Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

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Grigoris
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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Grigoris »

Simon E. wrote: Sat Jun 30, 2018 7:32 pmHe argued that attempting to legislate for toleration...
We are not talking about legislating for tolerance, we are talking about legislating against intolerance.

"I ain't going to serve you because you are a nigger/poofter/commie/etc..." should not be accepted.

"I am not going to serve you a pork pie, because I do not sell pork." is a completely different issue.

By the same retarded token one would call a vegetarian/vegan restaurant intolerant and discriminatory, because it does not serve meat.

Let's get real here for a second.
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Grigoris »

A brief musical interlude while people land their spacecrafts back on planet Earth...

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Mantrik »

Grigoris wrote: Sat Jun 30, 2018 7:40 pm
Simon E. wrote: Sat Jun 30, 2018 7:32 pmHe argued that attempting to legislate for toleration...
We are not talking about legislating for tolerance, we are talking about legislating against intolerance.

"I ain't going to serve you because you are a nigger/poofter/commie/etc..." should not be accepted.

"I am not going to serve you a pork pie, because I do not sell pork." is a completely different issue.

By the same retarded token one would call a vegetarian/vegan restaurant intolerant and discriminatory, because it does not serve meat.

Let's get real here for a second.
Again, misrepresentation.

In the case of the cake I am referring to, it was a pro-gay slogan which the baker refused to supply, not a cake. He did not sell cakes with gay slogans.
In the hypothetical case of the Moslem butcher, it was a specific meat he refused to suppy, not a pie. He did not sell pies with that meat.
Same thing, driven by deep religious conviction.

IN the UK the baker was told they must supply what they did not want to. My point was that a Moslem butcher would be treated differently, however deep the convictions of either shopkeeper.
You seem to want to judge the Moslem as invariably more deeply committed than the Christian, which is itself a dodgy assumption and offensive to many I suspect.

In the case in the US (Colorado?) the baker was allowed not to sell a cake to gays at all. Therefore Malcolm is incorrect. He may wish businesses do not have the right to refuse to serve people, but it seems the court in that case felt the opposite so the law does allow this.

The vegetarian example is spurious as discrimination law does not include diet. However, as I pointed out, in the UK the meathead could claim to be offended and end up with the poor bloody shop owner in court on those grounds.

If we are into the 'get real' scenario, I think in the West very very few people in these gender or sexual preference groups experience the level of discrimination common due to race or colour. And my part of the discussion was mainly about the trivia of pandering to the ever-increasing number of tiny self-righteous minorities whose entitlement mentality is skewing the allocation of the very slim resource available to people in great need.

Academic, largely, as the bottom of the list is unlikely to ever be reached.
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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

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Businesses are not autonomous. They depend on a currency administered by the government. They depend on roads and rail infrastructure to receive goods from other businesses that similarly depend on what society as a whole have paid for.

You can choose what you want to sell. What you can't do is discriminate against citizens that have contributed to the infrastructure on which you depend simply because of who they are. I am surprised that isn't self-evident.

Mantrik: Have you ever been discriminated against based on something you have no control over?
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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

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Mantrik wrote: Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:13 pmYou seem to want to judge the Moslem as invariably more deeply committed than the Christian, which is itself a dodgy assumption and offensive to many I suspect.
WTF are you talking about??? :rolleye:

Would you go to a vegetarian shop and ask for a pork chop? No.

So WhyTF would you go to a Halal or Kosher butcher shop and ask for a pork chop? If you went to a Halal or Kosher butcher shop and asked for lamb chops, would they refuse to serve you because you are not a Jew or Muslim? No.

A cake shop is a cake shop. There is no such category as a Christian Right-wing fundamentalist cake shop. It is just a friggin' cake shop. As such if a man goes in and asks for a cake with pink icing with "Happy Dick Day" written on it, the cake shop owner does not have any right to refuse them. If the cake-shop owner puts up a sign saying: "Niggers, Jews, poofters and Commies will not be served." then they will be breaking the law.

The Halal / Kosher butcher shop is not refusing to serve people on the basis of their identity, it just does not sell the certain product. Like it does not sell screw drivers.

How difficult is it to understand that your comparison is completely invalid?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Eddo »

boda wrote: Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:06 pm Last night Sean Hannity (Fox News contributor) said, “many are hailing Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez as a rising star on the political landscape but in reality, her views, her policy positions, are actually downright scary.” And then showed a graphic outlining her platform:

“Medicare For All”
“Housing As a Human Right”
“A Federal Jobs Guarantee”
“Gun Control / Assault Weapons Ban”
“Criminal Justice Reform, End Private Prisons”
“Immigration Justice / Abolish ICE”
“Solidarity with Puerto Rico”
“Mobilizing Against Climate Change”
“Clean Campaign Finance”
“Higher Education for All”
“Women’s Rights”
“Support LGBTQIA+”
“Support Seniors”
“Curb Wall Street Gambling: Restore Glass Steagall”

Do conservatives actually find these positions scary?
Love to see how all this would get paid for
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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Mantrik »

Karma Dorje wrote: Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:22 pm Mantrik: Have you ever been discriminated against based on something you have no control over?
Why ask me? Isn't that disciminating against me in a way which is beyond my control? ;)

Answer: yes, many times. Relevance: none.

If you think I am pro-discrimination, you are right - we need to discriminate between the important and the trivial. If you think I am in favour of giving unequal treatment to people for any reason, you are wrong..very wrong.

But I am going to stand up for what is fair and reasonable and for priorities in societies where social services, health care and education are all in crisis, and the last thing we need is someone whining about not having a special toilet or operation because of their gender transition when people are ferkin starving and dying on hospital trolleys.

Yes, let's 'get real' and stop pratting about with trivia which are hugely expensive and, to pick up on your other point, vastly disproportionate in relation to income.

Businesses benefit from infrastructure so should pander to every whim even if it bankrupts them? Nope - this has already happened with our UK health care.
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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Mantrik »

Grigoris wrote: Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:27 pm
Mantrik wrote: Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:13 pmYou seem to want to judge the Moslem as invariably more deeply committed than the Christian, which is itself a dodgy assumption and offensive to many I suspect.
WTF are you talking about??? :rolleye:
You belittle and misrepresent the Christian by not even mentioning their faith and invent a spurious reason for refusal, and yet elevate the Moslem:

''A Muslim butcher (in a Christian country) refusing to make a pork pie, is not the same as a straight white male refusing to serve a gay or black person. Not by any stretch of the imagination.''
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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Grigoris »

Mantrik wrote: Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:41 pmYou belittle and misrepresent the Christian by not even mentioning their faith and invent a spurious reason for refusal, and yet elevate the Moslem:

''A Muslim butcher (in a Christian country) refusing to make a pork pie, is not the same as a straight white male refusing to serve a gay or black person. Not by any stretch of the imagination.''
Complete and utter hogwash.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Mantrik »

Grigoris wrote: Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:47 pm
Mantrik wrote: Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:41 pmYou belittle and misrepresent the Christian by not even mentioning their faith and invent a spurious reason for refusal, and yet elevate the Moslem:

''A Muslim butcher (in a Christian country) refusing to make a pork pie, is not the same as a straight white male refusing to serve a gay or black person. Not by any stretch of the imagination.''
Complete and utter hogwash.
So how did you conveniently forget that the 'straight white male' profile you invented was, in my examples, actually a person motivated by deeply held Christian conviction?

To return to you recently edited post, the butcher's shop is just a butcher's shop, as the cake shop is juts a cake shop. But the owner is Moslem so refuses a request. In spite of your hysterics, it is the same as the Christian shop owner also refusing. Exactly the same.

And precisely how did a 'black person' creep into the conversation?

I'm afraid again and again you do not address the points I make. You invent your own oddities with which you can then argue. I'm beginning to wonder if you should change your ID to Straw Man.

This has happened so many times I think I'll just ignore the straw men. Do we have a 'straw man' emoticon? Or just :roll:
Last edited by Mantrik on Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by DGA »

boda wrote: Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:06 pm Last night Sean Hannity (Fox News contributor) said, “many are hailing Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez as a rising star on the political landscape but in reality, her views, her policy positions, are actually downright scary.” And then showed a graphic outlining her platform:

“Medicare For All”
“Housing As a Human Right”
“A Federal Jobs Guarantee”
“Gun Control / Assault Weapons Ban”
“Criminal Justice Reform, End Private Prisons”
“Immigration Justice / Abolish ICE”
“Solidarity with Puerto Rico”
“Mobilizing Against Climate Change”
“Clean Campaign Finance”
“Higher Education for All”
“Women’s Rights”
“Support LGBTQIA+”
“Support Seniors”
“Curb Wall Street Gambling: Restore Glass Steagall”

Do conservatives actually find these positions scary?
Hannity created a nice advertisement for Ocasio-Cortez there.

But to your point, I think the Faux News set recognizes figures like Ocasio-Cortez as a threat, and they want to marginalize her right away.
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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Karma Dorje »

Mantrik wrote: Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:37 pm If you think I am pro-discrimination, you are right - we need to discriminate between the important and the trivial. If you think I am in favour of giving unequal treatment to people for any reason, you are wrong..very wrong.

But I am going to stand up for what is fair and reasonable and for priorities in societies where social services, health care and education are all in crisis, and the last thing we need is someone whining about not having a special toilet or operation because of their gender transition when people are ferkin starving and dying on hospital trolleys.

Yes, let's 'get real' and stop pratting about with trivia which are hugely expensive and, to pick up on your other point, vastly disproportionate in relation to income.

Businesses benefit from infrastructure so should pander to every whim even if it bankrupts them? Nope - this has already happened with our UK health care.
You are showing your true colours here. Sexual orientation and gender identification are not whims. Further, it doesn't cost a baker any more to put an LGBTQ message on a cake than a straight one.

It's risible that you lead with discriminating between the important and trivial, then proceed to emphasize a trivial detail that has absolutely no bearing on the solvency of your health care system. Health care is going bankrupt, if that is not mere hyperbole, because of chronic underfunding and poor management, NOT because of adding apocryphal bathrooms. We are in a time when beggar-thy-neighbour is the rule of thumb. I happily pay a significant amount of tax so that everyone can have at least a baseline of health, sustenance and shelter. I think most people feel the same way.

The real problem is parasitic corporations that utilize the infrastructure that we ALL built and don't pay THEIR share for the privilege. Fix that and you fix healthcare.
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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Karma Dorje »

Eddo wrote: Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:31 pm
boda wrote: Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:06 pm Last night Sean Hannity (Fox News contributor) said, “many are hailing Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez as a rising star on the political landscape but in reality, her views, her policy positions, are actually downright scary.” And then showed a graphic outlining her platform:

“Medicare For All”
“Housing As a Human Right”
“A Federal Jobs Guarantee”
“Gun Control / Assault Weapons Ban”
“Criminal Justice Reform, End Private Prisons”
“Immigration Justice / Abolish ICE”
“Solidarity with Puerto Rico”
“Mobilizing Against Climate Change”
“Clean Campaign Finance”
“Higher Education for All”
“Women’s Rights”
“Support LGBTQIA+”
“Support Seniors”
“Curb Wall Street Gambling: Restore Glass Steagall”

Do conservatives actually find these positions scary?
Love to see how all this would get paid for
That's easy, the Canadian federal budget is publicly accessible on the Internet, as are the budgets of Denmark, Sweden, Switzerland, etc.
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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Mantrik »

Karma Dorje wrote: Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:14 pm
Mantrik wrote: Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:37 pm If you think I am pro-discrimination, you are right - we need to discriminate between the important and the trivial. If you think I am in favour of giving unequal treatment to people for any reason, you are wrong..very wrong.

But I am going to stand up for what is fair and reasonable and for priorities in societies where social services, health care and education are all in crisis, and the last thing we need is someone whining about not having a special toilet or operation because of their gender transition when people are ferkin starving and dying on hospital trolleys.

Yes, let's 'get real' and stop pratting about with trivia which are hugely expensive and, to pick up on your other point, vastly disproportionate in relation to income.

Businesses benefit from infrastructure so should pander to every whim even if it bankrupts them? Nope - this has already happened with our UK health care.
You are showing your true colours here. Sexual orientation and gender identification are not whims. Further, it doesn't cost a baker any more to put an LGBTQ message on a cake than a straight one.

It's risible that you lead with discriminating between the important and trivial, then proceed to emphasize a trivial detail that has absolutely no bearing on the solvency of your health care system. Health care is going bankrupt, if that is not mere hyperbole, because of chronic underfunding and poor management, NOT because of adding apocryphal bathrooms. We are in a time when beggar-thy-neighbour is the rule of thumb. I happily pay a significant amount of tax so that everyone can have at least a baseline of health, sustenance and shelter. I think most people feel the same way.

The real problem is parasitic corporations that utilize the infrastructure that we ALL built and don't pay THEIR share for the privilege. Fix that and you fix healthcare.
You are projecting re 'true colours'.

The basis for refusal was not cost as you well know - why invent such a silly idea about the cost of icing? Did you read nothing about the two cases I quoted? It was deeply held religious conviction, which nobody sought to obfuscate at all.

If a school has to spend its budget on changing the toilets, kids go without materials and teachers are made redundant. It is that crude and that true. It is not apocryphal but happening right now. Look up UK Equality Act. Here's one aspect of the problem:
''Schools are in a bind because of their legal obligations under the Equality Act and Public Sector Equality Duty to protect transgender students, but they also have a legal duty to protect girls as a sex-based protected category. If girls lose the right to set their boundaries, to say “no” to males coming into their spaces, new legislation takes away protection of a legally protected category of people who are already the most discriminated against and abused in schools.''
So schools have run scared and in one case pandered to the trans kid only to have to then revert to the previous situation becuase of protests from hundreds of girls.

Councils in the UK are bankrupt due to social care costs, so elderly patients remain in the NHS, which is now having to cancel many categories of operation. They do not need additional demands from tiny minorities who may be perfectly sincere but not facing death. Yes, those are the choices. They are about to scrap chemo for the elderly with cancer. Try speaking to your local NHS hospital and asking them about their budget.
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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Karma Dorje »

Mantrik wrote: Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:34 pm Councils in the UK are bankrupt due to social care costs, so elderly patients remain in the NHS, which is now having to cancel many categories of operation. They do not need additional demands from tiny minorities who may be perfectly sincere but not facing death. Yes, those are the choices. They are about to scrap chemo for the elderly with cancer. Try speaking to your local NHS hospital and asking them about their budget.
You have not addressed the substance of my argument. The UK spends less on healthcare as a percentage of GDP than France or Germany. If the UK spent the equivalent percentage of GDP as Germany, there would be no NHS funding shortfall. The problem is not insignificant costs such as bathrooms, it is chronic underfunding at a time that costs are rising to care for aging baby boomers. Sure it's easy for you to target an out group and blame your problems on them. In fact, that's what the OP was questioning in the first place.

I really don't know how we square caring for others more than ourselves with being insensitive to the plight of often persecuted minorities. If I have to pay more taxes so that children can feel safe regardless of gender identification, I am quite happy to. Here's a thought: shelve some fighter jets and spend the money on NHS and education. At issue is how messed up our spending priorities are and how resistant the rich are to shouldering the tax burden. Making the issue of underfunding for education and healthcare about adding bathrooms for people who are not cis-gendered is simply a deflection based on your lack of sympathy for these kids.
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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Dorje Shedrub »

Mantrik wrote: Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:13 pm If we are into the 'get real' scenario, I think in the West very very few people in these gender or sexual preference groups experience the level of discrimination common due to race or colour. And my part of the discussion was mainly about the trivia of pandering to the ever-increasing number of tiny self-righteous minorities whose entitlement mentality is skewing the allocation of the very slim resource available to people in great need.

Academic, largely, as the bottom of the list is unlikely to ever be reached.
Entitlement minority? Typical right wing remark to civil rights. The vast majority of the US does not have anti-discrimination protections for the LGBT community. No one should be fired or discriminated against in employment due to their sexual orientation or gender identity. They should also be able to conduct business the same as their heterosexual and gender conforming counterparts. With Trump, many of us are concerned that we will lose what little progress was made.
Center for American Progress wrote:1 in 4 LGBT people report experiencing discrimination in 2016

Over the past decade, the nation has made unprecedented progress toward LGBT equality. But to date, neither the federal government nor most states have explicit statutory nondiscrimination laws protecting people on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity. LGBT people still face widespread discrimination: Between 11 percent and 28 percent of LGB workers report losing a promotion simply because of their sexual orientation, and 27 percent of transgender workers report being fired, not hired, or denied a promotion in the past year. Discrimination also routinely affects LGBT people beyond the workplace, sometimes costing them their homes, access to education, and even the ability to engage in public life.

Data from a nationally representative survey of LGBT people conducted by CAP shows that 25.2 percent of LGBT respondents has experienced discrimination because of their sexual orientation or gender identity in the past year. The January 2017 survey shows that, despite progress, in 2016 discrimination remained a widespread threat to LGBT people’s well-being, health, and economic security.
Widespread Discrimination Continues to Shape LGBT People’s Lives in Both Subtle and Significant Ways
Then there is the increase in hate crimes:
Human Rights Campaign wrote:In 2016, 6,121 hate crime incidents were reported --an increase of five percent from 2015. Of the 6,121 incidents reported,1,076 were based on sexual orientation bias and 124 were based on gender identity bias. These numbers reflect a two percent and nine percent increase, respectively.

Of the 124 incidents based on gender identity, 19 targeted gender non-conforming people, a decrease of 54 percent from 2015. Yet, of those same 124 incidents,105 targeted transgender people, an increase of 44 percent from 2015.

However, these numbers likely represent only a fraction of such cases, given that reporting hate crimes to the FBI is not mandatory. Thousands of law enforcement agencies throughout the country did not submit any data. And while the number of jurisdictions reporting hate crimes data increased to 15,251 in 2016 from 14,997 in 2015, this is still less than the 15,494 agencies that reported in 2014. The lack of mandatory reporting means that the FBI data, while helpful, paints a very incomplete picture of hate crimes against LGBTQ Americans.
New FBI Data Shows Increased Reported Incidents of Anti-LGBTQ Hate Crimes in 2016
This is still a country where some people put up
No Gays Allowed signs.

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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Mantrik »

Karma Dorje wrote: Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:09 pm
Mantrik wrote: Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:34 pm Councils in the UK are bankrupt due to social care costs, so elderly patients remain in the NHS, which is now having to cancel many categories of operation. They do not need additional demands from tiny minorities who may be perfectly sincere but not facing death. Yes, those are the choices. They are about to scrap chemo for the elderly with cancer. Try speaking to your local NHS hospital and asking them about their budget.
You have not addressed the substance of my argument. The UK spends less on healthcare as a percentage of GDP than France or Germany. If the UK spent the equivalent percentage of GDP as Germany, there would be no NHS funding shortfall. The problem is not insignificant costs such as bathrooms, it is chronic underfunding at a time that costs are rising to care for aging baby boomers. Sure it's easy for you to target an out group and blame your problems on them. In fact, that's what the OP was questioning in the first place.

I really don't know how we square caring for others more than ourselves with being insensitive to the plight of often persecuted minorities. If I have to pay more taxes so that children can feel safe regardless of gender identification, I am quite happy to. Here's a thought: shelve some fighter jets and spend the money on NHS and education. At issue is how messed up our spending priorities are and how resistant the rich are to shouldering the tax burden. Making the issue of underfunding for education and healthcare about adding bathrooms for people who are not cis-gendered is simply a deflection based on your lack of sympathy for these kids.
Absolutely. I have met nobody who would disagree that we needto pay more tax forthe crumbling NHS and Social Care issues. However, back in the present, we are indeed having to choose who dies. I really can't get that excited about far less important issues.
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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Karma Dorje »

Mantrik wrote: Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:20 pm
Karma Dorje wrote: Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:09 pm
Mantrik wrote: Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:34 pm Councils in the UK are bankrupt due to social care costs, so elderly patients remain in the NHS, which is now having to cancel many categories of operation. They do not need additional demands from tiny minorities who may be perfectly sincere but not facing death. Yes, those are the choices. They are about to scrap chemo for the elderly with cancer. Try speaking to your local NHS hospital and asking them about their budget.
You have not addressed the substance of my argument. The UK spends less on healthcare as a percentage of GDP than France or Germany. If the UK spent the equivalent percentage of GDP as Germany, there would be no NHS funding shortfall. The problem is not insignificant costs such as bathrooms, it is chronic underfunding at a time that costs are rising to care for aging baby boomers. Sure it's easy for you to target an out group and blame your problems on them. In fact, that's what the OP was questioning in the first place.

I really don't know how we square caring for others more than ourselves with being insensitive to the plight of often persecuted minorities. If I have to pay more taxes so that children can feel safe regardless of gender identification, I am quite happy to. Here's a thought: shelve some fighter jets and spend the money on NHS and education. At issue is how messed up our spending priorities are and how resistant the rich are to shouldering the tax burden. Making the issue of underfunding for education and healthcare about adding bathrooms for people who are not cis-gendered is simply a deflection based on your lack of sympathy for these kids.
Absolutely. I have met nobody who would disagree that we needto pay more tax forthe crumbling NHS and Social Care issues. However, back in the present, we are indeed having to choose who dies. I really can't get that excited about far less important issues.
It's simple then. Work actively to kick out the Tories.
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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Dan74 »

Mantrik is right about the central point- the loss of perspective in the mad dash to appear progressive, modern and of course to avoid protests and win votes.

It's not about dismissing the rights of minorities. In Australia we have entire cities dying due to factories closing and no prospects for most workers. Suicides through the roof, addiction.. But until it was thankfully resolved late last year, gay marriage occupied the front and centre of the national consciousness. We don't really want to hear from those jobless yobbos. But we wanna be cool and progressive like the rest of the west. And besides it was a great issue to argue over and one that was prerry easily resolved in the end.

But some progressives still think the blackshirts are marching in the streets.. Well maybe in Greece they are. But in places like Australia and the UK if they make a come back, it'll not be due to a lack of action by the progressives. It'll be because they have lost touch eith reality and with concerns and struggles of ordinary people. A sense of perspective and common sense.

My impression was that Sanders in the US actually walked away from some of the toxic identity politics that Democrats would ruthlessly engage in when it suited them. Don't know enough about Corbyn. He'd probably be too scared to.

If I have a cake shop here in Switzerland and a local SVP guy comes in and orders a cake that says "monkeys belong in the jungle. Eritreans go back!" I want my frak right to tell him what I think of that rather than be compelled to oblige or give up my livelihood. There should be lines one can and cannot cross. It is not absolute. But yes if there is a Christian cake shop that doesn't want to decorate the cakes with two dudes having it off, they should be able to as well. Here we should distinguish between different kinds of services. My wife is a potter who sometimes takes orders but often turns them down simply because it's not something she'd like to do. But obviously a doctor or a pharmacist is another matter. I think the restaurant had a right not to serve Huckabee Sanders. But an accommodation? Not sure. Legislation is needed. But again, not so important, except for essential services.

See, we argue about these marginal things. All the while deep structural inequalities mentioned in the OP remain..
Last edited by Dan74 on Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:44 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Mantrik
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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Mantrik »

Dorje Shedrub wrote: Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:13 pm
Mantrik wrote: Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:13 pm If we are into the 'get real' scenario, I think in the West very very few people in these gender or sexual preference groups experience the level of discrimination common due to race or colour. And my part of the discussion was mainly about the trivia of pandering to the ever-increasing number of tiny self-righteous minorities whose entitlement mentality is skewing the allocation of the very slim resource available to people in great need.

Academic, largely, as the bottom of the list is unlikely to ever be reached.
Entitlement minority? Typical right wing remark to civil rights. The vast majority of the US does not have anti-discrimination protections for the LGBT community. No one should be fired or discriminated against in employment due to their sexual orientation or gender identity. They should also be able to conduct business the same as their heterosexual and gender conforming counterparts. With Trump, many of us are concerned that we will lose what little progress was made.
Center for American Progress wrote:1 in 4 LGBT people report experiencing discrimination in 2016

Over the past decade, the nation has made unprecedented progress toward LGBT equality. But to date, neither the federal government nor most states have explicit statutory nondiscrimination laws protecting people on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity. LGBT people still face widespread discrimination: Between 11 percent and 28 percent of LGB workers report losing a promotion simply because of their sexual orientation, and 27 percent of transgender workers report being fired, not hired, or denied a promotion in the past year. Discrimination also routinely affects LGBT people beyond the workplace, sometimes costing them their homes, access to education, and even the ability to engage in public life.

Data from a nationally representative survey of LGBT people conducted by CAP shows that 25.2 percent of LGBT respondents has experienced discrimination because of their sexual orientation or gender identity in the past year. The January 2017 survey shows that, despite progress, in 2016 discrimination remained a widespread threat to LGBT people’s well-being, health, and economic security.
Widespread Discrimination Continues to Shape LGBT People’s Lives in Both Subtle and Significant Ways
Then there is the increase in hate crimes:
Human Rights Campaign wrote:In 2016, 6,121 hate crime incidents were reported --an increase of five percent from 2015. Of the 6,121 incidents reported,1,076 were based on sexual orientation bias and 124 were based on gender identity bias. These numbers reflect a two percent and nine percent increase, respectively.

Of the 124 incidents based on gender identity, 19 targeted gender non-conforming people, a decrease of 54 percent from 2015. Yet, of those same 124 incidents,105 targeted transgender people, an increase of 44 percent from 2015.

However, these numbers likely represent only a fraction of such cases, given that reporting hate crimes to the FBI is not mandatory. Thousands of law enforcement agencies throughout the country did not submit any data. And while the number of jurisdictions reporting hate crimes data increased to 15,251 in 2016 from 14,997 in 2015, this is still less than the 15,494 agencies that reported in 2014. The lack of mandatory reporting means that the FBI data, while helpful, paints a very incomplete picture of hate crimes against LGBTQ Americans.
New FBI Data Shows Increased Reported Incidents of Anti-LGBTQ Hate Crimes in 2016
This is still a country where some people put up
No Gays Allowed signs.

DS
Nice general points and very topical for the OP.

Quite how you connet it to my individual points I don't know other than to somehow seeking to stick a label on me based on a totally truthful remark that we have an increasing number of minority groups being identifed and demanding what they feel entitled to have.

We are in an age where people feel entitled to spend their money on 'living the dream' and still deserve to buy a house etc. I can tell you with certainty that where the NHS is concerned, those who shout loudest win out when resources are scarce and many end upon a trolley in a corridor in pain...and die.

I make no apology for saying that someone wanting to bully the NHS using the new law to demand special toilets in hospitals because they are transitioning should feck off and wait behind people who are about to be denied chemo.

Right now, that is what we are facing. However much we all may want to increase funding, people are dying ofneglect right now and we don't need such demands making things worse. Go to a large A&E Department and see for yourself. Watch people die as I have..then talk to me about how tough life is having to point a dick at a urinal in a dress or get treatment on a male ward instead of taking up a single room (by law) which could have been used for someone desperately ill.
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