authorization

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clyde
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authorization

Post by clyde » Thu May 31, 2018 5:47 am

Another thread about a teacher’s authorization gave rise to the following questions:

If someone teaches a practice without authorization, what happens?
What happens to the teacher? What happens to the student?
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

Wicked Yeshe
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Re: authorization

Post by Wicked Yeshe » Thu May 31, 2018 6:24 am

Their daath is turned into the crown of Ialdabaoth who rushes them both downwards were their faces are crushed against the bottom of hell.

No, but seriously. It is dangerous. Integrity of lineage means a lot to us buddhists because there is incredible value in having a teacher who was checked out by another teacher etc. That brings both student and disciple to enlightenment.

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Re: authorization

Post by muni » Thu May 31, 2018 8:26 am

:namaste:

The very authorization must be by Bodhichitta for the welfare of all and all. So for the welfare of the teacher and all students till nature of teacher – students is fully recognized-actualized ( or how I must say that...). At least this is how i see it, therefore do not merely accept this. The sky is vast to use as bin.

At the other hand when that teacher is speaking by words of the liberating tools (texts) whatever he is, a student ready to fully trust in nature can somehow get inspired, even the teacher is not fully awaken, just as by reading a book.

If the teacher however is completely acting against or opposed to the liberating Dharma, then I do not know so directly how there can be any benefit for him-her and students.

Then there is also the story of the dog tooth as an example of trust, strong faith.
The teacher is mostly the only emphasize, but the ready student to trust nature despite the hardship there can be experienced, that is as well of the most importance for liberation, I guess.

As far as 'in future lives', ( so experienced) when there would be the opportunity and skills to help, I wish to remain hidden to help in that way, perhaps as a forgotten tooth of a street dog.
“ Only the development of compassion and understanding for others can bring us the tranquility and happiness we all seek. ”
H H Dalai Lama

"Relax." nirvana-samsara do not stray from spaciousness.

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clyde
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Re: authorization

Post by clyde » Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:30 am

So, if the medicine is appropriate (the Dharma), the patient (student) receives the benefit regardless of who offers the medicine, yes?
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

muni
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Re: authorization

Post by muni » Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:58 am

I should not say it like that, Clyde.

Rather * Bodhichitta * or * Wisdom-Compassion is the very teacher *

Guiding Bodhichitta inviting in what is to know. And that is at least for delusions like me not knowing phenomena/things/ones. Example:

"Don’t investigate the root of things,
Investigate the root of Mind!...
Guru Rinpoche

Without the very longing for nature and so being open for it, the Incredible Goodness as Bodhichitta continues to help. But without student there is no master. Till that openness is, I guess.

However there are different kind of what is called teacher, these can inspire.
A saying goes so: some can only learn from themselves, wise even from the smallest child.

Still care is necessary when we put our trust in teacher, but not by a suspicious mind, just careful. There is a lot on internet about.

o o The skylike is our mutual bin... :smile: Have a nice day.
“ Only the development of compassion and understanding for others can bring us the tranquility and happiness we all seek. ”
H H Dalai Lama

"Relax." nirvana-samsara do not stray from spaciousness.

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Re: authorization

Post by Sādhaka » Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:44 am

Wicked Yeshe wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 6:24 am
Their daath is turned into the crown of Ialdabaoth who rushes them both downwards were their faces are crushed against the bottom of hell.
Were the gnostics tirthikas, or were they using symbolism like: Demiurge = one’s own ignorant mind; and the archons = the eight classes?
“...we should try to acquire clairvoyance. Without it, we are like a baby bird whose wings are undeveloped and has not yet grown feathers and remains stuck in its nest, unable to fly. Without clairvoyance, we cannot work for other sentient beings.” — Khunu Lama
“Just as a bird can not fly without both wings,
The welfare of others cannot be accomplished without the higher faculties of perception,
So diligently strive for your own wellbeing, whilst mentally considering the welfare of others.” — Longchenpa

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Lobsang Chojor
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Re: authorization

Post by Lobsang Chojor » Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:26 am

clyde wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:30 am
So, if the medicine is appropriate (the Dharma), the patient (student) receives the benefit regardless of who offers the medicine, yes?
No there are requirements for both a Mahayana and Vajrayana guru.

For the Mahayana teacher the requirements are as such
[url wrote:http://viewonbuddhism.org/spiritual_teacher_guru.html[/url]
1. They must first of all follow the precepts and vows of a bodhisattva.
2. They must have studied in depth the teachings of the path of the bodhisattva.
3. Their understanding must be deep and not purely intellectual; they must have truly experienced the teachings.
4. They must feel sincere compassion toward all sentient beings.
5. They must be fearless and show a lot of courage, not only in their own actions but also when they teach others.
6. They must be tolerant and patient with their students and practice.
7. They must be tenacious and not allow themselves to be carried away by discouragement or disappointment.
8. Finally, they must be capable of communicating effectively with students.
"Morality does not become pure unless darkness is dispelled by the light of wisdom"
  • Aryasura, Paramitasamasa 6.5
ༀ་ཨ་ར་པ་ཙ་ན་དྷཱི༔ Oṃ A Ra Pa Ca Na Dhīḥ

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Re: authorization

Post by Wicked Yeshe » Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:49 pm

Very good list.

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clyde
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Re: authorization

Post by clyde » Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:41 pm

Lobsang Chojor wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:26 am
No there are requirements for both a Mahayana and Vajrayana guru.

For the Mahayana teacher the requirements are as such
[url wrote:http://viewonbuddhism.org/spiritual_teacher_guru.html[/url]
1. They must first of all follow the precepts and vows of a bodhisattva.
2. They must have studied in depth the teachings of the path of the bodhisattva.
3. Their understanding must be deep and not purely intellectual; they must have truly experienced the teachings.
4. They must feel sincere compassion toward all sentient beings.
5. They must be fearless and show a lot of courage, not only in their own actions but also when they teach others.
6. They must be tolerant and patient with their students and practice.
7. They must be tenacious and not allow themselves to be carried away by discouragement or disappointment.
8. Finally, they must be capable of communicating effectively with students.
But this doesn’t answer the questions:

If someone teaches a practice without authorization (lacks the requirements), what happens?
What happens to the teacher? What happens to the student?
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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Aryjna
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Re: authorization

Post by Aryjna » Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:51 pm

clyde wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:41 pm
Lobsang Chojor wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:26 am
No there are requirements for both a Mahayana and Vajrayana guru.

For the Mahayana teacher the requirements are as such
[url wrote:http://viewonbuddhism.org/spiritual_teacher_guru.html[/url]
1. They must first of all follow the precepts and vows of a bodhisattva.
2. They must have studied in depth the teachings of the path of the bodhisattva.
3. Their understanding must be deep and not purely intellectual; they must have truly experienced the teachings.
4. They must feel sincere compassion toward all sentient beings.
5. They must be fearless and show a lot of courage, not only in their own actions but also when they teach others.
6. They must be tolerant and patient with their students and practice.
7. They must be tenacious and not allow themselves to be carried away by discouragement or disappointment.
8. Finally, they must be capable of communicating effectively with students.
But this doesn’t answer the questions:

If someone teaches a practice without authorization (lacks the requirements), what happens?
What happens to the teacher? What happens to the student?
The teacher is not a teacher in the first place if he lacks the requirements. As for the students, at best they are wasting their precious time.

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Lobsang Chojor
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Re: authorization

Post by Lobsang Chojor » Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:29 pm

clyde wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:41 pm
But this doesn’t answer the questions:

If someone teaches a practice without authorization (lacks the requirements), what happens?
What happens to the teacher? What happens to the student?
For the Mahayana you can't receive bodhisattva vows from them and you won't get a correct understanding of the topics because the teacher can't explain etc.

For the vajrayana it is a downfall for the guru and for the student they won't receive the empowerment or so on.
"Morality does not become pure unless darkness is dispelled by the light of wisdom"
  • Aryasura, Paramitasamasa 6.5
ༀ་ཨ་ར་པ་ཙ་ན་དྷཱི༔ Oṃ A Ra Pa Ca Na Dhīḥ

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Re: authorization

Post by anjali » Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:41 am

Per OP's request, topic has been moved to the Lounge.
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clyde
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Re: authorization

Post by clyde » Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:10 am

Aryjna wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:51 pm
The teacher is not a teacher in the first place if he lacks the requirements. As for the students, at best they are wasting their precious time.
While those requirements are proper, I don’t think that meeting those requirements is equivalent to authorization. Do you?
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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Re: authorization

Post by clyde » Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:27 am

Lobsang Chojor wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:29 pm
clyde wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:41 pm
If someone teaches a practice without authorization (lacks the requirements), what happens?
What happens to the teacher? What happens to the student?
For the Mahayana you can't receive bodhisattva vows from them and you won't get a correct understanding of the topics because the teacher can't explain etc.
A vow is a commitment one undertakes; a teacher can’t give it and a student can’t receive it. There’s benefit to having a teacher and taking vows in public, but it’s not an exchange.

And certainly there are teachers who meet all the listed requirements, but are not authorized. What of them?
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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Lobsang Chojor
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Re: authorization

Post by Lobsang Chojor » Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:53 pm

clyde wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:27 am
Lobsang Chojor wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:29 pm
For the Mahayana you can't receive bodhisattva vows from them and you won't get a correct understanding of the topics because the teacher can't explain etc.
A vow is a commitment one undertakes; a teacher can’t give it and a student can’t receive it. There’s benefit to having a teacher and taking vows in public, but it’s not an exchange.

And certainly there are teachers who meet all the listed requirements, but are not authorized. What of them?
Bodhisattva vows have to be received from someone who holds the vows.

Authorisation tends to follow on from correct training but if they have the training and are not authorised there's no benefit but I don't think there's a downfall, I just don't see why you'd study with them. The exception is tantra where without proper authorisation the teacher receive a downfall and the student doesn't receive anything so can't do the practice.
"Morality does not become pure unless darkness is dispelled by the light of wisdom"
  • Aryasura, Paramitasamasa 6.5
ༀ་ཨ་ར་པ་ཙ་ན་དྷཱི༔ Oṃ A Ra Pa Ca Na Dhīḥ

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Malcolm
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Re: authorization

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jun 02, 2018 1:08 pm

clyde wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:27 am

A vow is a commitment one undertakes; a teacher can’t give it and a student can’t receive it.
Depends on what one means by "vow." In Buddhadharma, pratimokṣa vows, bodhisattva vows, and Vajrayāna samaya are all received from a teacher.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: authorization

Post by Virgo » Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:17 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 1:08 pm
clyde wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:27 am

A vow is a commitment one undertakes; a teacher can’t give it and a student can’t receive it.
Depends on what one means by "vow." In Buddhadharma, pratimokṣa vows, bodhisattva vows, and Vajrayāna samaya are all received from a teacher.
Good post. :good:

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clyde
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Re: authorization

Post by clyde » Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:04 pm

I meant “vow” as “a solemn promise, pledge, or personal commitment”. (See: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/vow) What do you mean by “vow”?

My original questions about authorization wasn’t restricted to vows, but to all practices (e.g. - meditation practices, etc.). And as I reflect on this, I wonder about Dharma friends, even on forums, who assist (teach) others.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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Re: authorization

Post by mechashivaz » Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:10 pm

clyde wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:30 am
So, if the medicine is appropriate (the Dharma), the patient (student) receives the benefit regardless of who offers the medicine, yes?
The administration (upaya) is just as important as the medicine (Dharma). An unskillful administration of medicine could kill a person, or worse, turn them away from the Dharma.

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Re: authorization

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:56 am

clyde wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:04 pm
I meant “vow” as “a solemn promise, pledge, or personal commitment”. (See: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/vow) What do you mean by “vow”?

My original questions about authorization wasn’t restricted to vows, but to all practices (e.g. - meditation practices, etc.). And as I reflect on this, I wonder about Dharma friends, even on forums, who assist (teach) others.
In Buddhadharma, vows are solemn commitments, pledges, and promises made during ordination rites in the presence of a master, who acknowledges one’s promises and confers the desired level of vows.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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