TRUCK FUMP

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Minobu
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Re: TRUCK FUMP

Post by Minobu » Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:59 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:46 am
Minobu wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:33 am


If you think russia's online fake news had no effect...well....thats your choice...the experiment was tried and proven...
Really, where was it "proven"? And I didn't say it had no effect, I just think the effect is pretty marginal in comparison to things like HRC being a terrible candidate, the DNC leadership being careerist corporate sell outs and making exactly the wrong moves at the wrong times.

If you have some evidence that this stuff was somehow orchestrated by Russia, go ahead and present it. Otherwise, I have to conclude that those who claim Russia had some substantial role in the election are off the mark.
Obama was the first to win through online campaigning... He did not resort to fakery....but hey the internet proves fakery is believable...So the genie is out of the bottle ...as for the masses ... "Let them eat Fake".
Lots of mainstream news is "fake" too, it's just by omission usually. Just witness the reaction in this thread about the US supporting the Saudis bombing Yemen, something that is really easy to find out, but simply isn't much discussed in mainstream news.

Again, if you have some substantial evidence that made stories like Pizzagate etc. somehow swung the election, let me know. personally, as disgusting as I find that kind of thing, I don't think it was a major factor.
So like you think the whole russian meddling on a massive scale is like some conspiracy theory...oki doke.

Like i said

We all see trump defending russia over and over ignoring the Crimea thing and Ukrainian revolts funded by russia.
I cannot give you evidence on this...but i guess it just some coincidence for you as well...

how does that lame movie line go"The biggest trick of the devil is that people don't think he exists"

i know i know resorting to a cartoon to make a point....but think about it and what exactly you for some reason need to ignore and defend...from where i sit any way...

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Re: TRUCK FUMP

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:15 am

Minobu wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:59 am


So like you think the whole Russian meddling on a massive scale is like some conspiracy theory...oki doke.
Excuse me, pony up the reams of evidence you supposedly have of widespread Russian meddling swinging the election, or stop talking about it as if you have evidence of it.

i know i know resorting to a cartoon to make a point....but think about it and what exactly you for some reason need to ignore and defend...from where i sit any way...
Don't talk to me that way, either defend your claims of large scale Russian meddling actually affecting election results or don't.
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Re: TRUCK FUMP

Post by Dan74 » Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:07 am

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/pol ... -election/

https://theintercept.com/2017/06/05/top ... -election/

https://theintercept.com/2017/04/11/sen ... ne-system/

I think it is myopic to see this issue as the old hysteria about the Commies or something insignificant. Yes, Russia is relatively weak, its economy is about the size of Spain and its military might is likely way behind the US. However, given the parlous state of Western democracy, these further efforts to undermine it are extremely significant. All indications point to an operation unlike any previously seen in scope and effectiveness.


Europe in places like Hungary and Poland, is going away from the liberal democratic model. Germany is entering a very dangerous time. With Trump in the White House, the ideological battles, though not yet the geopolitical ones, are swinging increasingly Putin's way.

Yes, the US democratic process is already full of spin and outright deception but there is still a great deal more that can be lost. Fighting the battle on the domestic front does not preclude a recognition of this dangerous interference. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

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Re: TRUCK FUMP

Post by Minobu » Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:37 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:15 am


Don't talk to me that way,
America loves a dictator and dictatorships it seems...

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... t-fox-news
“He’s the head of a country, and I mean, he’s the strong head, don’t let anyone think anything different,” Trump said during an interview on Fox & Friends. “He speaks and his people sit up at attention. I want my people to do the same.”

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:15 am

Excuse me, pony up the reams of evidence you supposedly have of widespread Russian meddling swinging the election, or stop talking about it as if you have evidence of it.
here are some articles on the russian meddling ...
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/18/us/p ... itter.html
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... op-prevent

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43092085

i dunno it just keeps going page after page

https://www.engadget.com/2018/03/15/us- ... -meddling/


as for america's love of dictatorships..


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Re: TRUCK FUMP

Post by Jesse » Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:28 pm

Something not as much talked about in the "Russian Meddling" in our elections, is how they did it. The end result is much scarier than swaying an election.

The real story is the use of advanced artificial intelligence to commit state-sponsored information warfare, and if you think Russia are the only ones doing it... yea nope.

The USA and China are probably the biggest culprits, as well as Russia. The worst part is that they use it on their own citizens as well, before it was easy to manipulate a few news stations, now they need to manipulate the whole of the internet. To do something like that, you need a massive amount of intelligent horsepower, the only thing really capable of doing it is AI. Sure humans could technically do it, but it would take literally an army of humans, but AI doesn't spill secrets, it's infinitely faster, more cohesive, and some of the things it's capable of, are pretty scary.



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Re: TRUCK FUMP

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:15 pm

Minobu wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:37 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:15 am


Don't talk to me that way,
America loves a dictator and dictatorships it seems...

If you can't answer the actual questions I posed, then we are done...it appears you can't. I asked if you had any evidence that Russian online farting around swung the election, none of these articles address that. Some of them aren't even about Russian election meddling at all.
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Re: TRUCK FUMP

Post by Mantrik » Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:02 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:15 pm
Minobu wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:37 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:15 am


Don't talk to me that way,
America loves a dictator and dictatorships it seems...

If you can't answer the actual questions I posed, then we are done...it appears you can't. I asked if you had any evidence that Russian online farting around swung the election, none of these articles address that. Some of them aren't even about Russian election meddling at all.
Across the Pond we have quite a few articles stating that there was indeed Russian trolling intended to interfere with the Brexit vote.
But you hit the nail on the head by asking for evidence that it 'swung the election'. Although that is incredibly hard to prove, since voters would all need to be asked if specific posts, tweets, reposts, retweets etc had influenced them, the volume from those sources identified as Russian trolls was such a tiny proportion of the total in relation to Brexit that it is logical to assume very few people even saw them, let alone be influenced by them. For example, from the Times:
''The accounts connected to the Internet Research Agency in St Petersburg represented below 0.005 per cent of the total users tweeting about the referendum, according to Nick Pickles, the company’s UK head of public policy.''
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Re: TRUCK FUMP

Post by Rick » Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:25 pm

Comey swung our election imo with his breathtakingly idiotic* release of damning(-sounding) anti-Clinton info just a few days before the election. He tried to do penance with his nasty book and recent public anti-Trump interviews, but I think The Apocalypso is largely on him. Stupid stupid mistake, born of arrogance and "I'm the smartest and most ethical person in the room" nonsense. Pah: I bite my thumb at you, blaggard!

Of course it could be that Trump would have won either way, Comey letter or not ... though I doubt it. Pundits for both opinions abound.

* Unless his plan was to hurt Clinton's chances.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Re: TRUCK FUMP

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:31 pm

Rick wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:25 pm
Comey swung our election imo with his breathtakingly idiotic* release of damning(-sounding) anti-Clinton info just a few days before the election. He tried to do penance with his nasty book and recent public anti-Trump interviews, but I think The Apocalypso is largely on him. Stupid stupid mistake, born of arrogance and "I'm the smartest and most ethical person in the room" nonsense. Pah: I bite my thumb at you, blaggard!

Of course it could be that Trump would have won either way, Comey letter or not ... though I doubt it. Pundits for both opinions abound.

* Unless his plan was to hurt Clinton's chances.
How much do you blame Clinton for Clinton's loss? What percentage of blame? Do you think that the present day Democratic party deserves more support than it gets, or is it partially responsible for it's failing fortunes with the electorate?

I don't believe that the Trump presidency is some kind of aberration out of nowhere, rather I think it's something that was coming from a long time, and is indicative of a deeper problem in our politics. Namely, he is able to speak to people that Clinton decided were "deplorable" and not worthy of her (or the DNC's) time - the "deplorable" moment was what made me really start getting worried. Until conditions like these are addressed, Trump will continue to be...'successful', though it's hard to use the term accurately.

He can be the complete buffoon he is, but when he is the only one taking advantage of this particular populist moment, the result is predictable.
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Re: TRUCK FUMP

Post by Rick » Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:46 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:31 pm
How much do you blame Clinton for Clinton's loss? What percentage of blame? Do you think that the present day Democratic party deserves more support than it gets, or is it partially responsible for it's failing fortunes with the electorate?
I think Clinton is a flawed person/politician and ran (or let her advisors run) a flawed campaign. I'd say at least 50% of the 2016 election debacle was a result of her (advisors') decisions. But I also think that, of the two flawed candidates, Clinton was/is WAY less dangerously flawed than Trump. No contest. I also think Clinton is a very intelligent woman, and her politics/principles are quite compatible with mine.
I don't believe that the Trump presidency is some kind of aberration out of nowhere, rather I think it's something that was coming from a long time, and is indicative of a deeper problem in our politics. Namely, he is able to speak to people that Clinton decided were "deplorable" and not worthy of her (or the DNC's) time - the "deplorable" moment was what made me really start getting worried. Until conditions like these are addressed, Trump will continue to be...'successful', though it's hard to use the term accurately.
Trump can connect to the "deplorables" because he has a certain type of charisma/charm and absolutely no problem doing whatever it takes to get whatever he wants (power and $, I'd say): lying, inciting violence, hurting innocents, not being accountable, instilling fear in those around him, etc. Do other politicians do these things? Yeah, sure, some, perhaps most ... it seems to be built into the game of holding a political office. But Trump does them with to a degree and with a joie de cruelty that I've never seen before in a president.

I totally agree with you that the current situation has been a long time in the making. America is not a very aware country, the line between our tv/movie/media-driven life (fiction) and real life (fact) is very blurry indeed. Truth told, it's kind of fascinating to me to watch the country I grew up in dip into authoritarianism, even perhaps fascism. And to have nearly half the country support it!

I don't know what "the fix" for this is. Trump is hopeless, he won't change for the better. The Republican party appears to be just as hopeless, actually even moreso ... Trump is a reality-tv/sleazy-real-estate clown, the Republicans know better. And, alas, the Democratic party is a splintered and dysfunctional mess. If the economy stays strong, if N. Korea yields fruit, and if Mueller doesn't conclude that Trump is a crook who should be sent to the hoosegow ... I fear that the 2018 elections aren't going to change the Dem/Rep balance in Congress all that much.

Do you see a fix for our present predicament, JD?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Re: TRUCK FUMP

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:13 am

The first thing for me s that neither Clinton, nor Obama, nor Trump, nor Bush, etc. plays for the same "team" that most of us do, and pretending that they do is a kind of insanity, from my perspective. We live in an oligarchy with an ever widening gap between haves and have-nots (and thus access to the power to change or effect anything) and the sooner people realize that the "sides" we are presented with are just part of a narrative specifically meant to inhibit actual change, the better. That isn't to make an equivalency, most of the time on the local level I vote Democrat, but honestly, we have to be clear about who the Democrats are these days. Jeff Bezos is a liberal, we have "liberal" politicians courting people like him and asking him to come wreck their local economy, drive up rent costs, and receive tax breaks for doing so.

The idea that Clinton's personal politics would be compatible with an average person is to me an odd proposition, I doubt her personal beliefs or politics, such as they are match up with people who do not share her access to wealth and power, even if they might coincide in one or two places. As a bit of "evidence" for this, witness some of the very subjects in this thread, the real critique of Trump comes from people like Bernie, closer aligned to social democrats, who at least in America are on the outside of the political process for the most part. Most of the mainstream Democratic "spokespeople" and their media arm seem incapable of actually critiquing Trump in any way other than pointing out he is a frightening break with the status quo and pointing out the low hanging fruit of of his personal ethics. Apparently these geniuses aren't getting the message lots of people are sick of the status quo, and indeed, this is what makes Trump powerful and dangerous.

There's no way out of the predicament, it's been building for a long time, the architects of the status quo seem powerless to do anything about it. Personally I don't want to side with them anyway, because I think they are partially responsible fro Trump's victory. In the short term, i'd be happy if the present situation lit a fire under people on the Left to hold their leaders more accountable and demand something beyond more free trade and lip service to gay rights from their politicians. Maybe it could even procoke a new political conversation on the left itself about what things are most worthy of putting energy into, because right now I think we have it backwards. Really though, these days I am more interested in actually trying to help people directly affected by our many crises, I think this is going to be long term change, whatever the end result.
Trump can connect to the "deplorables" because he has a certain type of charisma/charm and absolutely no problem doing whatever it takes to get whatever he wants
It was also because he was one of two people for almost he entire campaign opposing or critiquing 'free trade' (the other being Bernie), talking about rebuilding infrastructure, and bringing back jobs. Of course, his version of these things is selling off what remains of civil society to the highest bidder, but we are talking about how he talks, not what he does. As far as how he talks, he had Clinton beat from the beginning. The constant narrative from the Democratic camp that Trump would be a "dangerous disruption" to the status quo only worked in his favor, and yet still people do not get it. So all they could muster was stuff like "America is already great" (there's that status quo again), and the "deplorables" comment. All Trump has to do is throw out some crappy promises he has no intention of keeping, taking a cue from the populists of the past. It is pathetic that the "party of the people" was beaten to the punch by this carnival barker scooby do villian on bread and butter economic issues. Was there an undercurrent of racism and xenophobia in Trump's presentation? Oh of course, but this does not change the fact that we was was actually talking class, albeit in an insane and obfuscatory way.
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Re: TRUCK FUMP

Post by Dan74 » Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:08 am

Why does it always seem to be an either-or scenario? Either the hopeless Dems who lost the election through rigging the primaries and offering a very flawed candidate or the Russian meddling did it? It is almost certainly both. I don't get why you argue so vehemently against the latter, JD, have you done much research, even read the wiki page?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_i ... _elections

The point is that in the long term Russia benefits from weaker America - they are building new alliances in the face of this uncertainty and increasing their influence. While the US is sunk in incessant inquiries, investigations, increasing voter apathy and a fractured society. The Russians by comparisons are quite united behind Putin. His nationalist propaganda is waaay better than anything they'd seen in the last 50 years and they'd swallowed it line hook and sinker. Whereas your country is hopelessly divided and nearly at war with itself. In fact, it is the oligarchy that keeps it together, because their interests are largely shared and constant. Just imagine for a sec that your typical Hillary supporter, Bernie Bro and a bunch of MAGAs are in Washington, making decisions. People don't listen to each other, they just shout from the bully pulpits. If the power were truly delegated to the people, you'd see a civil war in the short term, I'd guess. While the voters are distracted by the political charade, the rich go on with their business. You never know, it may well be for the best. It's certainly what Hillaries of this world believe and I can't say for certain that she is wrong, as much as it is a very unjust and imperfect system.

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Re: TRUCK FUMP

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:20 am

Dan74 wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:08 am
Why does it always seem to be an either-or scenario? Either the hopeless Dems who lost the election through rigging the primaries and offering a very flawed candidate or the Russian meddling did it? It is almost certainly both. I don't get why you argue so vehemently against the latter, JD, have you done much research, even read the wiki page?
I've read a number of articles on it, and most seem to be smoke and mirrors. I'm "against" it because it's a dumb distraction, during a time where actual work needs to be done, if one is going to be political. Please don't assume I haven't read anything on it, you're mistaken, as you usually are when you make your semi-regular assumptions about me virtually any time we disagree.

I also never stated nor remotely implied that interference didn't happen, rather I stated that I don't think it was a big factor in HRC losing the election.


The point is that in the long term Russia benefits from weaker America - they are building new alliances in the face of this uncertainty and increasing their influence. While the US is sunk in incessant inquiries, investigations, increasing voter apathy and a fractured society. The Russians by comparisons are quite united behind Putin. His nationalist propaganda is waaay better than anything they'd seen in the last 50 years and they'd swallowed it line hook and sinker. Whereas your country is hopelessly divided and nearly at war with itself. In fact, it is the oligarchy that keeps it together, because their interests are largely shared and constant. Just imagine for a sec that your typical Hillary supporter, Bernie Bro and a bunch of MAGAs are in Washington, making decisions. People don't listen to each other, they just shout from the bully pulpits. If the power were truly delegated to the people, you'd see a civil war in the short term, I'd guess. While the voters are distracted by the political charade, the rich go on with their business. You never know, it may well be for the best. It's certainly what Hillaries of this world believe and I can't say for certain that she is wrong, as much as it is a very unjust and imperfect system.
Well, your desire to tell me what exactly ails my country, as well as to let me know that the financial elites have my best interests at heart is really touching.

Wait, no it's not, in fact your entire post is dismissive, and largely pointless, choosing to focus on the notion hat I must just be ignorant because I disagree on the importance of Russia, rather than actually addressing a single thing I wrote.
ust imagine for a sec that your typical Hillary supporter, Bernie Bro and a bunch of MAGAs are in Washington, making decisions.
What an insulting and untrue caricature this is.
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Re: TRUCK FUMP

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:33 am

Dan74 wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:08 am
Just imagine for a sec that your typical Hillary supporter, Bernie Bro and a bunch of MAGAs are in Washington, making decisions.
*Clutches at pearls*

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Re: TRUCK FUMP

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:58 am

Dan74 wrote: Just imagine for a sec that your typical Hillary supporter, Bernie Bro and a bunch of MAGAs are in Washington, making decisions.
I would hardly call this genuine engagement.
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Re: TRUCK FUMP

Post by Dan74 » Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:08 am

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:58 am
Dan74 wrote: Just imagine for a sec that your typical Hillary supporter, Bernie Bro and a bunch of MAGAs are in Washington, making decisions.
I would hardly call this genuine engagement.
How do you mean, Greg?

I guess I am drawing on a fairly biased sample. In 2016-17 I did participate on various political FB pages and fora. By and large, people either engage in a nice echochamber or shout at each other. Australia is not too different in my experience, while Switzerland is. DW is heaven in comparison but still there's very little interest in real sharing, learning from each other and working things out.

The point I made was somewhat provocative, I admit. I do passionately believe in democracy. My beef is that democracy comes with a great deal of responsibility, including a fundamental good will for one's country and fellow citizens, readiness to inform oneself properly and engage in civic discourse, among others. I see less and less of it in action. This is of course apart from the systemic subversion of it by the elites.

From a personal perspective the 'fights' I've had here have been especially saddening since they are mostly with people who largely share similar values and ideals and it makes me wonder what hope is there for the solidarity sorely needed to change things. Egos, as usual, get in the way, mine included. Time to take a break and reflect a bit.

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Re: TRUCK FUMP

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:19 am

Dan74 wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:08 am
I do passionately believe in democracy...
And yet you believe that democracy is about a single powerful leader with all those surrounding him (yes, him) towing the line, instead of the statement, discussion and concurrence of dissenting views into a single unified position.

Strange view of democracy you have there, kind of borders on authoritarianism, wouldn't you say (on further analysis)?

You are right though, democracy is based on a whole set of conditions, but if you do not nurture those conditions, if you actively stamp them out...
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Re: TRUCK FUMP

Post by Rick » Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:31 pm

JD wrote:The first thing for me s that neither Clinton, nor Obama, nor Trump, nor Bush, etc. plays for the same "team" that most of us do ...
Let's say I play for Team Universal Fair and Compassionate Treatment of *ALL* Human Beings. Now compare Hillary, Barack, Donald, and GW. While none of them might be a member of Team Universal, there is a vast difference in their match/mismatch to Universal's values on climate, healthcare, immigration, global alliances, abortion, etc. Hillary ain't perfect fer sure, but her values, and the policies that would have arisen from them, are crystal clearly a better match to mine than Donald's.
JD wrote:The idea that Clinton's personal politics would be compatible with an average person is to me an odd proposition, I doubt her personal beliefs or politics, such as they are match up with people who do not share her access to wealth and power, even if they might coincide in one or two places.
I don't know who this "average person" is. Everyone I know, except for less than a handful, would have preferred Clinton to Trump massively ... even though they are all critical of Hillary. And the main reason is that her espoused values are way closer to theirs than Donald's (lack of) values. And I wouldn't say that we are a non-average bunch.
JD wrote:Most of the mainstream Democratic "spokespeople" and their media arm seem incapable of actually critiquing Trump in any way other than pointing out he is a frightening break with the status quo and pointing out the low hanging fruit of of his personal ethics.
I listen regularly to the two comedy channels, CNN and MSNBC. And, yes, there's some lurid "Trump is Evil!" junior-high school level nastiness that goes on. But some of the hosts actually do discuss issues intelligently. (My fave is Fareed Zakaria.) As for Democrats themselves, I agree that they haven't (yet) found a way to communicate to Trump supporters the long-term harmful consequences of Trump's policies for them, their children, other families, the planet. To be honest, I don't have much of a clue what motivates Trump supporters beyond the fear of the decline of the hegemony of white-male-America and the joy of giving the status quo (to use your term) the finger.
JD wrote:There's no way out of the predicament,
I think I might agree, there's a way through it, not out of it.
JD wrote:In the short term, i'd be happy if the present situation lit a fire under people on the Left to hold their leaders more accountable and demand something beyond more free trade and lip service to gay rights from their politicians.
Agreed.
JD wrote:Really though, these days I am more interested in actually trying to help people directly affected by our many crises, I think this is going to be long term change, whatever the end result.
A good and Buddhist-compatible decision, I'd say. I've been on the cusp of volunteering to help out local immigrants ... but my aversion to worldly activities has, till now, won out. (And yet here I sit complaining about the current State of the (Dis)Union!)
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Re: TRUCK FUMP

Post by Ayu » Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:48 pm

What about this?

https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/06/18/wha ... -us-border
(Human Rights Watch about what is happening to immegrant's children right now in the South of USA.)

How is it possible that these inhuman practices take place and nobody talks about it? :?: :thinking: :?: Tell the trump-regime to stop now.
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Re: TRUCK FUMP

Post by Karma Dorje » Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:07 pm

Manchurian. Effing. Candidate.
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava

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