authorization

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clyde
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Re: authorization

Post by clyde »

mechashivaz wrote: Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:10 pm
clyde wrote: Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:30 am So, if the medicine is appropriate (the Dharma), the patient (student) receives the benefit regardless of who offers the medicine, yes?
The administration (upaya) is just as important as the medicine (Dharma). An unskillful administration of medicine could kill a person, or worse, turn them away from the Dharma.
Yes, if the teacher is unskillful. But if the teacher is skillful and the practice is correctly explained and taught, how does it matter if the teacher is unauthorized?
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
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clyde
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Re: authorization

Post by clyde »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:56 am
clyde wrote: Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:04 pm I meant “vow” as “a solemn promise, pledge, or personal commitment”. (See: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/vow) What do you mean by “vow”?

My original questions about authorization wasn’t restricted to vows, but to all practices (e.g. - meditation practices, etc.). And as I reflect on this, I wonder about Dharma friends, even on forums, who assist (teach) others.
In Buddhadharma, vows are solemn commitments, pledges, and promises made during ordination rites in the presence of a master, who acknowledges one’s promises and confers the desired level of vows.
As I noted in an earlier post, I understand the value of making vows before a teacher and sangha, but what do you mean by “confers”? In what way does a teacher confer a vow upon a student?
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
Malcolm
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Re: authorization

Post by Malcolm »

clyde wrote: Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:16 am
Malcolm wrote: Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:56 am
clyde wrote: Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:04 pm I meant “vow” as “a solemn promise, pledge, or personal commitment”. (See: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/vow) What do you mean by “vow”?

My original questions about authorization wasn’t restricted to vows, but to all practices (e.g. - meditation practices, etc.). And as I reflect on this, I wonder about Dharma friends, even on forums, who assist (teach) others.
In Buddhadharma, vows are solemn commitments, pledges, and promises made during ordination rites in the presence of a master, who acknowledges one’s promises and confers the desired level of vows.
As I noted in an earlier post, I understand the value of making vows before a teacher and sangha, but what do you mean by “confers”? In what way does a teacher confer a vow upon a student?
For example, when going for refuge, the student repeats the formula of going for refuge three times after the teacher. The teacher then explains the vows and commitments of going for refuge, and in this way the student formally becomes a follower of Buddhadharma and also received lay vows.

Monastic vows, bodhisattva vows, and the vows of secret mantra are administered the same way.
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clyde
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Re: authorization

Post by clyde »

Malcolm; Thank you. Of course monastic vows are administered (not conferred) by a teacher. And I won’t discuss so-called “secret” mantras or practices.

Yes, the traditional way of taking refuge is before a teacher. But a sincere lay person who has studied the Dharma and undertaken the practice can take refuge with or without a teacher, authorized or not. Taking refuge is an act of commitment by the person, not the teacher.

Let’s say a sincere student takes refuge with a skillful teacher whom they believe to be authorized (whatever that may mean) and years later discovers that their teacher was not authorized. What of that student and their years of practice?
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
Bristollad
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Re: authorization

Post by Bristollad »

clyde wrote: Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:39 pm Malcolm; Thank you. Of course monastic vows are administered (not conferred) by a teacher. And I won’t discuss so-called “secret” mantras or practices.

Yes, the traditional way of taking refuge is before a teacher. But a sincere lay person who has studied the Dharma and undertaken the practice can take refuge with or without a teacher, authorized or not. Taking refuge is an act of commitment by the person, not the teacher.

Let’s say a sincere student takes refuge with a skillful teacher whom they believe to be authorized (whatever that may mean) and years later discovers that their teacher was not authorized. What of that student and their years of practice?
Not sure why you don't like the thought that vows are conferred. At the time of ordination, the candiate is given (conferred) various things to help them with their training - blessed robes are conferred, monastic vows are conferred, a new name and so on... all these are conferred.

Can someone put on robes, give themselves a new name and start following rules for living, on their own? Yes, but they wouldn't be part of the Sangha.
The antidote—to be free from the suffering of samsara—you need to be free from delusion and karma; you need to be free from ignorance, the root of samsara. So you need to meditate on emptiness. That is what you need. Lama Zopa Rinpoche
Malcolm
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Re: authorization

Post by Malcolm »

clyde wrote: Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:39 pm Malcolm; Thank you. Of course monastic vows are administered (not conferred) by a teacher. And I won’t discuss so-called “secret” mantras or practices.
I am using "administered" in the sense of "The doctor administered medicine to the patient."
Yes, the traditional way of taking refuge is before a teacher. But a sincere lay person who has studied the Dharma and undertaken the practice can take refuge with or without a teacher, authorized or not. Taking refuge is an act of commitment by the person, not the teacher.
This is certainly fine in the case of a lay person, but it will not work for monastic ordination, nor for secret mantra.
Let’s say a sincere student takes refuge with a skillful teacher whom they believe to be authorized (whatever that may mean) and years later discovers that their teacher was not authorized. What of that student and their years of practice?
Any lay person who has received refuge vows can confer them, since this mode of conferring refuge vows is one of the preliminaries of monastic ordination.
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Grigoris
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Re: authorization

Post by Grigoris »

I think it is pretty clear that our friend clyde (or somebody close to them) got duped by some scammer and spent a sizable quantity of time practicing something that was given to them by an unauthorised teacher. Now he is trying to see if he (or they) completely wasted their time or not.

Seems he is not getting the validation he wishes to receive. :smile:

Anyway... The practical importance of authorisation is that one receives it when one's teacher has observed them and found them capable.

Teaching practices is not just about being a skillful teacher, it also requires a degree of realisation regarding the practices.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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clyde
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Re: authorization

Post by clyde »

No, not me nor anyone I know has been duped by an unauthorized teacher; nor do I need validation. As my OP stated:
clyde wrote: Thu May 31, 2018 5:47 am Another thread about a teacher’s authorization gave rise to the following questions:

If someone teaches a practice without authorization, what happens?
What happens to the teacher? What happens to the student?
So, my questions were based on curiosity and intended to broaden my understanding, and certainly had nothing to do with monastic ordination.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
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