:44 pm
Well, no, they were inspired by a desire to convert heathens. Most so-called Christian charity work arose as a means of conversion, to save benighted savages.
Q-Raj does have a point. Why don't Buddhist charities in the West work more actively and conspicuously so that they can convert and save savage and benighted mind-streams?

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Josef
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Re: Fantasy

Post by Josef » Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:12 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:30 pm

If my impression of Buddhist institutions is wrong, I am glad. And I hope they return to their past ways soon.
Your impression certainly misses the mark for the Buddhist institutions that I am a part of.
Our activities are diverse and practiced in several nations.
Last edited by Josef on Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Josef
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Re: Fantasy

Post by Josef » Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:15 pm

The Cicada wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:33 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 8:44 pm
Well, no, they were inspired by a desire to convert heathens. Most so-called Christian charity work arose as a means of conversion, to save benighted savages.
Q-Raj does have a point. Why don't Buddhist charities in the West work more actively and conspicuously so that they can convert and save savage and benighted mind-streams?
Our job is to alleviate suffering, not inflict it.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

Norwegian
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Re: Fantasy

Post by Norwegian » Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:22 pm

The Cicada wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:33 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 8:44 pm
Well, no, they were inspired by a desire to convert heathens. Most so-called Christian charity work arose as a means of conversion, to save benighted savages.
Q-Raj does have a point. Why don't Buddhist charities in the West work more actively and conspicuously so that they can convert and save savage and benighted mind-streams?
This has nothing to do with Buddhadharma.

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Malcolm
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Re: Fantasy

Post by Malcolm » Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:27 pm

The Cicada wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:33 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 8:44 pm
Well, no, they were inspired by a desire to convert heathens. Most so-called Christian charity work arose as a means of conversion, to save benighted savages.
Q-Raj does have a point. Why don't Buddhist charities in the West work more actively and conspicuously so that they can convert and save savage and benighted mind-streams?
Precious human birth is a function of karma, not conversion.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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The Cicada
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Re: Fantasy

Post by The Cicada » Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:35 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:27 pm
The Cicada wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:33 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 8:44 pm
Well, no, they were inspired by a desire to convert heathens. Most so-called Christian charity work arose as a means of conversion, to save benighted savages.
Q-Raj does have a point. Why don't Buddhist charities in the West work more actively and conspicuously so that they can convert and save savage and benighted mind-streams?
Precious human birth is a function of karma, not conversion.
According to your school, good friend. Nichirenites, and probably Pure Landers as well, aren't likely to agree with you that only certain human births (the "precious" ones) can be positively affected by Buddhist teaching.
Norwegian wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:22 pm
This has nothing to do with Buddhadharma.
Josef wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:15 pm
Our job is to alleviate suffering, not inflict it.
The bodhisattva practice of giving and the spread of Buddhadharma have nothing to do with Buddhist teaching? What about handmade cushions?

Besides I think that organizations in places like Taiwan are already doing this sort of thing.

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Fantasy

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:24 pm

Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:04 pm
beer wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:39 am
I remember being at Swayambhunath on a holy day. Thousands of buddhists were there doing kora. A child was involved in a hit and run. No one ran to its aid. No one called the police or an ambulance. Thousands of so called buddhists and no one did shit. Why?
Maybe Mara was trying to distract them....but due to their experience in deep meditation...they had more resilience to distractions ... :shrug:
most buddhists have only one leg: intention.
the other leg is the right action.

beer
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Re: Fantasy

Post by beer » Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:53 am

tingdzin wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:20 pm
A dog tries to steal my food, he will get kicked ( or have a stick thrown at him). you've obviously never lived long in Asia.
dude, I have spent the last 15 years visiting and living in asia. Two days ago I hit a dog with a stick because he tried to eat my dinner.

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Re: Fantasy

Post by beer » Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:07 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:34 pm
beer wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:08 pm
I could say that some of the responses to my comments are judgemental, that people are using crtical inteligence to decide what is right or wrong etc etc and I would be correct, and ithere is nothing wrong with you all doing that, because it is necessary.
Im glad that Malcolm is eating popcorn
also.
When the child was run over I yelled ou to the crowd to ring an ambulance. Igranbed people and asked if they new the number for an ambulance.. One person new the number butbdidnt call. I should have done more. I didnt run over to the kid. I should have though.

No shit, we have to work kn ourselves. No shit being hyocritical is stupid and shameful. But no one needs a license to think and act critically and if one does it with a good intention then that is great in my book.
If we are trying to get to the truth then we need to do it.
Look, we can be vwise about it and stupid about it.

I dont consider my self a practitioner but I have been involved in Budfhism for nearly twety years. . Im not here to start shit with people. I say what I h ave seen over the years and I do it because Im.concerned and Ive been in the guts of it.

Sorry for the poor spellling etc, no glasses.



You should not concern yourself too much with what others do. Why? There is little one can do.
I disagree. There a great benefits derived from concerning oneself with others.
There is alot one can do.
Sure in relation to others there are limitations and factors beyond our control, however there are alot of things within our control and influence

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Fantasy

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:20 am

beer wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:39 am
Vasana wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:31 am
This is the Kali Yuga after all.

The sense of self-righteousness or moral-outrage we may feel can't last long when we're still subject to the same root afflictions that we admonish others for.

'Pointing out faults to a short-tempered retinue
In these degenerate times, even with the wish to benefit,
Gives rise to negative states of mind.
‘To speak peacefully’ is my heart advice.

Giving advice with a wish to benefit and without self-interest,
Or lovingly pointing out someone’s hidden faults,
We might be honest, but still it creates heartache.
‘To speak pleasantly’ is my heart advice.'

Thirty Pieces of Heart Advice

by Longchen Rabjam (1308—1363)
If we don't identify what is going wrong then we have no chance to change anything.
Critical intelligence is necessary. Judging things is necessary. Observing others actions and deciding what is right or wrong beneficial or non beneficial is necessary etc etc. Simply saying we are in samsara, the Kali Yuga is here, we should not judge others, we should only find fault in ourselves etc etc is no help at all. It is passive and irresponsible. Many people think not judging others or intervening in negative behaviour is acting ethically but it may be that they are just shit scared of confronting someone. The reality is most people are just piss weak and lazy.
I remember being at Swayambhunath on a holy day. Thousands of buddhists were there doing kora. A child was involved in a hit and run. No one ran to its aid. No one called the police or an ambulance. Thousands of so called buddhists and no one did shit. Why? People were to shit scared to get involved or they just didn't care. The child was beggar. his mother eventually came running from up the street and picked up his limp body and ran screaming. Sorry, we have to judge and act.
You obviously cared, did you do something? That question matters more than these other ones.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

beer
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Re: Fantasy

Post by beer » Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:44 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:20 am
beer wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:39 am
Vasana wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:31 am
This is the Kali Yuga after all.

The sense of self-righteousness or moral-outrage we may feel can't last long when we're still subject to the same root afflictions that we admonish others for.

'Pointing out faults to a short-tempered retinue
In these degenerate times, even with the wish to benefit,
Gives rise to negative states of mind.
‘To speak peacefully’ is my heart advice.

Giving advice with a wish to benefit and without self-interest,
Or lovingly pointing out someone’s hidden faults,
We might be honest, but still it creates heartache.
‘To speak pleasantly’ is my heart advice.'

Thirty Pieces of Heart Advice

by Longchen Rabjam (1308—1363)
If we don't identify what is going wrong then we have no chance to change anything.
Critical intelligence is necessary. Judging things is necessary. Observing others actions and deciding what is right or wrong beneficial or non beneficial is necessary etc etc. Simply saying we are in samsara, the Kali Yuga is here, we should not judge others, we should only find fault in ourselves etc etc is no help at all. It is passive and irresponsible. Many people think not judging others or intervening in negative behaviour is acting ethically but it may be that they are just shit scared of confronting someone. The reality is most people are just piss weak and lazy.
I remember being at Swayambhunath on a holy day. Thousands of buddhists were there doing kora. A child was involved in a hit and run. No one ran to its aid. No one called the police or an ambulance. Thousands of so called buddhists and no one did shit. Why? People were to shit scared to get involved or they just didn't care. The child was beggar. his mother eventually came running from up the street and picked up his limp body and ran screaming. Sorry, we have to judge and act.
You obviously cared, did you do something? That question matters more than these other ones.
I yelled out to the crowd to ring an ambulance. I asked a number of people to call an ambulance. No one bothered. When I asked why they dont to call they all said they didnt sant to get involved. I should have grabbed a phone from someone and called myself. 500 or so buddhists, on a holy day, just stood there and watched an injured chld lay limp in the dirt.
I have thought about this for a long time.

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Malcolm
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Re: Fantasy

Post by Malcolm » Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:04 am

The Cicada wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:35 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:27 pm
The Cicada wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:33 pm


Q-Raj does have a point. Why don't Buddhist charities in the West work more actively and conspicuously so that they can convert and save savage and benighted mind-streams?
Precious human birth is a function of karma, not conversion.
According to your school, good friend. Nichirenites, and probably Pure Landers as well, aren't likely to agree with you that only certain human births (the "precious" ones) can be positively affected by Buddhist teaching.
If someone becomes interested in Dharma, this itself is proof of a precious human birth. Failure to sustain interest in Dvarma even after ample exposure is proof some element of a precious human birth is absent. Fir example, there are many people raised in Buddhist countries who squander it.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Queequeg
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Re: Fantasy

Post by Queequeg » Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:37 am

"The life preserver is thrown. If the drowning person doesn't see it, I guess, oh well. It doesn't mean we should yell and scream, throw it again and again, paint it day-glo, attach LEDs, anything, to try to get their attention. That would be disturbing to this pleasant state of mind I cultivated, and that's just ego talking anyway. And 'sides, that's their karma. Nothing I can do."
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

Snowbear
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Re: Fantasy

Post by Snowbear » Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:51 am

There are individuals with ideas like Trungpa Rinpoche's enlightened society, but lack of a social/political dimension in Buddhadharma is not a bad thing IMO - participating in charity, or social reform, etc. should remain an individual choice, not a religiously mandated one.
Last edited by Snowbear on Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:49 am, edited 2 times in total.

Snowbear
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Re: Fantasy

Post by Snowbear » Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:06 am

Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:06 pm
Whereas Buddhists do things without fanfare and incognito ? :spy:
I like that a lot when it comes to a Buddhist form of social engagement.

More to the point, in Buddhadharma there is only so much one can do to "help" in a world that is rapidly, anticlimactically impermanent. I don't think a Buddhist can shake off the sense that even with its ostensible help to others social engagement is a bit like coating poison with sugar - for both one's self and the recipient.
Last edited by Snowbear on Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:28 am, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Fantasy

Post by Snowbear » Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:04 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:34 pm
There are four immeasurables: love, compassion, sympathetic joy, and equanimity. It is a fault to allow equanimity to become indifference, nevertheless, of the four, equanimity is the most important.

Mahākāśyapa was walking through a town one day and saw a man eating a fish and kicking a dog to keep it away from his meal. Kāśypa started laughing at the sight and his student, frankly, was a little shocked. "Why are you laughing at that man kicking a dog?" he asked. Kāśyapa replied, "I am laughing because unbeknownst to that man, he is eating his mother and kicking his father. Samsara is a terrible place."

You should not concern yourself too much with what others do. Why? There is little one can do. You should focus on your bodhisattva path, and feel compassion for everyone, even those deficient Buddhists who don't call ambulances for injured children in Katmandu.
This, squared. :good:

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Fantasy

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:42 am

beer wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:44 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:20 am
beer wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:39 am


If we don't identify what is going wrong then we have no chance to change anything.
Critical intelligence is necessary. Judging things is necessary. Observing others actions and deciding what is right or wrong beneficial or non beneficial is necessary etc etc. Simply saying we are in samsara, the Kali Yuga is here, we should not judge others, we should only find fault in ourselves etc etc is no help at all. It is passive and irresponsible. Many people think not judging others or intervening in negative behaviour is acting ethically but it may be that they are just shit scared of confronting someone. The reality is most people are just piss weak and lazy.
I remember being at Swayambhunath on a holy day. Thousands of buddhists were there doing kora. A child was involved in a hit and run. No one ran to its aid. No one called the police or an ambulance. Thousands of so called buddhists and no one did shit. Why? People were to shit scared to get involved or they just didn't care. The child was beggar. his mother eventually came running from up the street and picked up his limp body and ran screaming. Sorry, we have to judge and act.
You obviously cared, did you do something? That question matters more than these other ones.
I yelled out to the crowd to ring an ambulance. I asked a number of people to call an ambulance. No one bothered. When I asked why they dont to call they all said they didnt sant to get involved. I should have grabbed a phone from someone and called myself. 500 or so buddhists, on a holy day, just stood there and watched an injured chld lay limp in the dirt.
I have thought about this for a long time.

Yeah, that's awful, no two ways about it, no real excuse for that behavior. It is a failure to practice Dharma, IMO. There are times where apathy and inaction are as bad as injury to another.

However, it's also worth understanding:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect

That this is not unique behavior, and it speaks to needing not only Buddhist training, but also basic knowledge of what to do in crises, being prepared to be of help. Therefore, sad as it is to say, in many situations people who run to help are the exceptional ones, and this not unique to Buddhists..read up on the example of Kitty Genovese and the others on the page.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

beer
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Re: Fantasy

Post by beer » Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:38 am

The very sad and tragic hit and run incident at Swayambhu to me highlights the fantasy some so called practitioners live in.
No one came to the child's aid apart from its mother.
Stop and think, if it was your own child you would instinctually run to its aid.
There were 500 or so buddhists there, many with children of there own and no one helped the child.
Helping an injured child is an instinctual and natural human reaction.

I have been around buddhists for nearly twenty years. Many of those years spent with Himalayan buddhists. I have pretty much been there and done that.
From my experience and analysis I have concluded that the majority live in a buddhist fantasy.
The fantasy has many levels some gross some subtle. We could say that the main cause is ignorance.
But that is way to easy.
In fact saying this, perpetuates the fantasy.

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Fantasy

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:42 am

beer wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:38 am
The very sad and tragic hit and run incident at Swayambhu to me highlights the fantasy some so called practitioners live in.
No one came to the child's aid apart from its mother.
Stop and think, if it was your own child you would instinctually run to its aid.
There were 500 or so buddhists there, many with children of there own and no one helped the child.
Helping an injured child is an instinctual and natural human reaction.

I have been around buddhists for nearly twenty years. Many of those years spent with Himalayan buddhists. I have pretty much been there and done that.
From my experience and analysis I have concluded that the majority live in a buddhist fantasy.
The fantasy has many levels some gross some subtle. We could say that the main cause is ignorance.
But that is way to easy.
In fact saying this, perpetuates the fantasy.

Did you see my post above? This is nothing unique to Buddhists. The fact that most people will just let someone else help instead of getting their own hands dirty is not really surprising, is it?
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

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