Fantasy

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beer
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Re: Fantasy

Post by beer » Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:39 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:42 am
beer wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:38 am
The very sad and tragic hit and run incident at Swayambhu to me highlights the fantasy some so called practitioners live in.
No one came to the child's aid apart from its mother.
Stop and think, if it was your own child you would instinctually run to its aid.
There were 500 or so buddhists there, many with children of there own and no one helped the child.
Helping an injured child is an instinctual and natural human reaction.

I have been around buddhists for nearly twenty years. Many of those years spent with Himalayan buddhists. I have pretty much been there and done that.
From my experience and analysis I have concluded that the majority live in a buddhist fantasy.
The fantasy has many levels some gross some subtle. We could say that the main cause is ignorance.
But that is way to easy.
In fact saying this, perpetuates the fantasy.

Did you see my post above? This is nothing unique to Buddhists. The fact that most people will just let someone else help instead of getting their own hands dirty is not really surprising, is it?
I will check out your post.
I can not comment on it until I look into it.

I am focusing on the psychology and behaviour of buddhists in particular. Research regarding human behaviour can be very helpful. Thank you.
It is beer o'clock!

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Re: Fantasy

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:33 am

beer wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:39 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:42 am
beer wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:38 am
The very sad and tragic hit and run incident at Swayambhu to me highlights the fantasy some so called practitioners live in.
No one came to the child's aid apart from its mother.
Stop and think, if it was your own child you would instinctually run to its aid.
There were 500 or so buddhists there, many with children of there own and no one helped the child.
Helping an injured child is an instinctual and natural human reaction.

I have been around buddhists for nearly twenty years. Many of those years spent with Himalayan buddhists. I have pretty much been there and done that.
From my experience and analysis I have concluded that the majority live in a buddhist fantasy.
The fantasy has many levels some gross some subtle. We could say that the main cause is ignorance.
But that is way to easy.
In fact saying this, perpetuates the fantasy.

Did you see my post above? This is nothing unique to Buddhists. The fact that most people will just let someone else help instead of getting their own hands dirty is not really surprising, is it?
I will check out your post.
I can not comment on it until I look into it.

I am focusing on the psychology and behaviour of buddhists in particular. Research regarding human behaviour can be very helpful. Thank you.
It is beer o'clock!
What i'm saying is, the Bystander Effect is known. I would chalk it up to people being people, and this being samsara, more than the specific hypocrisy of Buddhists. Maybe there's also cultural mores and such i'm unaware of, but I know the bystander phenomenon also happens in different cultural settings, as you can see from the wiki link on it. Not saying there is nothing to criticize there, just that it may be less unique than you think.
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Aryjna
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Re: Fantasy

Post by Aryjna » Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:35 am

beer wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:38 am
I have been around buddhists for nearly twenty years. Many of those years spent with Himalayan buddhists. I have pretty much been there and done that.
From my experience and analysis I have concluded that the majority live in a buddhist fantasy.
The fantasy has many levels some gross some subtle. We could say that the main cause is ignorance.
But that is way to easy.
In fact saying this, perpetuates the fantasy.
You keep saying that, though none has said the opposite. I don't think anyone believes the majority of 'buddhists' are faultless. Is there some point to this or do you just want to vent?

Bristollad
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Re: Fantasy

Post by Bristollad » Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:29 am

There was interesting research done at Lancaster University concerning what influences people to help strangers. They showed that whether the stranger was considered part of their group or not has a significant effect. see here for a quick summary https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/insights/f ... elp-others I think developing equanimity and seeing all others as part of your own in-group would be an effective pyschological base for developing compassion...fancy that :idea:

I could be far off the mark Beer, but your posts sound to me like you feel guilt for not being able to effectively help this child. This guilt is then manifesting as anger and disgust towards the other people there, who also did not help this child. Which leads me to wonder, what have you done so that you could render aid more effectively in the future?

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Grigoris
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Re: Fantasy

Post by Grigoris » Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:51 am

Queequeg wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:30 pm
Remarkable the antipathy to the suggestion that it's a good thing to care for other beings and do what can be done to alleviate suffering.
That's a strange projection, I was more under the impression that people were objecting to the judgmental and overall holier-than-thou stance of the OP.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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beer
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Re: Fantasy

Post by beer » Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:56 am

Bristollad wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:29 am
There was interesting research done at Lancaster University concerning what influences people to help strangers. They showed that whether the stranger was considered part of their group or not has a significant effect. see here for a quick summary https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/insights/f ... elp-others I think developing equanimity and seeing all others as part of your own in-group would be an effective pyschological base for developing compassion...fancy that :idea:

I could be far off the mark Beer, but your posts sound to me like you feel guilt for not being able to effectively help this child. This guilt is then manifesting as anger and disgust towards the other people there, who also did not help this child. Which leads me to wonder, what have you done so that you could render aid more effectively in the future?
Thanks for your concern. I dont feel guilty. I wasnt angry or disgusted then or now.
Shocked and confused yes.

beer
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Re: Fantasy

Post by beer » Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:17 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:51 am
Queequeg wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:30 pm
Remarkable the antipathy to the suggestion that it's a good thing to care for other beings and do what can be done to alleviate suffering.
That's a strange projection, I was more under the impression that people were objecting to the judgmental and overall holier-than-thou stance of the OP.
I submitted a post related to my mistakes and faults but I cant see it anywhere.
I dont need to say that I am not perfect it is self evident. However having faults does not restrict me from pointing out others faults. Many of the things I highlighted I have done myself. I am.genuinely seeking solutions to these problems. I havent seen to many people exploring the issue I raised let alone offering any solutions. Most people just post about being judgemental. Personaly I expected more than that.

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Grigoris
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Re: Fantasy

Post by Grigoris » Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:36 am

What do you expect? That we tell you how to tell others to be good people? We can only really be responsible for our actions. We can try to educate people, or motivate them, but in the end it is up to them how they will act and what they will do.

Basically the only thing you can do is try your best, be an example to others, and hope they follow suit.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

PeterC
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Re: Fantasy

Post by PeterC » Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:13 pm

There are many places where if you help someone who has suffered an accident, you run a material risk of being held financially responsible for the accident itself. I don’t know if that’s the case in Nepal but it’s certainly the case, or perceived to be the case in several other countries. So the response may not just be the bystander effect.

But as several people have pointed out: what is the point of bemoaning other peoples’ faults. The only behavior you can reliably change is your own. If you see someone acting in an immoral or unpleasant way, your reaction should be: how terrible, they must be suffering from very serious delusions to be acting like this. Or perhaps: how terrible, they are accumulating karma that will cause future suffering from them. The right response to bad behavior is compassion for the actor, not anger.

I also hesitate to generalize about lack of charitable institutions in majority-Buddhist countries. I can think of *lots* in contemporary Thailand, Japan and Taiwan. I know of no study that compares charitable activities by ambient religion and also accounts for the (very significant) non-religious cultural factors involved. But even if the answer were unfavorable to contemporary Buddhist organisations, my feeling would still be: so what.

The practice of the Dharma is first and foremost a personal activity; others can’t do it for you and you can’t do it for others (for the most part). It isn’t without social context, and one’s own actions are tremendously important. But judging others’ behavior can rarely if ever be useful for our own practice.

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Malcolm
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Re: Fantasy

Post by Malcolm » Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:58 pm

beer wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:17 am
I havent seen to many people exploring the issue I raised let alone offering any solutions.
Most likely, then, you can assume that is because inferring from a particular instance to a general population is a fallacy. That is what racists do.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Josef
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Re: Fantasy

Post by Josef » Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:51 pm

The Cicada wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:35 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:27 pm
The Cicada wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:33 pm


Q-Raj does have a point. Why don't Buddhist charities in the West work more actively and conspicuously so that they can convert and save savage and benighted mind-streams?
Precious human birth is a function of karma, not conversion.
According to your school, good friend. Nichirenites, and probably Pure Landers as well, aren't likely to agree with you that only certain human births (the "precious" ones) can be positively affected by Buddhist teaching.
Norwegian wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:22 pm
This has nothing to do with Buddhadharma.
Josef wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:15 pm
Our job is to alleviate suffering, not inflict it.
The bodhisattva practice of giving and the spread of Buddhadharma have nothing to do with Buddhist teaching? What about handmade cushions?

Besides I think that organizations in places like Taiwan are already doing this sort of thing.
There is no perfection of evangelism in the bodhisattva path.
Take a good look at paths with conversion tactics and you will find gross suffering throughout history and in the present.
This is also relevant to the OP. If people are actually going to practice dharma, being converted through any efforts other than their own will and intent will not lead to authenticity. It will lead to suffering and delusion.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Virgo
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Re: Fantasy

Post by Virgo » Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:09 pm

Josef wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:51 pm

There is no perfection of evangelism in the bodhisattva path.
Take a good look at paths with conversion tactics and you will find gross suffering throughout history and in the present.
This is also relevant to the OP. If people are actually going to practice dharma, being converted through any efforts other than their own will and intent will not lead to authenticity. It will lead to suffering and delusion.
:twothumbsup:

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Fantasy

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:21 pm

Posting this again because it so far didn't enter into the conversation, but is worth addressing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

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Vasana
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Re: Fantasy

Post by Vasana » Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:38 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:21 pm
Posting this again because it so far didn't enter into the conversation, but is worth addressing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect
I shared it earlier in the thread and Beer (the o.p) saw it but didn't have much to say about it.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

madhusudan
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Re: Fantasy

Post by madhusudan » Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:59 pm

PeterC wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:13 pm
There are many places where if you help someone who has suffered an accident, you run a material risk of being held financially responsible for the accident itself. I don’t know if that’s the case in Nepal but it’s certainly the case, or perceived to be the case in several other countries. So the response may not just be the bystander effect.
From my experience in Nepal I remember there being no right to medical care. It was pay upfront or no care.

When a friend's mother took ill he gathered friends and family and we all pooled money together and went to the hospital with him to donate blood. Without money and blood, you get nothing.

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Snowbear
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Re: Fantasy

Post by Snowbear » Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:52 pm

Vasana wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:38 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:21 pm
Posting this again because it so far didn't enter into the conversation, but is worth addressing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect
I shared it earlier in the thread and Beer (the o.p) saw it but didn't have much to say about it.
Just didn't fit the "Buddhists live in fantasy" narrative.

I'd like to also introduce another idea in this discussion: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype

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The Cicada
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Re: Fantasy

Post by The Cicada » Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:49 am

madhusudan wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:59 pm
PeterC wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:13 pm
There are many places where if you help someone who has suffered an accident, you run a material risk of being held financially responsible for the accident itself. I don’t know if that’s the case in Nepal but it’s certainly the case, or perceived to be the case in several other countries. So the response may not just be the bystander effect.
From my experience in Nepal I remember there being no right to medical care. It was pay upfront or no care.

When a friend's mother took ill he gathered friends and family and we all pooled money together and went to the hospital with him to donate blood. Without money and blood, you get nothing.
... Isn't Nepal a predominantly Hindu country, not Buddhist?
Josef wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:51 pm
There is no perfection of evangelism in the bodhisattva path.
Take a good look at paths with conversion tactics and you will find gross suffering throughout history and in the present.
This is also relevant to the OP. If people are actually going to practice dharma, being converted through any efforts other than their own will and intent will not lead to authenticity. It will lead to suffering and delusion.
The Sutras often reference bodhisattvas developing skill in teaching and converting others. This obviously doesn't mean forcing Buddhadharma on anyone or "cramming it down their throats," and that's not what I'm referring to either. (Although, instances where a ruler is converted mean that Buddhism becomes the legally backed "national religion" in that land.) There is nothing destructive about introducing others to Buddhadharma or even using a bit of persuasion so that individuals can relate with the teaching who otherwise would not have.

Inviting people to learn about and engage in Buddhist practice through a Buddhist charity would not be destructive either, in my view. It's merely offering an enduring gift alongside an ephemeral one.
PeterC wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:13 pm
But as several people have pointed out: what is the point of bemoaning other peoples’ faults. The only behavior you can reliably change is your own. If you see someone acting in an immoral or unpleasant way, your reaction should be: how terrible, they must be suffering from very serious delusions to be acting like this. Or perhaps: how terrible, they are accumulating karma that will cause future suffering from them. The right response to bad behavior is compassion for the actor, not anger.
I would think that it's a bit more nuanced than that. That being said, I hope the people who take this "I can only change me" attitude to what I would say is an extreme also appreciate all of the opportunities I have afforded them on this forum to develop patience, compassion, and understanding. Sometimes you take lessons and sometimes you give them. I'm giving back. :mrgreen:

Queequeg wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:37 am
"The life preserver is thrown. If the drowning person doesn't see it, I guess, oh well. It doesn't mean we should yell and scream, throw it again and again, paint it day-glo, attach LEDs, anything, to try to get their attention. That would be disturbing to this pleasant state of mind I cultivated, and that's just ego talking anyway. And 'sides, that's their karma. Nothing I can do."
You might have gotten the impression from reading the Sutras that these bodhisattvas who go around literally giving away their arms and legs to all and sundry in the name of bodhicitta are all some kind of ambitious "captains of industry" in the Buddha's empire, racking up merit and figuratively carrying the world on their backs...

But true inner peace, Q... True inner peace is the way of the apathetic employee. Don't even ask me about Dharma. I just work for Lord Buddha.

:meditate:


A far cry from those disciples Lord Buddha warned would be risking their very lives to go into a new area to spread His teaching. 😢

beer
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Re: Fantasy

Post by beer » Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:53 am

beer wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:20 am
I see a lot of so called practitioners living in a fanttasy. People play dress up and act like ngakpa"s or yogini"s. Some say they are dakini"s and vwear chubpas and ornaments.. Others act wildly and say what ever comes into there mind. They think they arre being spontaneous and beyond right and wrong. They talk about emptiness and tantra and give out advice like they are some kind of authority. Others talk about their teachers as if they know the eachers mind. They think they have pure vision and devotion but it is mostly there own projection. People run everwhere after wangs but they dont even know what wang it is, and the comitments they have supposedly taken. So much effort is put into receiving teachings but people just blindly believe what is being said. People simply allow themselves to become brainwashed. Some monks do three yar retreat, serve their teacher and live in retreat places but the try to have sex with every western girl that comes to the retreat place for polgrimage. Othet so called Lama"s sit in palaces whilst beggars sit outside their palace walls People need to wake up. They need to look at themselves and there situation honestly. Most dharma practitioners struggle to be a good citizen, friend or neighbour. Whats the use of all this complicated philosophy and esoteric practice if you cant even be a good human being?
"I see a lot of so called practitioners living in a fantasy. People play dress up and act like ngakpa"s or yogini"s. Some say they are dakini"s and wear chubpas and ornaments."
What is the cause of this?
Why do some practitioners think and act this way?

beer
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Re: Fantasy

Post by beer » Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:48 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:21 pm
Posting this again because it so far didn't enter into the conversation, but is worth addressing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect
I read it, thank you.
An interesting theory. The groups in the mentioned studies have things in common with the Kathmandu group but the Kathmandu group has unique and specific traits.
Thanks for the link. I will look into it further.

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Re: Fantasy

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:08 am

beer wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:48 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:21 pm
Posting this again because it so far didn't enter into the conversation, but is worth addressing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect
I read it, thank you.
An interesting theory. The groups in the mentioned studies have things in common with the Kathmandu group but the Kathmandu group has unique and specific traits.
Thanks for the link. I will look into it further.
In what sense? That they were Buddhist? Again, the phenomena is observed independent of culture, they have unique traits to you because of your viewpoint, but there is little reason to think their lack of action is related to specific characteristics, rather than to the Bystander Effect.
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