Fantasy

Casual conversation between friends. Anything goes (almost).
Tiago Simões
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Re: Fantasy

Post by Tiago Simões »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:40 pm
Buddhists could learn a thing or two from Christians and Muslims on this point.
No, I don't think this is true on any level at all.
I agree with Loppon. Buddhist charity organizations tend to be "not so obviously" Buddhist.

For example here in Portugal, one of the most influential charity organizations for the help of homeless people is C.A.S.A. which was founded by Pema Wangyal Rinpoche.

I doubt many people here in Portugal know that it has buddhist origins. On the other hand Christian charity organizations tend to be "in your face" obviously christian. So they stand out more...
beer
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Re: Fantasy

Post by beer »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:41 pm
beer wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:32 pm Stopping the guy kicking the dog or at least trying to stop him is perfectly ressonable and probably achievable withbthe right frame of mind and physicality
You missed the point of anecdote. And what about the fish?
I understand the message.
I cant find any reason why he didnt try to stop the guy hurting the dog. He could have and should have done somehing.
Not much he could have done for the fish unless he had certain powers. But that is another subject.
tingdzin
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Re: Fantasy

Post by tingdzin »

A dog tries to steal my food, he will get kicked ( or have a stick thrown at him). you've obviously never lived long in Asia.
Malcolm
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Re: Fantasy

Post by Malcolm »

beer wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:09 pm I cant find any reason why he didnt try to stop the guy hurting the dog. He could have and should have done somehing.
Give it some thought. Perhaps the dog ran away after being kicked (the usual reaction). You are so caught up in a fit of self-righteous indignation it is blinding you to the realities of the situation.

Do you have a one lifetime view or a multiple lifetime view?
A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha
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Re: Fantasy

Post by A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha »

beer wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:39 am I remember being at Swayambhunath on a holy day. Thousands of buddhists were there doing kora. A child was involved in a hit and run. No one ran to its aid. No one called the police or an ambulance. Thousands of so called buddhists and no one did shit. Why?
Maybe Mara was trying to distract them....but due to their experience in deep meditation...they had more resilience to distractions ... :shrug:
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Grigoris
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Re: Fantasy

Post by Grigoris »

beer wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:08 pm I could say that some of the responses to my comments are judgemental, that people are using crtical inteligence to decide what is right or wrong etc etc and I would be correct, and ithere is nothing wrong with you all doing that, because it is necessary.
So you are happy then. I mean, that's what you want people to do, right?

You did say:
If we don't identify what is going wrong then we have no chance to change anything.
Critical intelligence is necessary. Judging things is necessary. Observing others actions and deciding what is right or wrong beneficial or non beneficial is necessary etc etc.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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beer
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Re: Fantasy

Post by beer »

Grigoris wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:04 pm
beer wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:08 pm I could say that some of the responses to my comments are judgemental, that people are using crtical inteligence to decide what is right or wrong etc etc and I would be correct, and ithere is nothing wrong with you all doing that, because it is necessary.
So you are happy then. I mean, that's what you want people to do, right?

You did say:
If we don't identify what is going wrong then we have no chance to change anything.
Critical intelligence is necessary. Judging things is necessary. Observing others actions and deciding what is right or wrong beneficial or non beneficial is necessary etc etc.
Yes happy, no problem
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Queequeg
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Re: Fantasy

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:40 pm
Queequeg wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:03 pm Thinking oneself into complacency in the face of suffering that can be alleviated and calling it a spritual perfection is abhorrent, imo. Across Asia where Buddhism has penetrated, we see a correlation with an anemic social charity movement.
Evidence? For all 2500 years of its existence?
As far as I know, there have been episodes, but no sustained efforts. None that I know of who have made service to others a major element of their practice. There are no orders of renunciates dedicated to caring for the poor. There are no Dominicans or Franciscans. No Red Cross, no Salvation Army.
Buddhists could learn a thing or two from Christians and Muslims on this point.
No, I don't think this is true on any level at all.
Opinions abound.
Tiago Simões wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:54 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:40 pm
Buddhists could learn a thing or two from Christians and Muslims on this point.
No, I don't think this is true on any level at all.
I agree with Loppon. Buddhist charity organizations tend to be "not so obviously" Buddhist.

For example here in Portugal, one of the most influential charity organizations for the help of homeless people is C.A.S.A. which was founded by Pema Wangyal Rinpoche.

I doubt many people here in Portugal know that it has buddhist origins. On the other hand Christian charity organizations tend to be "in your face" obviously christian. So they stand out more...
One recent example does not negate 2500 years of history. Actually, this example sounds like it very much is building on the Catholic substrate of the Portuguese.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
beer
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Re: Fantasy

Post by beer »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:34 pm
beer wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:09 pm I cant find any reason why he didnt try to stop the guy hurting the dog. He could have and should have done somehing.
Give it some thought. Perhaps the dog ran away after being kicked (the usual reaction). You are so caught up in a fit of self-righteous indignation it is blinding you to the realities of the situation.

Do you have a one lifetime view or a multiple lifetime view?
I thought about it and even read it properly.
Im still morally and intellectually superior. Just joking.
I understand the stories message however I believe the story also sends quite a passive message.
beer
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Re: Fantasy

Post by beer »

Kunga Lhadzom wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:04 pm
beer wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:39 am I remember being at Swayambhunath on a holy day. Thousands of buddhists were there doing kora. A child was involved in a hit and run. No one ran to its aid. No one called the police or an ambulance. Thousands of so called buddhists and no one did shit. Why?
Maybe Mara was trying to distract them....but due to their experience in deep meditation...they had more resilience to distractions ... :shrug:
Please don't
jet.urgyen
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Re: Fantasy

Post by jet.urgyen »

when our eyes are genuinely open to this world it can be overwhelming
i don't pretend to know answers, but
it wont change, so it seems, so do your best.

this part is not in the great lamas biographies?
what they did when faced such dissapointment?
true dharma is inexpressible.

The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
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Yavana
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Re: Fantasy

Post by Yavana »

beer wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:32 pm Stopping the guy kicking the dog or at least trying to stop him is perfectly ressonable and probably achievable withbthe right frame of mind and physicality
Why are you trying to stop someone from defending their meal from an animal with a much hardier digestive track than a human being. Not only are you lacking compassion for the poor guy trying to eat, you're expressing poor judgement in wanting to accost, possibly intimidate or even attack the guy over a situation that is resolving itself. (Guy kicks at dog, dog moves on, dog finds scraps that feed it just as well and are inedible to humans.)

If I saw you doing something like that, you would be my eventual target because poor judgement and aggression are a destructive mix. I possess both and work hard, though imperfectly, not to combine them. Your behavior would be deluded, a "fantasy" you are very confidently acting out. Buddhists aren't immune to this by any means.
Malcolm
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Re: Fantasy

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:09 pm
There are no orders of renunciates dedicated to caring for the poor. There are no Dominicans or Franciscans. No Red Cross, no Salvation Army.
This was the job of kings, not mendicants. Hence, the systematic appeal by Buddhist authors to secular leaders to provide such services the poor and needy.

And of course, in Tibet at any rate, the monasteries were the source of social services, etc., which in times of peace, were supplied abundantly. Not sure why we need to have a Buddhist order of Franciscans. Monasteries in Tibet have been taking care of the poor since the beginning.
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Mantrik
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Re: Fantasy

Post by Mantrik »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:34 pm
beer wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:09 pm I cant find any reason why he didnt try to stop the guy hurting the dog. He could have and should have done somehing.
Give it some thought. Perhaps the dog ran away after being kicked (the usual reaction). You are so caught up in a fit of self-righteous indignation it is blinding you to the realities of the situation.

Do you have a one lifetime view or a multiple lifetime view?
Intervention isn't a bad thing per se.......stopping a being having pain inflicted on it is fine. Of course the dog could have rounded on the guy and given him rabies - any number of outcomes is possible.

Not knowing the circumstances it is easy to get it wrong:

I once saw a man in Rajasthan beating a donkey (or ass) which was clearly down, collapsed and seemingly dying in the hot dust. I stopped him, shoved him (possibly punched can't remember) , shouted at him and made it clear how cruel I thought he was being.

He was in tears and of course I had completely missed the point - unless it could get up it would die anyway, hence the beating to try desperately to make it move. The man was seeing his livelihood disappear in front of his eyes, and told me afterwards that his family would starve.
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Quay
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Re: Fantasy

Post by Quay »

When I find myself gazing outwardly with disdain and distraction I try to remember things like the Longchenpa verses thoughtfully posted here by Vasana. And when I'm really awash in my own cups I try to remember to get out and practice Dudjom Rinpoche's Prayer to Recognize My Own Faults. Both are for me excellent equanimity restoratives.
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.
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Queequeg
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Re: Fantasy

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:55 pm
Queequeg wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:09 pm
There are no orders of renunciates dedicated to caring for the poor. There are no Dominicans or Franciscans. No Red Cross, no Salvation Army.
This was the job of kings, not mendicants. Hence, the systematic appeal by Buddhist authors to secular leaders to provide such services the poor and needy.

And of course, in Tibet at any rate, the monasteries were the source of social services, etc., which in times of peace, were supplied abundantly. Not sure why we need to have a Buddhist order of Franciscans. Monasteries in Tibet have been taking care of the poor since the beginning.
We can go back and forth on this.

In the Christian world, Kings are also supposed to look after the welfare of all subjects, poor included. These Christian orders arose inspired by Jesus. Muslims look after others as a teaching of Mohamed.

I'm not going to try and refute your claims about monasteries in Tibet. I've also heard of the Dalai Lama looking for monasrics to do more outreach, and I've heard Thurman remark along the same lines. Also, Tibet is not representative of all Buddhist societies.

There is extensive research and commentary on this as well coming out decidedly questioning why Buddhists do not do as much outreach.

As I said, opinions abound and I do hope that more of the example of these Tibetan monasteries you speak of increasingly become the norm.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Quay
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Re: Fantasy

Post by Quay »

Queequeg wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 8:09 pm...
In the Christian world, Kings are also supposed to look after the welfare of all subjects, poor included. These Christian orders arose inspired by Jesus....
Not exactly. Medieval history was one of my academic areas of interest and award of a degree. After Constantine called the first Council of Nicaea a lot of canon law was first formed and the Christianized version of the divine right of kings established to codify and order the (patriarchal) hierarchies that would rule much of the Mediterranean and Europe for centuries. "As above so below" was the theological principle ordering human society, or so the newly created One True Church promulgated. Thus as God rules the heavens so the kings rule the world. Much of the Gospels were set carefully aside in favor of new laws and ideas, especially around royal lineages and monarchy. The monarch's word was law and though anyone could provide advice or instruction their duty was as they saw fit, basically. Good ones did indeed try to look after everyone but in the main most looked after their own interests.

So on a good day with a good king, things weren't too bad for most of society. But most of the time it was otherwise and though there was much talk about Jesus and his message it was usually in the form of the nobility of the poor and how the nobility had nice places to live and enough food by divine right.
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.
Malcolm
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Re: Fantasy

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 8:09 pm These Christian orders arose inspired by Jesus.
Well, no, they were inspired by a desire to convert heathens. Most so-called Christian charity work arose as a means of conversion, to save benighted savages.
Muslims look after others as a teaching of Mohamed.
Muslims mostly look after each other. It is not like there are huge Muslim charities out there dispensing aid to all and sundry. Really, dude, you are reaching here.
Malcolm
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Re: Fantasy

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 8:09 pm
I'm not going to try and refute your claims about monasteries in Tibet. I've also heard of the Dalai Lama looking for monasrics to do more outreach, and I've heard Thurman remark along the same lines. Also, Tibet is not representative of all Buddhist societies.
The same applies to Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, Burma, etc.

There is extensive research and commentary on this as well coming out decidedly questioning why Buddhists do not do as much outreach.
The Buddhisms these studies examine are post-colonial Buddhisms in societies where the integration of Buddhism into the social fabric was badly disrupted. Vietnam, Cambodia, Sri Lanka, Korea, and even Japan to some extent are examples of this.

I reject your claim, since you have advanced no evidence to support it.
A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha
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Re: Fantasy

Post by A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha »

Queequeg wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 8:09 pm why Buddhists do not do as much outreach.
Maybe because the "outreach" done by others is based on ego and other agenda (financial gain, exploitation)
Whereas Buddhists do things without fanfare and incognito ? :spy:
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