Hawking has last laugh

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Queequeg
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Re: Hawking has last laugh

Post by Queequeg » Thu May 03, 2018 7:43 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 7:28 pm
Let's imagine the conversation with Hawking.
I'd like to investgate how the universe was created and how it formed and test various theories.'
'OK. You have no evidence that it was ever created so you can forget that.'
'Oh, right, well I'll focus on how it was formed then.'
'You assume it was formed, but all we have evidence of is a continuum of energy.'
'Bugger. Maybe I'll investigate solving the world energy crisis instead then.'
'That'd be useful.' :)
Who's who?

Regardless, this is not how it would go at all.

Your final analysis, you come down with a utilitarian expectation.

I simply disagree with you.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Mantrik
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Re: Hawking has last laugh

Post by Mantrik » Thu May 03, 2018 10:57 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 7:43 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 7:28 pm
Let's imagine the conversation with Hawking.
I'd like to investgate how the universe was created and how it formed and test various theories.'
'OK. You have no evidence that it was ever created so you can forget that.'
'Oh, right, well I'll focus on how it was formed then.'
'You assume it was formed, but all we have evidence of is a continuum of energy.'
'Bugger. Maybe I'll investigate solving the world energy crisis instead then.'
'That'd be useful.' :)
Who's who?

Regardless, this is not how it would go at all.

Your final analysis, you come down with a utilitarian expectation.

I simply disagree with you.
No, I have no expectation from a futile investigation based on an unproven premise. It is all conjecture and thus trivial compared with actually conducting research based on a proven premise. I wouldn't be surprised if Hawking isn't cackling away in the afterlife at the confuddlement his final vaute face has created. Hence the OP. ;)
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Queequeg
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Re: Hawking has last laugh

Post by Queequeg » Thu May 03, 2018 11:28 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 10:57 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 7:43 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 7:28 pm
Let's imagine the conversation with Hawking.
I'd like to investgate how the universe was created and how it formed and test various theories.'
'OK. You have no evidence that it was ever created so you can forget that.'
'Oh, right, well I'll focus on how it was formed then.'
'You assume it was formed, but all we have evidence of is a continuum of energy.'
'Bugger. Maybe I'll investigate solving the world energy crisis instead then.'
'That'd be useful.' :)
Who's who?

Regardless, this is not how it would go at all.

Your final analysis, you come down with a utilitarian expectation.

I simply disagree with you.
No, I have no expectation from a futile investigation based on an unproven premise. It is all conjecture and thus trivial compared with actually conducting research based on a proven premise. I wouldn't be surprised if Hawking isn't cackling away in the afterlife at the confuddlement his final vaute face has created. Hence the OP. ;)
I suppose we all have our private jokes.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Dan74
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Re: Hawking has last laugh

Post by Dan74 » Fri May 04, 2018 7:55 am

There are may clever people in physics and what they say is not mere speculation, but always backed up either with observation or theory.

One relatively simple but profound fact I explained to the kids recently is the size of observable universe, which directly depends on the age of the universe, which itself is estimated using observations of stages of star decay. Since the universe began approx 13.8 billion years ago, we cannot even theoretically observe anything further than 13.8 billion light years away, since the light from 'there' would not have had time to reach us yet, and what we do observe at the furthest reaches is millions of years old..

I am not a physicist, but took a couple of physics units at Uni. Special Relativity with its thought experiments is cool.

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Re: Hawking has last laugh

Post by Mantrik » Fri May 04, 2018 8:46 am

Dan74 wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 7:55 am
Since the universe began approx 13.8 billion years ago, we cannot even theoretically observe anything further than 13.8 billion light years away,
There isn't evidence that there was a beginning at all, I don't think. It is a bit like saying we can only see as far as the horizon therefore that is the edge of the world. This idea of a 'border' was something Hawking struggled with and flip-flopped over.

I know humans crave certainty and want their Gods in defined forms, their Elements to be a defined number etc. but applying limitations to the unobservable and immeasurable, is something which I can't get my head around.
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Re: Hawking has last laugh

Post by Dan74 » Fri May 04, 2018 8:52 am

Mantrik wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 8:46 am
Dan74 wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 7:55 am
Since the universe began approx 13.8 billion years ago, we cannot even theoretically observe anything further than 13.8 billion light years away,
There isn't evidence that there was a beginning at all, I don't think. It is a bit like saying we can only see as far as the horizon therefore that is the edge of the world. This idea of a 'border' was something Hawking struggled with and flip-flopped over.

I know humans crave certainty and want their Gods in defined forms, their Elements to be a defined number etc. but applying limitations to the unobservable and immeasurable, is something which I can't get my head around.
https://www.space.com/24054-how-old-is- ... verse.html

Border-boundary means something quite different, I believe. Age can be measured without a sense of a border. Imagine an interval on the real number line from 0 to 1 which includes all the possible numbers in the between. Now remove 0. There is now no start, but it is still length 1.

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Re: Hawking has last laugh

Post by Mantrik » Fri May 04, 2018 9:00 am

Dan74 wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 8:52 am
Mantrik wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 8:46 am
Dan74 wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 7:55 am
Since the universe began approx 13.8 billion years ago, we cannot even theoretically observe anything further than 13.8 billion light years away,
There isn't evidence that there was a beginning at all, I don't think. It is a bit like saying we can only see as far as the horizon therefore that is the edge of the world. This idea of a 'border' was something Hawking struggled with and flip-flopped over.

I know humans crave certainty and want their Gods in defined forms, their Elements to be a defined number etc. but applying limitations to the unobservable and immeasurable, is something which I can't get my head around.
https://www.space.com/24054-how-old-is- ... verse.html

Border means something quite different. Age can be measured without a sense of a border. Imagine an interval on the real number line from 0 to 1 which includes all the possible numbers in the between. Now remove 0. There is now no start, but it is still length 1.
Seems the same - we take what we can observe and make a best guess, using our own concepts of time, space, number etc. But all we are really able to observe is change.

The observable evidence does not indicate a point at which something arose out of nothing, just that the 'something' is always changing. Switching the light on does not create the energy, it just changes the observable form of it.
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Queequeg
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Re: Hawking has last laugh

Post by Queequeg » Fri May 04, 2018 3:14 pm

Mantrik, for all your moaning about boundaries, you seem intent on putting people in neat little boxes that are easy to punch and kick.

Your caricature of scientists is not accurate. But if it brings you comfort to have defined borders, well, grok that. :tongue:
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Re: Hawking has last laugh

Post by WeiHan » Sat May 05, 2018 6:30 am

These days, most important and solvable problems in Physics seem to have been solved. Pushing further inevitably results in the pursue seemingly more metaphysical in nature. This could be the reason why Physics departments no longer attract the most imaginative and intelligent students of the cohort but other fields like AI gains ground.

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Re: Hawking has last laugh

Post by Mantrik » Sat May 05, 2018 8:00 am

Queequeg wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 3:14 pm
Mantrik, for all your moaning about boundaries, you seem intent on putting people in neat little boxes that are easy to punch and kick.

Your caricature of scientists is not accurate. But if it brings you comfort to have defined borders, well, grok that. :tongue:
Not at all. I'm happy to kick people without boundaries too. :)

The simple act of finding irony in the unstable position of one of the world's greatest minds is of course a narrow focus, but I can extrapolate and connect that condition to most of us, including those of us who change their minds about being Buddhists, about Brexit, about Gurus etc.

I try not to apply limitations, which of course is a limitation. ;)
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Re: Hawking has last laugh

Post by WeiHan » Sat May 05, 2018 9:37 am

Mantrik wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 8:00 am
Queequeg wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 3:14 pm
Mantrik, for all your moaning about boundaries, you seem intent on putting people in neat little boxes that are easy to punch and kick.

Your caricature of scientists is not accurate. But if it brings you comfort to have defined borders, well, grok that. :tongue:
Not at all. I'm happy to kick people without boundaries too. :)

The simple act of finding irony in the unstable position of one of the world's greatest minds is of course a narrow focus, but I can extrapolate and connect that condition to most of us, including those of us who change their minds about being Buddhists, about Brexit, about Gurus etc.

I try not to apply limitations, which of course is a limitation. ;)
Are these necessarily bad things- to change positions on difficult problems that are hard to find fix answers? To me, only religionist type of people seek fast, fix and simplistic answers to difficult and complex problems. In contrast, I think people that really think hard but seem to change position on difficult issues are really great people communicate meaningful with.

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Re: Hawking has last laugh

Post by DharmaN00b » Sat May 05, 2018 11:20 am

Isn't it a bit like Schrodingers cat where we've got something to prove but no way of actually proving it?

I dunno maybe some things are best left in a box, even if they have/or have not potential.

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Re: Hawking has last laugh

Post by The Cicada » Sat May 05, 2018 1:47 pm

Guys, dudes, bros...

It's already been proven that the Earth is flat. Stop fueling the conspiracy and go vote.

Sheesh.

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Re: Hawking has last laugh

Post by Dan74 » Sat May 05, 2018 2:48 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 9:00 am
Dan74 wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 8:52 am
Mantrik wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 8:46 am


There isn't evidence that there was a beginning at all, I don't think. It is a bit like saying we can only see as far as the horizon therefore that is the edge of the world. This idea of a 'border' was something Hawking struggled with and flip-flopped over.

I know humans crave certainty and want their Gods in defined forms, their Elements to be a defined number etc. but applying limitations to the unobservable and immeasurable, is something which I can't get my head around.
https://www.space.com/24054-how-old-is- ... verse.html

Border means something quite different. Age can be measured without a sense of a border. Imagine an interval on the real number line from 0 to 1 which includes all the possible numbers in the between. Now remove 0. There is now no start, but it is still length 1.
Seems the same - we take what we can observe and make a best guess, using our own concepts of time, space, number etc. But all we are really able to observe is change.

The observable evidence does not indicate a point at which something arose out of nothing, just that the 'something' is always changing. Switching the light on does not create the energy, it just changes the observable form of it.
Not sure where the disagreement lies. We know about the life-cycle of stars. By studying the oldest observable stars, we deduce the age of the universe, ie when they were first formed. And then other indicators, like the expansion, etc etc. When they all arrive at a very similar figure, the evidence is pretty compelling that this estimate is pretty good.

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Re: Hawking has last laugh

Post by Mantrik » Sat May 05, 2018 4:29 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 2:48 pm
By studying the oldest observable stars, we deduce the age of the universe, ie when they were first formed. And then other indicators, like the expansion, etc etc. When they all arrive at a very similar figure, the evidence is pretty compelling that this estimate is pretty good.
That's the point. People extrapolate from the observable, but there is absolutely no evidence of a 'beginning', only evidence of energy taking a particular form at a time we can guess.
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

WeiHan
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Re: Hawking has last laugh

Post by WeiHan » Sat May 05, 2018 5:46 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 4:29 pm
Dan74 wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 2:48 pm
By studying the oldest observable stars, we deduce the age of the universe, ie when they were first formed. And then other indicators, like the expansion, etc etc. When they all arrive at a very similar figure, the evidence is pretty compelling that this estimate is pretty good.
That's the point. People extrapolate from the observable, but there is absolutely no evidence of a 'beginning', only evidence of energy taking a particular form at a time we can guess.
Just to clarify. It is not Stephen Hawking's changing of position from a borderless universe to one with border that you are at now. But it is with "the lack of evidence" of the big bang theory.

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Re: Hawking has last laugh

Post by Mantrik » Sat May 05, 2018 7:39 pm

WeiHan wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 5:46 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 4:29 pm
Dan74 wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 2:48 pm
By studying the oldest observable stars, we deduce the age of the universe, ie when they were first formed. And then other indicators, like the expansion, etc etc. When they all arrive at a very similar figure, the evidence is pretty compelling that this estimate is pretty good.
That's the point. People extrapolate from the observable, but there is absolutely no evidence of a 'beginning', only evidence of energy taking a particular form at a time we can guess.
Just to clarify. It is not Stephen Hawking's changing of position from a borderless universe to one with border that you are at now. But it is with "the lack of evidence" of the big bang theory.
The universe, with or without border, has no space or time beyond the point at which we can measure them, as stated in the OP. So 'Big Bang' or any other 'beginning' is in the realm of the measureless, and really just conjecture. I would argue that you can't extrapolate (like that word) from the measurable to the immeasurable. All you can do is compare one set of events you can measure to another set of events you can measure, and then .... guess what may have preceded them.
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

WeiHan
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Re: Hawking has last laugh

Post by WeiHan » Wed May 09, 2018 9:21 am

Mantrik wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 7:39 pm
WeiHan wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 5:46 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 4:29 pm


That's the point. People extrapolate from the observable, but there is absolutely no evidence of a 'beginning', only evidence of energy taking a particular form at a time we can guess.
Just to clarify. It is not Stephen Hawking's changing of position from a borderless universe to one with border that you are at now. But it is with "the lack of evidence" of the big bang theory.
The universe, with or without border, has no space or time beyond the point at which we can measure them, as stated in the OP. So 'Big Bang' or any other 'beginning' is in the realm of the measureless, and really just conjecture. I would argue that you can't extrapolate (like that word) from the measurable to the immeasurable. All you can do is compare one set of events you can measure to another set of events you can measure, and then .... guess what may have preceded them.
Everybody are entitled to say whatever they like. The difference between Science and others is that Science is rigorous in the proof.

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Re: Hawking has last laugh

Post by Dan74 » Wed May 09, 2018 3:35 pm

We are mostly guessing here (no physicist, let alone astrophysicists?).

I guess Mantrik is saying that the origination of the Universe is beyond the reach of science, since this is when the laws of physics began. I don't know. Maybe. Maybe they can reach it, the physicist. You can look at a bird and if you know enough about birds, perhaps determine what kind of egg it hatched out of, forgive the weak analogy..

But, yes, fundamentally physicists need evidence for their theories. Although some of the modern theories are speculative (and openly so, like multiverse, holographic universe, a variety of superstring theories, etc), the accepted ones like Special and General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics and its offshoots, have amassed a great deal of evidence from their predictive power.

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Re: Hawking has last laugh

Post by Queequeg » Wed May 09, 2018 4:33 pm

Mantrik, you wrote:
The science behind all this leaves me cold, but it amuses and saddens me a little that such a wondrous mind was used on such a trivial pursuit, and even he couldn't make up his mind.
The title of this thread should have been "Mantrik has last laugh".

Your basic thesis is that unless a "wondrous mind" is applied to practical pursuits, like "solving the world energy crisis", it only deserves bemusement and rather inspires sadness (though I'm skeptical that it actually makes you sad.)

And you further ridicule someone who showed throughout his career that he was willing to change his mind in the face of new information. To me, that is an admirable person. There is nothing more pathetic than a dogmatist digging in against overwhelming evidence.

The underlying assumptions of your approach are difficult to accept. This is the same kind of utilitarian thinking that is leading to the dismantling of liberal arts faculties throughout higher education. "Who needs Shakespeare? Who needs fine arts? Who needs musicians? We need scientists, but not just any scientist, only scientists who do something practical."

Most of what's beautiful and makes life worth living is impractical, pointless. Inquiries about the origin of the universe, as futile and practically useless as they may be, go to our natural curiosity about life.

Sure, we need more engineers, biologists, neurologists... to develop clean energy, cure cancer, cure alzheimers... we also need people who stare at a piece of paper until the structure of atoms and the universe make sense. We also need painters and musicians, chefs, actors, filmmakers, magicians, and all sorts of people to inspire wonder and entertain us. They make the road so much more interesting.

YMMV.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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