Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

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Malcolm
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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:35 pm

kirtu wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:28 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:53 pm
kirtu wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:59 pm


Which is one reason why I will be voting with my feet in a few years. The US is at its core a socially fascist nation and will be so through my lifetime.

Kirt
Kirt, the white demographic is on the decline.
Which certainly wins the non sequitur award.

Kirt
Not at all-- the white demographic is declining, and millennials are socialist-oriented, even in conservative parts of the nation. They know they will never experience the prosperity of their grandparents, and they are looking at a world that is poisoned, etc. If anyone can change things, they can.

But the white people in the South and the Midwest are racist to the core, not even knowing it, in many cases.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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kirtu
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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by kirtu » Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:51 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:35 pm
kirtu wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:28 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:53 pm


Kirt, the white demographic is on the decline.
Which certainly wins the non sequitur award.

Kirt
Not at all-- the white demographic is declining, and millennials are socialist-oriented, even in conservative parts of the nation. They know they will never experience the prosperity of their grandparents, and they are looking at a world that is poisoned, etc. If anyone can change things, they can.

But the white people in the South and the Midwest are racist to the core, not even knowing it, in many cases.
Malcolm - the white majority in the US does not come to par with minority racial groups until 2045 given the most optimistic birth rate projections. I have seen a projection in which non-white groups don't get to the 51% mark until 2055. Now it is true that the resurgence of the KKK South and Midwest that elected the current president is tied to this demographic fact but it is only one factor.

The idea that US Millenials might successfully transform the US is untested. One problem is that they inherit the culture of their predecessors and have few means of examining their culture critically. As alwasy, the majority of Millenials have not trqaveled much and are largely ignorant of the world (just like almost all US demographic groups).

What is tested is my personal experience with most Americans. Scratch most Americans and you find a fascist. Only about 30% of the population is exempt from this tendency. If it were otherwise then the long civil rights struggle inthe US would not be so long and would not be continuing and would not require constant vigilance.

Kirt
Last edited by kirtu on Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by PSM » Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:59 pm

How exactly do define 'fascist'?
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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by kirtu » Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:03 pm

PSM wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:59 pm
How exactly do define 'fascist'?
a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism


as well as a tendency toward ruthless protection of the status quo with the possibility of violence.

Then examine the history of civil rights in the US and from my personal experience the mistreatment oif LGBTQ people.

These fascist tendencies exhibited by a large majority of Americans "permanently" discredit and poison US culture. And while there have been changes I still see and hear young teenagers and even young children target people who they think are LGBTQ for social exclusion and violence.

On top of that we have a re-segregation of people based on racial and even sometimes ethnic factors. We have police apparently targeting people of color and I am hearing the phrase "they are not American" again (thankfully not often but I heard it when discussing the US results at the International Math Olympiad as well as the top finishers at the annual national geography and spelling bee with a teacher at an elementary school).

Kirt
Last edited by kirtu on Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Jesse » Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:03 pm

To be fair there are quite a few extremist liberals out there. It's what made me start calling myself a socialist/independent.
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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by PSM » Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:15 pm

kirtu wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:03 pm
PSM wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:59 pm
How exactly do define 'fascist'?
a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism


as well as a tendency toward ruthless protection of the status quo with the possibility of violence.

Then examine the history of civil rights in the US and from my personal experience the mistreatment oif LGBTQ people.

These fascist tendencies exhibited by a large majority of Americans "permanently" discredit and poison US culture. And while there have been changes I still see and hear young teenagers and even young children target people who they think are LGBTQ for social exclusion and violence.

Kirt
Personally I think it should be reserved for clear examples of fascism as the ideology it is, not just authoritarianism or prejudice per se so as to not devalue it and its victims - but then 'nazi' is the accusation du jour.
"The only virtue which cannot be faked is courage" - Nassim Nicholas Taleb
"Not practicing dharma is painful" - Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche
"We don't want to feel the weirdness of life." - James Low

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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:22 pm

http://www.interglacial.com/pub/text/Um ... scism.html

Here's an interesting article by Umberto Eco on what Fascism is. I too get a little tired of anything autocratic and totalitarian being called "fascist", I think it's sloppy, imprecise, and could quite possibly lead to boy-who-cried-wolf issues in the future.

To be fair, a fair number of the above things characterize present day America, but not all of them are present. In fact, despite Kirt's constant blanket condemnation of all Americans, there are some things in the culture that are protective factors. For instance, I would argue that traditionalism as a whole generally does not play as well here as in Europe.
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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Wayfarer » Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:35 pm

Malcolm wrote:Buddha appears to have spearheaded a movement that among other things, cast down brahmins.
I think there's a great deal of extremely dubious equivocation in modern culture about the meaning of the word 'liberation'. In the Buddhist context, it means spiritual liberation, vimukti, nirvana, liberation from the wheel of life and death. It is an essentially religious aim. In modern liberalism it is liberation to pursue one's identity, projects, and passions without interference by the state - of which 'sexual liberation' is one expression. I am yet to see the verses in Buddhism about the virtues of pleasing oneself or doing as you wish, but these are fundamental to political liberalism.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki Roshi

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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Dan74 » Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:37 pm

Kirt, you probably have your finger much more on the pulse of what's happening in Germany. My impression from the snippets I catch here, is that there is a real risk of things coming to a head, if there is much more trouble with the recent asylum seekers.

Of course most people are thankful and want to make the most of it. But out of nearly 2 million new arrivals, it only taken 0.1% of bad eggs and you have 200 sensation rape/murder cases around Germany with the media milking it for all its worth and the people forming paramilitary gangs and torching the migrant hostels. beating people with middle-eastern appearance... major civil unrest. The police most likely hushed up the Christmas harassment/rapes. How much more can the country take?

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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by conebeckham » Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:44 pm

Eddo wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:31 pm
boda wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:06 pm
Last night Sean Hannity (Fox News contributor) said, “many are hailing Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez as a rising star on the political landscape but in reality, her views, her policy positions, are actually downright scary.” And then showed a graphic outlining her platform:

“Medicare For All”
“Housing As a Human Right”
“A Federal Jobs Guarantee”
“Gun Control / Assault Weapons Ban”
“Criminal Justice Reform, End Private Prisons”
“Immigration Justice / Abolish ICE”
“Solidarity with Puerto Rico”
“Mobilizing Against Climate Change”
“Clean Campaign Finance”
“Higher Education for All”
“Women’s Rights”
“Support LGBTQIA+”
“Support Seniors”
“Curb Wall Street Gambling: Restore Glass Steagall”

Do conservatives actually find these positions scary?
Love to see how all this would get paid for
Quite a few of these are frankly cost free, or long-term money savers.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Virgo » Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:49 pm

Eddo wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:31 pm
boda wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:06 pm
Last night Sean Hannity (Fox News contributor) said, “many are hailing Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez as a rising star on the political landscape but in reality, her views, her policy positions, are actually downright scary.” And then showed a graphic outlining her platform:

“Medicare For All”
“Housing As a Human Right”
“A Federal Jobs Guarantee”
“Gun Control / Assault Weapons Ban”
“Criminal Justice Reform, End Private Prisons”
“Immigration Justice / Abolish ICE”
“Solidarity with Puerto Rico”
“Mobilizing Against Climate Change”
“Clean Campaign Finance”
“Higher Education for All”
“Women’s Rights”
“Support LGBTQIA+”
“Support Seniors”
“Curb Wall Street Gambling: Restore Glass Steagall”

Do conservatives actually find these positions scary?
Love to see how all this would get paid for
taxes.

Kevin...

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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Karma Dorje » Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:30 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:22 pm
http://www.interglacial.com/pub/text/Um ... scism.html

Here's an interesting article by Umberto Eco on what Fascism is. I too get a little tired of anything autocratic and totalitarian being called "fascist", I think it's sloppy, imprecise, and could quite possibly lead to boy-who-cried-wolf issues in the future.

To be fair, a fair number of the above things characterize present day America, but not all of them are present. In fact, despite Kirt's constant blanket condemnation of all Americans, there are some things in the culture that are protective factors. For instance, I would argue that traditionalism as a whole generally does not play as well here as in Europe.
Of course traditionalism plays well in the USA. The mythology of the Constitution is its primary form in right wing circles. The 2nd Amendment was included in the Bill of Rights to legitimize slave patrols in the South. Why is it still necessary in the 21st century, if not hearkening back to a pre-modern view? I can't see anything on Eco's list that isn't ticked by contemporary American politics.
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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Virgo » Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:40 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:35 pm

Not at all-- the white demographic is declining, and millennials are socialist-oriented, even in conservative parts of the nation. They know they will never experience the prosperity of their grandparents, and they are looking at a world that is poisoned, etc. If anyone can change things, they can.
Yes, and Jimmy presents some interesting stats in the following video:


Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:35 pm
But the white people in the South and the Midwest are racist to the core, not even knowing it, in many cases.
There is tons of unconscious racism in this country (I am not sure if that is the right term for it).

Kevin...

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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by KRB80 » Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:09 am

Here is a good article that references that Umberto Eco text on "Ur-Fascism", that Johnny Dangerous posted:

https://lithub.com/umberto-eco-on-donal ... a-fascist/
We live in illusion and the appearance of things. There is a reality. We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all. - Kalu Rinpoche

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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Quay » Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:41 am

kirtu wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:59 pm
Quay wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:38 am
kirtu wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:36 am
... Most of the US can legally refuse to provide goods and services to LBGTQ people....
Yes it can an often does. I live in one of those states where it is perfectly legal to do so and have been the victim of such discrimination in more than one setting, including a medical one at a hospital. It's completely tragic how some lives are seen as worth less than others by some people.
Which is one reason why I will be voting with my feet in a few years. The US is at its core a socially fascist nation and will be so through my lifetime.

Kirt
Perhaps we can split the cost of a shipping container for household goods. :) I've always wanted to live overseas and now seems like a rather good time to do so.

Of course the political pendulum will swing back (change, etc.) but the question is exactly when and what can I do at the time & in the near future not only to be the best practitioner I can be but also to help others? I agree with this timeline and probabilities:
kirtu wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:51 pm

Malcolm - the white majority in the US does not come to par with minority racial groups until 2045 given the most optimistic birth rate projections. I have seen a projection in which non-white groups don't get to the 51% mark until 2055. Now it is true that the resurgence of the KKK South and Midwest that elected the current president is tied to this demographic fact but it is only one factor.

The idea that US Millenials might successfully transform the US is untested. One problem is that they inherit the culture of their predecessors and have few means of examining their culture critically. As alwasy, the majority of Millenials have not trqaveled much and are largely ignorant of the world (just like almost all US demographic groups).

What is tested is my personal experience with most Americans. Scratch most Americans and you find a fascist. Only about 30% of the population is exempt from this tendency. If it were otherwise then the long civil rights struggle inthe US would not be so long and would not be continuing and would not require constant vigilance.
Kirt
The US will come out of this dark period but as to when and in what kind of shape...well. If I was much younger I might have different ideas and feeling about it all. But since I'm not I shall consider other plans.
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.

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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:21 am

Virgo wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:49 pm
Eddo wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:31 pm
boda wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:06 pm
Last night Sean Hannity (Fox News contributor) said, “many are hailing Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez as a rising star on the political landscape but in reality, her views, her policy positions, are actually downright scary.” And then showed a graphic outlining her platform:

“Medicare For All”
“Housing As a Human Right”
“A Federal Jobs Guarantee”
“Gun Control / Assault Weapons Ban”
“Criminal Justice Reform, End Private Prisons”
“Immigration Justice / Abolish ICE”
“Solidarity with Puerto Rico”
“Mobilizing Against Climate Change”
“Clean Campaign Finance”
“Higher Education for All”
“Women’s Rights”
“Support LGBTQIA+”
“Support Seniors”
“Curb Wall Street Gambling: Restore Glass Steagall”

Do conservatives actually find these positions scary?
Love to see how all this would get paid for
taxes.

Kevin...
Can't believe people even need to ask that, (*&^5ing ridiculous, ever growing defense budget, that's how.
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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by KRB80 » Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:49 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:21 am
Virgo wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:49 pm
Eddo wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:31 pm


Love to see how all this would get paid for
taxes.

Kevin...
Can't believe people even need to ask that, (*&^5ing ridiculous, ever growing defense budget, that's how.
Indeed. But that, however, would hinder the neoliberal agenda. :crazy:
We live in illusion and the appearance of things. There is a reality. We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all. - Kalu Rinpoche

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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Tlalok » Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:13 pm

Eddo wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:31 pm
boda wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:06 pm
Last night Sean Hannity (Fox News contributor) said, “many are hailing Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez as a rising star on the political landscape but in reality, her views, her policy positions, are actually downright scary.” And then showed a graphic outlining her platform:

“Medicare For All”
“Housing As a Human Right”
“A Federal Jobs Guarantee”
“Gun Control / Assault Weapons Ban”
“Criminal Justice Reform, End Private Prisons”
“Immigration Justice / Abolish ICE”
“Solidarity with Puerto Rico”
“Mobilizing Against Climate Change”
“Clean Campaign Finance”
“Higher Education for All”
“Women’s Rights”
“Support LGBTQIA+”
“Support Seniors”
“Curb Wall Street Gambling: Restore Glass Steagall”

Do conservatives actually find these positions scary?
Love to see how all this would get paid for
The development of the F-35 program has cost $406.5 billion to date and each one is gonna cost like $120 million and they're gonna build like 1700 of them. I don't know if this is including the totally rad helmet mounted HUD costs $400,000 a pop and doesn't work. Gutting that would free up a ton of space. It also loses dogfights against F-16s which came into service in the '70s so I'm not sure its a good use of money. The F-35 is just the most egregious waste of money in the military-industrial complex. The US could still have the most powerful military by an order of magnitude with less than a quarter of its current military budget.

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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Norwegian » Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:27 pm

Tlalok wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:13 pm
Eddo wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:31 pm
boda wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:06 pm
Last night Sean Hannity (Fox News contributor) said, “many are hailing Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez as a rising star on the political landscape but in reality, her views, her policy positions, are actually downright scary.” And then showed a graphic outlining her platform:

“Medicare For All”
“Housing As a Human Right”
“A Federal Jobs Guarantee”
“Gun Control / Assault Weapons Ban”
“Criminal Justice Reform, End Private Prisons”
“Immigration Justice / Abolish ICE”
“Solidarity with Puerto Rico”
“Mobilizing Against Climate Change”
“Clean Campaign Finance”
“Higher Education for All”
“Women’s Rights”
“Support LGBTQIA+”
“Support Seniors”
“Curb Wall Street Gambling: Restore Glass Steagall”

Do conservatives actually find these positions scary?
Love to see how all this would get paid for
The development of the F-35 program has cost $406.5 billion to date and each one is gonna cost like $120 million and they're gonna build like 1700 of them. I don't know if this is including the totally rad helmet mounted HUD costs $400,000 a pop and doesn't work. Gutting that would free up a ton of space. It also loses dogfights against F-16s which came into service in the '70s so I'm not sure its a good use of money. The F-35 is just the most egregious waste of money in the military-industrial complex. The US could still have the most powerful military by an order of magnitude with less than a quarter of its current military budget.
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/no-the- ... y-an-f-16/

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Tlalok
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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Tlalok » Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:41 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:27 pm
Tlalok wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:13 pm
Eddo wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:31 pm


Love to see how all this would get paid for
The development of the F-35 program has cost $406.5 billion to date and each one is gonna cost like $120 million and they're gonna build like 1700 of them. I don't know if this is including the totally rad helmet mounted HUD costs $400,000 a pop and doesn't work. Gutting that would free up a ton of space. It also loses dogfights against F-16s which came into service in the '70s so I'm not sure its a good use of money. The F-35 is just the most egregious waste of money in the military-industrial complex. The US could still have the most powerful military by an order of magnitude with less than a quarter of its current military budget.
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/no-the- ... y-an-f-16/
Well that's reassuring I suppose. Did they get around to fixing the helmet then? Either way the money could seriously be spent on an infinity of better things.

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