Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

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MiphamFan
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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by MiphamFan » Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:47 pm

The Muslim butcher example is not that good.

Better example: Would you expect a Muslim baker to have to decorate a cake with LGBT slogans?

If yes, fine, you are at least consistent.

If not, then well...

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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by boda » Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:55 pm

MiphamFan wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:57 am
I think "liberal" immigration laws are meant to exploit the poor and destroy the native working class. Have no issue with the rest except what it means to "support LGBT. I think private businesses have the right to say they can't decorate a cake with LGBT messages.
Yeah, abolishing ICE was the only thing on the list that I thought might actually be "scary" alarming to the average conservative.

I haven't heard of the Federal Jobs Guarantee but with ever increasing automation it's probably a good idea to start planning, at least.

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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:04 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:31 pm
If I have a cake shop here in Switzerland and a local SVP guy comes in and orders a cake that says "monkeys belong in the jungle. Eritreans go back!" I want my frak right to tell him what I think of that rather than be compelled to oblige or give up my livelihood.
Again this is a false equivalence. Again what is being ignored here is power. Is there systematic discrimination against members of the SVP in Switzerland so they cannot express and fulfill their basic human feelings and needs? Are they part of a historically oppressed and persecuted group in Switzerland?
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Grigoris
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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:14 pm

MiphamFan wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:47 pm
The Muslim butcher example is not that good.

Better example: Would you expect a Muslim baker to have to decorate a cake with LGBT slogans?

If yes, fine, you are at least consistent.

If not, then well...
Isn't it telling that the discussion keeps referring to Muslim butchers and not Jewish Halal butcher stores, given that Halal stores don't serve pork either? :thinking:

And in response to your question: Of course I f*ckin' would.
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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Mantrik » Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:30 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:14 pm
Isn't it telling that the discussion keeps referring to Muslim butchers and not Jewish Halal butcher stores, given that Halal stores don't serve pork either?
No. But thanks for another insult. I was talking about a Moslem Pakistani area I knew, earlier in the same post, so it came to mind. That's really sinister of course.

Straw man inventions not succeeding? Let's go for abuse. You fail every time. Grow up.
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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Quay » Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:50 pm

Regarding the Masterpiece Cakeshop ruling, Justice Ginsberg's dissent gets to the heart of the matter: "What matters is that Phillips would not provide a good or service to a same-sex couple that he would provide to a heterosexual couple." The majority spent considerable time dancing around that simple point in their slog to a narrow ruling.
Mantrik wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:40 pm
...we have an increasing number of minority groups being identifed and demanding what they feel entitled to have....
Spoken like a truly aggrieved white man in an age where that group is on the decline in no small part to its long history of denying other human beings rights that they they selfishly accord themselves as self-evident and totally deserving.

Why does it bother you that other people unlike you wish to be treated the same as you? Are you judge and jury on what they think is important to them? Do you think yourself capable of making decisions about other people's lives and only consider what you think is important and not what they value?
I make no apology for saying that someone wanting to bully the NHS using the new law to demand special toilets in hospitals because they are transitioning should feck off and wait behind people who are about to be denied chemo.
Blaming recently recognized groups of people that only recently have become to be seen as actually being people for systemic problems arising from the conservative government's policies and many years of mismanagement & neglect is more than convenient, it is scapegoating of a pretty vile kind. It is really wildly weird to focus and load everything on what happened in the last ten minutes, so to speak, than the years leading up to the current situation.

Then again, all that is happening in a country that unhesitatingly accords vast wealth, privilege, and super-status to a small group of people who arrive at all that by accident of birth. Which is a sideways way of saying that the points the OP brings up and the political positions the soon to be elected congresswoman from New York espouses seem to be one of the only ways many societies will be able to survive and thrive, by attempting to taking care of everyone instead of a select few.
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MiphamFan
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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by MiphamFan » Sun Jul 01, 2018 12:27 am

This sums up my thoughts:
What about the religious communities that are opposed to that right? (This is where I’m going to shift gears from offending my readers on the rightward end of things to offending those on the other end of the political spectrum.) Conservative Christian groups are a religious minority in America today, and it’s a well-established rule in American law and custom that reasonable accommodation should be made to religious minorities when this can be done without violating the agreed-upon rights of others. That doesn’t give conservative Christians the right to force other people to follow conservative Christian teachings, any more than it would give Jews the right to forbid the sale of pork in America’s grocery stores. It does mean that conservative Christians should not be forced to participate in activities they consider sinful, any more than Jewish delicatessens should be forced to sell pork.

By and large, businesses that serve the general public are rightly required to serve the general public, rather than picking and choosing who they will or won’t serve, but there are valid exceptions, and religion is one of them. I’m told that in New York State, orthodox Jewish businesses are legally allowed to post signage stating that Jewish religious law applies on the premises, and this exempts them from certain laws governing other businesses; thus, for example, a woman who enters such a business with uncovered hair will not be served. It would be a reasonable accommodation for conservative Christian businesses that cater to weddings to be able to post signage noting that they only provide services to the kinds of weddings authorized by their own religious laws. That would let same-sex couples take their business elsewhere; it would also let people who support the right of same-sex marriage know which businesses to boycott, just as it would let conservative Christians support their co-religionists.

Again, any number of shiny abstractions could be brandished about to insist that conservative Christian businesses should not have that right, but here again, we’re not dealing with abstractions. We’re dealing with the need to find reasonable accommodation for differing beliefs in a society that, at least in theory, values liberty. Claims that this or that person will be harmed by letting a religious minority practice its faith on privately owned business premises, again, have to evince specific, concrete, measurable harm. Being offended doesn’t count here, either, nor does whatever suffering comes your way from being denied the power to make other people do what you think they ought to do.
I think if you don't think religious minorities should be accommodated then I think it's perfectly consistent with e.g. mandating that conservative Christians cannot refuse to decorate a cake with LGBT slogans. If the law of the land is that minorities should not be accommodated then I am also completely fine with that.

On unrestricted immigration, I think it is complete insanity -- jobs are already being lost to automation, especially in low-end unskilled segments of the market, and you want to add even more unskilled labourers? The only scenario this makes sense in is if you want an accelerationist scenario. Then OK, you're consistent. This is talking about illegal immigration, skilled labourers already migrate legally.

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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by shaunc » Sun Jul 01, 2018 12:44 am

A private business should be allowed to do business or not do business with whoever they like without explaining themselves.
If a cake shop won't sell me a cake ir a butcher won't sell me a chop, whether it be pork or lamb, the answer is quite simple. I go to another shop and get whatever it was I was after and everyone's a winner. I get my goods and the shopkeeper didn't have to serve me.
It goes on all the time. My brother is a self employed carpenter and regularly quotes himself out of jobs he doesn't want, like work on heritage buildings or customers that he doesn't feel he'll be lucky with.

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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Miroku » Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:31 am

Okay are we forgetting that lgbt people are an opressed minority and it isn't the same refusing them service as it is refusing service because someone is a nazi or the job doesn't look good?
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:22 am

You guys should read up some of the actual cases.

The couple cases i've looked at in the US were not so clear cut, they weren't gay couples coming in and saying "make us a gay cake with a big gay decoration" or anything like that. In one case I know of in Oregon, the people in question had been patrons for years, the cake they requested was not weird or out of place in the least, and the proprietors simply refused once they found out it was gay wedding, it had little to do with the cake. What is illegal is not providing services on the basis of sexual orientation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masterpie ... Commission

Here's a wiki with one of the landmark cases, you can see clearly that the owner admittedly simply refuses to make cakes for gay weddings, though he said they could buy anything else in the store. That is pretty textbook discrimination - "Here, you can't have this thing I will provide to everyone else because of who you are", additionally, according to the wiki, the initial encounter did not even involve a discussion of cake decoration, etc.

I agree that a business should be able to refuse to provide services in the case of being asked to support things they do not (the Nazi example is apropos there), but in some of these cases that is not what happened at all. What happened was some gay people ordered a cake and got turned down solely on the basis of being gay, not on the basis of what they requested, and that is the important part.

Now, cases where a business would be compelled to create a "gay cake" or "nazi cake" etc..of course, they should be able to refuse to create a product such as that, it would be interesting to know if some of the cases occupy this grey area.
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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:36 am

MiphamFan wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:47 pm
The Muslim butcher example is not that good.

Better example: Would you expect a Muslim baker to have to decorate a cake with LGBT slogans?

If yes, fine, you are at least consistent.

If not, then well...

Is there a case such as this? Where the decorations themselves were an issue? I think I have heard of one in Ireland, none of the one's i've looked at in the US have anything to do with decoration.
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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Dorje Shedrub » Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:50 am

I dont think that most people would support the right of a business to deny service to a person of color, rationalizing that it was due to their religious belief (historically, some people have used Christian scripture to support discrimination). Yet when it comes to serving LGBT individuals, many start speaking about religious rights.

If businesses can refuse service to LGBT individuals based on religious rights, what prevents doctors, hospitals, paramedics, etc. from denying service to them as well? It has happened before.

These are not minority entitlements - they are civil rights.

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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:55 am

Dorje Shedrub wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:50 am
I dont think that most people would support the right of a business to deny service to a person of color, rationalizing that it was due to their religious belief (historically, some people have used Christian scripture to support discrimination). Yet when it comes to serving LGBT individuals, many start speaking about religious rights.

If businesses can refuse service to LGBT individuals based on religious rights, what prevents doctors, hospitals, paramedics, etc. from denying service to them as well? It has happened before.

These are not minority entitlements - they are civil rights.

DS
It is a bit more complex than that with LGBT issues and the cake thing in particular.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... y-cake-row

If you read this piece you will see that this cake maker was forced to make a cake supporting gay marriage.

Now, I don't think it's going to kill them, but once we get down to telling people that they must create a cake with a certain message on it, it becomes murkier. This ruling seems questionable to me, in light of the "Nazi cake" example from earlier.

With most of the cases i've looked at though, yes, they were just blatant discrimination - "I won't do this for you because you're gay and my religion says it's wrong"...that is not a business decision, and in my opinion it is indeed discriminatory behavior.
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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Dorje Shedrub » Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:54 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:55 am

It is a bit more complex than that with LGBT issues and the cake thing in particular.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... y-cake-row

If you read this piece you will see that this cake maker was forced to make a cake supporting gay marriage.

Now, I don't think it's going to kill them, but once we get down to telling people that they must create a cake with a certain message on it, it becomes murkier. This ruling seems questionable to me, in light of the "Nazi cake" example from earlier.

With most of the cases i've looked at though, yes, they were just blatant discrimination - "I won't do this for you because you're gay and my religion says it's wrong"...that is not a business decision, and in my opinion it is indeed discriminatory behavior.
I had not heard about that case. I dont think making the cake is supporting gay marriage, but it seems the issue was about the message and not the fact that the clients are gay. Over here in the US most of the cases are about the client's sexual orientation.

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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Karma Dorje » Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:09 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:22 am
I agree that a business should be able to refuse to provide services in the case of being asked to support things they do not (the Nazi example is apropos there), but in some of these cases that is not what happened at all. What happened was some gay people ordered a cake and got turned down solely on the basis of being gay, not on the basis of what they requested, and that is the important part.

Now, cases where a business would be compelled to create a "gay cake" or "nazi cake" etc..of course, they should be able to refuse to create a product such as that, it would be interesting to know if some of the cases occupy this grey area.
There are already laws against hate speech that preclude someone being required to put hateful messages on a cake. If same sex marriage is the law of the land, these selective Christians should take to heart Matthew 22:21.
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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:14 am

Karma Dorje wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:09 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:22 am
I agree that a business should be able to refuse to provide services in the case of being asked to support things they do not (the Nazi example is apropos there), but in some of these cases that is not what happened at all. What happened was some gay people ordered a cake and got turned down solely on the basis of being gay, not on the basis of what they requested, and that is the important part.

Now, cases where a business would be compelled to create a "gay cake" or "nazi cake" etc..of course, they should be able to refuse to create a product such as that, it would be interesting to know if some of the cases occupy this grey area.
There are already laws against hate speech that preclude someone being required to put hateful messages on a cake. If same sex marriage is the law of the land, these selective Christians should take to heart Matthew 22:21.

Being married to an attorney, I can tell you it is not so simple in practice. As a timely example, what if someone refused to make a cake with a confederate flag? Rightly or wrongly, there are people who are not "Nazis" in any sense (though they may be ignorant on some level) who might want a cake with this flag let's say captioned something innocuous and non-racist like "Yay for southern boys". or something Legal precedent is a tricky thing, acting like this is some open and shut subject matter does not do the reality of it justice at all.
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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Dan74 » Sun Jul 01, 2018 6:54 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:04 pm
Dan74 wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:31 pm
If I have a cake shop here in Switzerland and a local SVP guy comes in and orders a cake that says "monkeys belong in the jungle. Eritreans go back!" I want my frak right to tell him what I think of that rather than be compelled to oblige or give up my livelihood.
Again this is a false equivalence. Again what is being ignored here is power. Is there systematic discrimination against members of the SVP in Switzerland so they cannot express and fulfill their basic human feelings and needs? Are they part of a historically oppressed and persecuted group in Switzerland?
True. But suppose I live in a town which is run by a Socialist local government (say Biel, only a stone throw away). People of African descent are very prominent, especially Eritreans, and SVP supporters are not only in the minority, they are routinely harrassed, their offices firebombed etc. Their concerns about the town not coping with its refuge intake, the schools full of kids who don't speak German, the welfare system crumbling etc are routinely ignored and they are told to go live somewhere else. Do your power narratives still stand? Is it a matter of history? Like if it's only been going on 10 years, that's not long enough. I still wouldn't make the cake though.

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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by egon » Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:52 am

Here's my bleeding-heart-liberal take on this issue, as it relates to the USA (I'm not familiar enough with other cultures to make any assertions about them):

- IMO, any religious dogma which includes damnation or any other synonymous dehumanization of people based on: sexual or gender orientation, race, ethnicity, or adherence to a different religion; is inherently unethical. Protecting, and perpetuating the normalization of, certain expressions of these beliefs damages our society just as much as protecting non-religious expressions of the same dehumanization.
- As such, protecting a public service-provider's right to refuse service based on any of the above mentioned criteria is unethical and should not happen.
- If a person holds a religious belief that causes them to be unable to provide services to any people based on the above mentioned criteria, then that person should not open a public service-providing business.
- Although the service provider should not be able to refuse service based on these criteria, a level of expression of vulgarity could be allowed to be refused. Most people can recognize the difference between what is vulgar and what isn't. If that comes into question, the lawyers can handle it.

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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Dan74 » Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:04 am

Egon, I don't think many people would argue with that.in Australia there is legislation to protect people against discrimination and vilification based on these criteria (and a few others). Generally seems to work.

There was one case when an afterhours pharmacist refused to provide a morning-after pill due to her religious beliefs.

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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Grigoris » Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:04 am

Dan74 wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 6:54 am
Do your power narratives still stand?
Even the Nazis had problems maintaining power and control in the Warsaw Ghetto, that's why they razed it.

Those damn violent Jews! They are exactly the same as the Nazis they are fighting. :crazy:
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"My religion is not deceiving myself."
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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