Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

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Grigoris
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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:14 am

Dan74 wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:40 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:28 pm
Dan74 wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:21 pm
As for my example, well, maybe have a look at the Birmingham mass sexual abuse scandal. Overzealous progressives have it on their hands, where even the police were afraid of doing their job properly. This is of of many disasters that are symptomatic of the loss of perspective and common sense in the Culture Wars.
When was the last time you heard a progressive argue in support of rape? Most progressives I know tend to be Feminists.
Umm.. that's a little superficial, no?
As superficial as saying that all progressives are rape enablers.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by amanitamusc » Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:38 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:53 am
Dan74 wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:31 pm
But some progressives still think the blackshirts are marching in the streets.. Well maybe in Greece they are.
Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria, Ukraine, Turkey, etc...

In Austria, they are even the ruling party.
Do you see Germany moving in that blackshirt direction?

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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:13 am

amanitamusc wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:38 am
Grigoris wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:53 am
Dan74 wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:31 pm
But some progressives still think the blackshirts are marching in the streets.. Well maybe in Greece they are.
Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria, Ukraine, Turkey, etc...

In Austria, they are even the ruling party.
Do you see Germany moving in that blackshirt direction?
Not for a while. Luckily Germany has some checks in place, the rest of the examples (bar Turkey and Austria) are a reaction to decades of enforced "Communism" and the economic liberalism following it's collapse.

Turkey has had a strong national socialist movement since it's inception as a state.

Austria... Well... We all know Austria's history, don't we? ;)
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Dan74 » Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:54 am

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:14 am
Dan74 wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:40 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:28 pm
When was the last time you heard a progressive argue in support of rape? Most progressives I know tend to be Feminists.
Umm.. that's a little superficial, no?
As superficial as saying that all progressives are rape enablers.
First, Correction - Rotherham, not Birmingham (thanks, Mantrik): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham ... on_scandal

Greg, I never said that. I pointed the loss of perspective. That was what made the tragedy possible, the climate in which even bringing up certain things was anathema. But I was hoping you'd do your own homework there. The point was and is that the progressive left has made a right mess of things in the Anglophone sphere and most other places (not that the Right haven't). One just expects more from one's own, so to speak.

Listen, man, an honest question you don't have to answer. How much is this about winning for you, how much is about engaging and learning from others? I know I often express myself in a terse and hard to parse manner and you're one of the ones who've convinced me of that, so in regards to my posts, I don't blame you. But still...? You kinda seem to be handing down your wisdom from up high screw what anyone else thinks, you know? But as a psychologist and a Buddhist I am sure you are capable of pausing and looking within to check.

PS About Austria, that was too glib, mate, the Hitler gibe, I assume. Hitler lived in Germany most of his life and Germany was the birthplace of NSPD. So was it a racial thing you were implying, a country that birthed Hitler??? I don't know Austria but from what I read much of the country is very conservative Catholic and much is mixed and cosmopolitan. You remember the old Austro-Hungarian Empire, right? Is it a power thing again, 'cause they gave us Hitler and they are white, it's OK to treat them in this shabby racist manner. I might be totally misreading you here... so just put me straight.
Last edited by Dan74 on Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:30 am

Dan74 wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:54 am
Greg, I never said that. I said that the loss of perspective made the tragedy possible, the climate in which even bringing up certain things was anathema.
Somehow, I think there were a lot more factors involved than a loss of perspective. A lot more.
Listen, man, an honest question you don't have to answer. How much is this about winning for you, how much is about engaging and learning from others? I know I often express myself in a terse and hard to parse manner and you're one of the ones who've convinced me of that, so in regards to my posts, I don't blame you. But still...? You kinda seem to be handing down your wisdom from up high screw what anyone else thinks, you know?
Shouldn't this be a question posed in private?
PS About Austria, that was too glib, mate, the Hitler gibe, I assume. Hitler lived in Germany most of his life and Germany was the birthplace of NSPD. So was it a racial thing you were implying, a country that birthed Hitler??? I don't know Austria but from what I read much of the country is very conservative Catholic and much is mixed and cosmopolitan. You remember the old Austro-Hungarian Empire, right? Is it a power thing again, 'cause they gave us Hitler and they are white, it's OK to treat them in this shabby racist manner. I might be totally misreading you here... so just put me straight.
Dude, it was partly humorous. Partly...

Did I happen to mention that I think that race is a completely false construct, that I don't judge individuals based on race? Anyway...

But we are talking about countries now, in which case one has to apply generalisations, otherwise how is somebody meant to have a discussion?

I do not reduce every single issue to the individual. Again: I am not a Post-Modernist, I think in terms of class, gender, etc...

Now, you may ask: "But why do you not think in terms of race then?" Manly because there is only one race, the human race. The term has been appropriated from science and mis-defined in order to suit political agendas.

But, back to topic:

I have actually met quite a few Austrians that were damn fine people. But that still does not ameliorate the fact that they have a far-Right government in power (that also currently holds the presidency of the European Union) AND (like it or lump it) Austrians have a history of autocratism. Don't forget that Germany had a large and powerful Communist movement, before it was crushed, unlike Austria...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:31 am

PS Add Italy to the list too.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Dan74 » Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:37 am

You're right. I apologise for posting that question in public.

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Malcolm
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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:40 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:51 am
Personally I think there isn't necessarily an automatic agreement between traditional Buddhism and Western liberal and libertarian philosophies. Identity politics itself, I would have thought, be hard to reconcile with Buddhist values. After all Buddhism originated as a renunciate philosophy, so the notion of a 'constructed social identity' would not naturally align with that, as it is presumably amongst the things that is to be renounced.
And yet, Buddha appears to have spearheaded a movement that among other things, cast down brahmins. So there is a social and class aspect to Buddhism that cannot be ignored. There is clear evidence in the Hinayana canon of class prejudice and Buddha's negative reaction to it.

It's just that in the context of modern Western culture, Buddhism often appears as an alternative or counter-cultural movement, so naturally finds itself aligned with liberal and libertarian politics in the West, but I think traditional Buddhism could easily be more inclined much more towards social conservatism - as it sometimes is, for instance, in Japanese politics.
Buddhadharma is about liberation, all kinds of liberation, since all kinds of liberation require giving up some measure of affliction, whether towards, class, race, rank, etc. Hence Buddhadharma is inherently liberal. Historically, it also flourished most widely in the merchant castes. Modern Liberalism was an expression of the drive to political power of the disenfranchised bourgeoise in Europe.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:44 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:40 pm
Buddhadharma is about liberation, all kinds of liberation, since all kinds of liberation require giving up some measure of affliction, whether towards, class, race, rank, etc. Hence Buddhadharma is inherently liberal. Historically, it also flourished most widely in the merchant castes. Modern Liberalism was an expression of the drive to political power of the disenfranchised bourgeoise in Europe.
People define liberation in all sorts of ways though. National Socialists consider themselves liberators, albeit of the master race.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:09 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:44 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:40 pm
Buddhadharma is about liberation, all kinds of liberation, since all kinds of liberation require giving up some measure of affliction, whether towards, class, race, rank, etc. Hence Buddhadharma is inherently liberal. Historically, it also flourished most widely in the merchant castes. Modern Liberalism was an expression of the drive to political power of the disenfranchised bourgeoise in Europe.
People define liberation in all sorts of ways though. National Socialists consider themselves liberators, albeit of the master race.
"since all kinds of liberation require giving up some measure of affliction"
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by PSM » Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:47 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:28 pm
Dan74 wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:21 pm
As for my example, well, maybe have a look at the Birmingham mass sexual abuse scandal. Overzealous progressives have it on their hands, where even the police were afraid of doing their job properly. This is of of many disasters that are symptomatic of the loss of perspective and common sense in the Culture Wars.
When was the last time you heard a progressive argue in support of rape? Most progressives I know tend to be Feminists.
Yet the rape of over 1400 girls in one town alone was the consequence of decisions made by mainly members of a Labour council as well as progressively minded decison makes within social services, media and the police. You should look at the Jay Report to understand some of the dynamics of the situation if you want to understand what Dan was correctly pointing at.
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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:01 pm

PSM wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:47 pm
Yet the rape of over 1400 girls in one town alone was the consequence of decisions made by mainly members of a Labour council as well as progressively minded decison makes within social services, media and the police.
Ummmmm... I do believe the rapists had something to do with it?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by PSM » Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:07 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:01 pm
PSM wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:47 pm
Yet the rape of over 1400 girls in one town alone was the consequence of decisions made by mainly members of a Labour council as well as progressively minded decison makes within social services, media and the police.
Ummmmm... I do believe the rapists had something to do with it?
Yes. But it was known about by the authorities, mainly run by the Labour party, for a decade but they did little more than absolutely nothing.
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"We don't want to feel the weirdness of life." - James Low

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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Norwegian » Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:15 pm

PSM wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:07 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:01 pm
PSM wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:47 pm
Yet the rape of over 1400 girls in one town alone was the consequence of decisions made by mainly members of a Labour council as well as progressively minded decison makes within social services, media and the police.
Ummmmm... I do believe the rapists had something to do with it?
Yes. But it was known about by the authorities, mainly run by the Labour party, for a decade but they did little more than absolutely nothing.
Exactly. Which means the decade+ long abuse was enabled by the authorities and people in other positions like social services, etc. That's also why this is a scandal of massive proportions, that people who could do something about it chose not to.

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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by PSM » Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:21 pm

And it's still ongoing. It's also something which was going on at least in the 80s, mainly affecting the British Sikh and Hindu communities. See, for example, the work by The Sikh Awareness Society.
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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by kirtu » Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:28 pm

amanitamusc wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:38 am
Grigoris wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:53 am
Dan74 wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:31 pm
But some progressives still think the blackshirts are marching in the streets.. Well maybe in Greece they are.
Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria, Ukraine, Turkey, etc...

In Austria, they are even the ruling party.
Do you see Germany moving in that blackshirt direction?
The AfD and the *open* increase in neo-Nazi rally's as well as the increase in xenophobic activity and some neo-Nazi terrorism (NSU and other groups). I have cautioned my ex (who is brown and does not read German and still usually speaks English in Germany) to avoid certain parts of Germany. He and his husband vacation every year in winter just down the road from a neo-Nazi stronghold so I made them aware of it.

Most of this activity could be dismissed as merely warenting monitoring but the rise of the AfD is frightening. I have a DW and FB friend from a small town about 20 km south of where I lived in Germany as an adult. She is also a Buddhist and used to be on the sister board. She is constantly posting about immigrants and non-white Germans raping and murdering German women and the supposed no-go zones in German cities. The no-go zones are largely an exaggeration . The rapes and murders are real but their frequency are exaggerated and they are used to conclude that every immigrant male is a mortal enemy of civilization. Just like the Nazi's used to do. And, BTW, this kind of propaganda has American readers too. A teacher at a school I work at much of the school year spoke to me about incidents like these prior to the 2016 election and resisted hearing me when I told him he was listening to right-wing lies (for example, he claimed that there were numerous riots by immigrant males in Germany and the police refused to report these incidents but the evidence was ll over YouTube).

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by kirtu » Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:00 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:13 am
Austria... Well... We all know Austria's history, don't we? ;)
I'm afraid most people don't. Austria elected a fascist Chancellor (who didn't appear to be fascist when he was elected) who was then assasinated by an illegal rival Nazi group supported by their sister party in Germany where an Austrian Nazi had been appointed Chancellor. This successor to the Austrian Austrian assasinated Chancellor kept the Austrian fascist policies in place but was unable to keep Austria independent. At the time the tide of Pan-Germanism was just too strong and the German Austrian Pied Piper Chancellor was able to annex Austria. An important point is that Austria was faced with severe economic conditions and numerous paramilitary groups who were also committed to an authoritarian state.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by kirtu » Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:59 pm

Quay wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:38 am
kirtu wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:36 am
... Most of the US can legally refuse to provide goods and services to LBGTQ people....
Yes it can an often does. I live in one of those states where it is perfectly legal to do so and have been the victim of such discrimination in more than one setting, including a medical one at a hospital. It's completely tragic how some lives are seen as worth less than others by some people.
Which is one reason why I will be voting with my feet in a few years. The US is at its core a socially fascist nation and will be so through my lifetime.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Malcolm
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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:53 pm

kirtu wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:59 pm
Quay wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:38 am
kirtu wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:36 am
... Most of the US can legally refuse to provide goods and services to LBGTQ people....
Yes it can an often does. I live in one of those states where it is perfectly legal to do so and have been the victim of such discrimination in more than one setting, including a medical one at a hospital. It's completely tragic how some lives are seen as worth less than others by some people.
Which is one reason why I will be voting with my feet in a few years. The US is at its core a socially fascist nation and will be so through my lifetime.

Kirt
Kirt, the white demographic is on the decline.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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kirtu
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Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?

Post by kirtu » Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:28 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:53 pm
kirtu wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:59 pm
Quay wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:38 am


Yes it can an often does. I live in one of those states where it is perfectly legal to do so and have been the victim of such discrimination in more than one setting, including a medical one at a hospital. It's completely tragic how some lives are seen as worth less than others by some people.
Which is one reason why I will be voting with my feet in a few years. The US is at its core a socially fascist nation and will be so through my lifetime.

Kirt
Kirt, the white demographic is on the decline.
Which certainly wins the non sequitur award.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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