Have you tried Holotropic Breathwork?

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boda
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Re: Have you tried Holotropic Breathwork?

Post by boda » Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:17 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:13 am
boda wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:19 am
To be somewhat uncomfortably candid with you, the reason I’m currently interested in holotropic breathwork and other ‘hacks’ is rather specific: to deactivate the neural default mode network. This is the neural network associated with the sense of self. As a Buddhist, I assume it makes intuitive sense to you why I would pursue this goal, even if you regard the method foolish or useless.
Ummmm... no actually. It is one thing to realise the conditioned nature of our existence and how the relative self is a conglomeration of parts and another thing to induce dissociative psychosis.
Well aren’t you the optimist. :lol:

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Re: Have you tried Holotropic Breathwork?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:56 pm

boda wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:17 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:13 am
boda wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:19 am
To be somewhat uncomfortably candid with you, the reason I’m currently interested in holotropic breathwork and other ‘hacks’ is rather specific: to deactivate the neural default mode network. This is the neural network associated with the sense of self. As a Buddhist, I assume it makes intuitive sense to you why I would pursue this goal, even if you regard the method foolish or useless.
Ummmm... no actually. It is one thing to realise the conditioned nature of our existence and how the relative self is a conglomeration of parts and another thing to induce dissociative psychosis.
Well aren’t you the optimist. :lol:
He's right though, applied incorrectly practices can lead to de-realization episodes and even psychosis. This is mentioned in plenty of texts, and we have lots of modern examples too...most recently "Geshe" Michael Roche's students dying of suicide, and the same issue with a few people at Goenka retreats. Not saying everything is super dangerous, but if you go far enough without the right support system to pull you in when you are going wrong, it is possible to never come back.

Probably extreme examples for the purposes of this conversation of course, just illustrating the point.
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boda
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Re: Have you tried Holotropic Breathwork?

Post by boda » Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:56 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:56 pm
boda wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:17 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:13 am
Ummmm... no actually. It is one thing to realise the conditioned nature of our existence and how the relative self is a conglomeration of parts and another thing to induce dissociative psychosis.
Well aren’t you the optimist. :lol:
He's right though, applied incorrectly practices can lead to de-realization episodes and even psychosis. This is mentioned in plenty of texts, and we have lots of modern examples too...most recently "Geshe" Michael Roche's students dying of suicide, and the same issue with a few people at Goenka retreats. Not saying everything is super dangerous, but if you go far enough without the right support system to pull you in when you are going wrong, it is possible to never come back.

Probably extreme examples for the purposes of this conversation of course, just illustrating the point.
You can’t say that he’s right, and least without presenting any actual evidence or even a modest argument. Stories about what happened to a few people on retreats is not evidence.

Maybe you can dig up some studies or something that supports your claim? I won’t hold my breath.

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Re: Have you tried Holotropic Breathwork?

Post by Grigoris » Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:22 pm

boda wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:56 pm
You can’t say that he’s right, and least without presenting any actual evidence or even a modest argument. Stories about what happened to a few people on retreats is not evidence.

Maybe you can dig up some studies or something that supports your claim? I won’t hold my breath.
Dude... Nobody is holding you back. Knock yourself out!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Have you tried Holotropic Breathwork?

Post by boda » Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:50 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:22 pm
boda wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:56 pm
You can’t say that he’s right, and least without presenting any actual evidence or even a modest argument. Stories about what happened to a few people on retreats is not evidence.

Maybe you can dig up some studies or something that supports your claim? I won’t hold my breath.
Dude... Nobody is holding you back. Knock yourself out!
I’ll take this as an admission that you can’t support your claims.

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Re: Have you tried Holotropic Breathwork?

Post by Grigoris » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:11 pm

boda wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:50 pm
I’ll take this as an admission that you can’t support your claims.
You can take it any way that it any way you want. Basically it means I don't give enough of a crap about how you waste your time and energy; in order to attempt to dissuade you any further.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Have you tried Holotropic Breathwork?

Post by boda » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:30 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:11 pm
boda wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:50 pm
I’ll take this as an admission that you can’t support your claims.
You can take it any way that it any way you want. Basically it means I don't give enough of a crap about how you waste your time and energy in order to attempt to dissuade you any further.
You and JD made a dubious claim. I asked for supporting evidence or an argument of some kind. So far you’ve failed to do this.

This not the result that I want. It’s just what has occurred up to this point.

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Re: Have you tried Holotropic Breathwork?

Post by Grigoris » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:39 pm

boda wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:30 pm
You and JD made a dubious claim. I asked for supporting evidence or an argument of some kind. So far you’ve failed to do this.

This not the result that I want. It’s just what has occurred up to this point.


Dude, how long have you been bouncing around this forum? You think we don't know that no matter what we say you are just going to do your thing? So why bust our chops? :smile:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Have you tried Holotropic Breathwork?

Post by boda » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:47 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:39 pm
boda wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:30 pm
You and JD made a dubious claim. I asked for supporting evidence or an argument of some kind. So far you’ve failed to do this.

This not the result that I want. It’s just what has occurred up to this point.


Dude, how long have you been bouncing around this forum? You think we don't know that no matter what we say you are just going to do your thing? So why bust our chops? :smile:
:lol: I think that may be the laziest ad hom I’ve ever seen.

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Re: Have you tried Holotropic Breathwork?

Post by Grigoris » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:52 pm

boda wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:47 pm
:lol: I think that may be the laziest ad hom I’ve ever seen.
:smile: Well, at least it was in good humor!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Have you tried Holotropic Breathwork?

Post by dzogchungpa » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:57 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:56 pm
...most recently "Geshe" Michael Roche's students dying of suicide...

If you are thinking of the Ian Thorson thing, as far as I know he did not commit suicide. Just sayin'.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Have you tried Holotropic Breathwork?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:16 pm

boda wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:56 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:56 pm
boda wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:17 pm


Well aren’t you the optimist. :lol:
He's right though, applied incorrectly practices can lead to de-realization episodes and even psychosis. This is mentioned in plenty of texts, and we have lots of modern examples too...most recently "Geshe" Michael Roche's students dying of suicide, and the same issue with a few people at Goenka retreats. Not saying everything is super dangerous, but if you go far enough without the right support system to pull you in when you are going wrong, it is possible to never come back.

Probably extreme examples for the purposes of this conversation of course, just illustrating the point.
You can’t say that he’s right, and least without presenting any actual evidence or even a modest argument. Stories about what happened to a few people on retreats is not evidence.

Maybe you can dig up some studies or something that supports your claim? I won’t hold my breath.


Do you think someone is going to commission a study on the anomalous suicide here and there due allegedly to meditation? Documented first hand accounts exists, but despite what some people think, a study does not exist for every malady or situation out there. In fact, If you want too look up recent examples just look up the recent deaths at (poorly supervised) Goenka retreats.


There are articles and studies out there which should probably mean very little to the people actively involved in Buddhist meditation, because we can just look to our traditions and scriptures and commentary to be warned about things that can happen due to meditation. You know, if we actually listen and don't act like we know more than thousands of years worth of mediators. however, if you're interested just Google "Suicide and meditation" and similar and you will get a number of articles.


Seriously though, I don't want to continue the conversation with your crappy attitude, as you usual, you aren't even interested in good faith conversation.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

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Re: Have you tried Holotropic Breathwork?

Post by boda » Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:55 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:16 pm
boda wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:56 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:56 pm


He's right though, applied incorrectly practices can lead to de-realization episodes and even psychosis. This is mentioned in plenty of texts, and we have lots of modern examples too...most recently "Geshe" Michael Roche's students dying of suicide, and the same issue with a few people at Goenka retreats. Not saying everything is super dangerous, but if you go far enough without the right support system to pull you in when you are going wrong, it is possible to never come back.

Probably extreme examples for the purposes of this conversation of course, just illustrating the point.
You can’t say that he’s right, and least without presenting any actual evidence or even a modest argument. Stories about what happened to a few people on retreats is not evidence.

Maybe you can dig up some studies or something that supports your claim? I won’t hold my breath.


Do you think someone is going to commission a study on the anomalous suicide here and there due allegedly to meditation? Documented first hand accounts exists, but despite what some people think, a study does not exist for every malady or situation out there. In fact, If you want too look up recent examples just look up the recent deaths at (poorly supervised) Goenka retreats.


There are articles and studies out there which should probably mean very little to the people actively involved in Buddhist meditation, because we can just look to our traditions and scriptures and commentary to be warned about things that can happen due to meditation. You know, if we actually listen and don't act like we know more than thousands of years worth of mediators. however, if you're interested just Google "Suicide and meditation" and similar and you will get a number of articles.
I seriously doubt there are Buddhist scriptural references to “dissociative psychosis.” In any case, if it’s so difficult to look up then it must not be much of an issue, we might assume.

“Documented first hand accounts exists” doesn’t mean anything. Who did the accounting? Are they professional and reliable? And how do you know what their findings were if you don’t even know where to look for these account? Maybe you, or others, are making false conclusions.
Seriously though, I don't want to continue the conversation with your crappy attitude, as you usual, you aren't even interested in good faith conversation.
You realize this is an ad hominem attack, right? and while speaking of good faith no less.

And I agree that you should not continue trying to support any claims you’ve made in this topic.

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Re: Have you tried Holotropic Breathwork?

Post by Anders » Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:48 am

From where I am sitting, Boda is asking reasonable questions and is getting nothing but ad hominem in return.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

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Re: Have you tried Holotropic Breathwork?

Post by Grigoris » Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:20 am

Anders wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:48 am
From where I am sitting, Boda is asking reasonable questions and is getting nothing but ad hominem in return.
Just to be clear: I was not engaging in ad hom, I was making a joke.

You are right, the questions are logical. But realistically, if boda wishes to engage in holotropic breathwork practices, then wouldn't it be best for them to research the techniques themselves instead of engaging in arguments with us when we provide anecdotal evidence?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Have you tried Holotropic Breathwork?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:15 pm

Anders wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:48 am
From where I am sitting, Boda is asking reasonable questions and is getting nothing but ad hominem in return.

I don't think we've been following the same conversation then.

To be clear, I am not saying that someone will unquestionably come to to harm from practicing these sort of faddish modern breathwork techniques, a more likely thing is to get no result at all, in my opinion. On the more general subject though, people indeed do occasionally come to harm from practicing such things without appropriate support systems.

Especially now that I've worked in a clinical environment I have a pet peeve of people constantly asking for studies, as if everything has a study attached to it. There are less valid studies out there on a thing like this than people think, and in some cases you are forced to use your reasoning, anecdotal and piecemeal evidence to form a conclusion.

So to sum up: Go for it, practice Holotropic Breathwork(R), to me it looks like any number of faddish modern techniques putting a "modern" veneer on a spiritual practice. Maybe you will get something amazing out of it and I am dead wrong. Personally, if I wanted to learn energetic breathwork i'd hit up a Yogi or Yogini of any number of traditions.
“Documented first hand accounts exists” doesn’t mean anything. Who did the accounting? Are they professional and reliable? And how do you know what their findings were if you don’t even know where to look for these account? Maybe you, or others, are making false conclusions.
Do you know how "truths" are actually discovered/informed in clinical and professional settings, with things like this?

Lots of subjects like this don't have studies or organized collections of hard data available. If you are lucky enough to research a subject that does have studies, meta studies, and hard data, then you are well set. If that stuff does not exist, you are forced to draw conclusions using what evidence you do have, and inference. So in these cases "supporting a claim" does not have to do with presenting organized empirical evidence, because often it has never been compiled.
You realize this is an ad hominem attack, right? and while speaking of good faith no less.

And I agree that you should not continue trying to support any claims you’ve made in this topic.
I should have worded it differently, but it's me complaining about your behavior in the thread, not you as a person. I was overly rude and apologize for that.

Anyway, i'm gonna shutter the thread if we can't back on track, so let's take it in this direction:

Yes, I've done techniques similar to this, in terms of meditation, they are useful to create certain states and experiences, but are not particularly useful on their own, outside some sort of meditation program that includes for a specific purpose.
I seriously doubt there are Buddhist scriptural references to “dissociative psychosis.”
There are accounts of people having something akin to psychotic breaks etc. upon being prematurely exposed to teachings, meditation systems that warn of both positive and negative experiences and breaks with reality which can arise along the path, etc. Again, if you're constantly looking for modern, clinically based studies, you are not going to come up with much, but that goes for plenty of other subjects too. So in this case, you have to use your noggin and not rely on the creators of studies and meta studies to draw conclusions.
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dzogchungpa
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Re: Have you tried Holotropic Breathwork?

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:11 pm

boda wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:19 am
To be somewhat uncomfortably candid with you, the reason I’m currently interested in holotropic breathwork and other ‘hacks’ is rather specific: to deactivate the neural default mode network. This is the neural network associated with the sense of self. As a Buddhist, I assume it makes intuitive sense to you why I would pursue this goal, even if you regard the method foolish or useless.

My understanding is that Grof developed Holotropic Breathwork because LSD and other psychedelics were banned. It might be a lot easier and more effective to try LSD or something similar, see e.g.: https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... f-network/
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Have you tried Holotropic Breathwork?

Post by boda » Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:27 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:15 pm
Lots of subjects like this don't have studies or organized collections of hard data available. If you are lucky enough to research a subject that does have studies, meta studies, and hard data, then you are well set. If that stuff does not exist, you are forced to draw conclusions using what evidence you do have, and inference. So in these cases "supporting a claim" does not have to do with presenting organized empirical evidence, because often it has never been compiled.
If I recall correctly, our conflict started with my saying "you can't know...", or something like that, meaning that if no research has been done you can't make a, I'll say reasonable, conclusion. We may be just going along with whatever the prevailing narrative is, in this case.
Yes, I've done techniques similar to this, in terms of meditation, they are useful to create certain states and experiences, but are not particularly useful on their own, outside some sort of meditation program that includes for a specific purpose.
I understand if you don't want to go into details, but I'm curious about what the specific purpose was of these similar techniques that you used. What was the purpose of creating those specific states and experiences?

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Re: Have you tried Holotropic Breathwork?

Post by boda » Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:44 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:11 pm
boda wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:19 am
To be somewhat uncomfortably candid with you, the reason I’m currently interested in holotropic breathwork and other ‘hacks’ is rather specific: to deactivate the neural default mode network. This is the neural network associated with the sense of self. As a Buddhist, I assume it makes intuitive sense to you why I would pursue this goal, even if you regard the method foolish or useless.
My understanding is that Grof developed Holotropic Breathwork because LSD and other psychedelics were banned. It might be a lot easier and more effective to try LSD or something similar, see e.g.: https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... f-network/
I'm not really interested in something easy, though the experience would be cool. If the opportunity presented itself I'd probably try it.

Hopefully I'll get there on my own via meditation etc. I still haven't done any long retreats. I'm gearing up for it though.

I learned about holotropic breathwork in a new book called How to Change Your Mind (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/book ... 594204227/), btw. Great book, it's well written and is full of fascinating information about psychedelics.

“Pollan’s deeply researched chronicle will enlighten those who think of psychedelics chiefly as a kind of punchline to a joke about the Woodstock generation and hearten the growing number who view them as a potential antidote to our often stubbornly narrow minds….engaging and informative.”
— Boston Globe

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Re: Have you tried Holotropic Breathwork?

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:02 pm

boda wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:44 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:11 pm
My understanding is that Grof developed Holotropic Breathwork because LSD and other psychedelics were banned. It might be a lot easier and more effective to try LSD or something similar, see e.g.: https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... f-network/
I'm not really interested in something easy, though the experience would be cool. If the opportunity presented itself I'd probably try it.

Hopefully I'll get there on my own via meditation etc. I still haven't done any long retreats. I'm gearing up for it though.

Do you have a problem with something being easy?


boda wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:44 pm
I learned about holotropic breathwork in a new book called How to Change Your Mind (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/book ... 594204227/), btw. Great book, it's well written and is full of fascinating information about psychedelics.

“Pollan’s deeply researched chronicle will enlighten those who think of psychedelics chiefly as a kind of punchline to a joke about the Woodstock generation and hearten the growing number who view them as a potential antidote to our often stubbornly narrow minds….engaging and informative.”
— Boston Globe

Dude lives in my town. :thumbsup:
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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