Non Buddhist enlightenment

Casual conversation between friends. Anything goes (almost).
Dgj
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:34 pm

Non Buddhist enlightenment

Post by Dgj » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:00 pm

Found an interesting blog. The authors seem to be talking about familiar concepts but do not actually mention Buddhism at all. Seems a bit like Zen to me but that may be me seeing a secular thing through religious lenses. https://youarealreadyenlightened.com.
I wish I knew what I was talking about but, let's face it, I probably don't.

Tenma
Posts: 682
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:25 am

Re: Non Buddhist enlightenment

Post by Tenma » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:26 pm

Dgj wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:00 pm
Found an interesting blog. The authors seem to be talking about familiar concepts but do not actually mention Buddhism at all. Seems a bit like Zen to me but that may be me seeing a secular thing through religious lenses. https://youarealreadyenlightened.com.
There are pratyekabuddhas:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratyekabuddha

Dgj
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:34 pm

Re: Non Buddhist enlightenment

Post by Dgj » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:38 pm

Tenma wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:26 pm
Dgj wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:00 pm
Found an interesting blog. The authors seem to be talking about familiar concepts but do not actually mention Buddhism at all. Seems a bit like Zen to me but that may be me seeing a secular thing through religious lenses. https://youarealreadyenlightened.com.
There are pratyekabuddhas:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratyekabuddha
Fascinating, thanks! Reading it sounds like a very ancient concept.
I wish I knew what I was talking about but, let's face it, I probably don't.

User avatar
anjali
Global Moderator
Posts: 1535
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:33 pm

Re: Non Buddhist enlightenment

Post by anjali » Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:48 am

Dgj wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:00 pm
Found an interesting blog. The authors seem to be talking about familiar concepts but do not actually mention Buddhism at all. Seems a bit like Zen to me but that may be me seeing a secular thing through religious lenses. https://youarealreadyenlightened.com.
For me, the site is TL;DR. Are there any particular quotes from the site you want to discuss from a Buddhist perspective?
Image

Dharma Wheel Terms of Service and Reporting Procedures.
Wherever there is a human being, there is an opportunity for kindness. –-Seneca

muni
Posts: 4530
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: Non Buddhist enlightenment

Post by muni » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:38 am

we work very hard to keep up our delusions of being unenlightened, and slacking off in this demanding job is the easiest way to see the truth! The more you

relax

and stop working on the illusion that you have concerns, the more you will see your true self.
“ Only the development of compassion and understanding for others can bring us the tranquility and happiness we all seek. ”
H H Dalai Lama

"Relax." nirvana-samsara do not stray from spaciousness.

Simon E.
Posts: 5625
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Non Buddhist enlightenment

Post by Simon E. » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:19 am

Dgj wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:00 pm
Found an interesting blog. The authors seem to be talking about familiar concepts but do not actually mention Buddhism at all. Seems a bit like Zen to me but that may be me seeing a secular thing through religious lenses. https://youarealreadyenlightened.com.
So apparently we have a 'true self'?

That will be news to most students of Buddhadharma. 'Non- Buddhist' indeed.
Enlightenment?
That's a whole other subject.
Gone fishin' :smile:

User avatar
seeker242
Posts: 1329
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:50 pm
Location: South Florida, USA

Re: Non Buddhist enlightenment

Post by seeker242 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:54 am

Simon E. wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:19 am
Dgj wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:00 pm
Found an interesting blog. The authors seem to be talking about familiar concepts but do not actually mention Buddhism at all. Seems a bit like Zen to me but that may be me seeing a secular thing through religious lenses. https://youarealreadyenlightened.com.
So apparently we have a 'true self'?

That will be news to most students of Buddhadharma.
Not news to zen students. True self has been taught since the beginning.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

Simon E.
Posts: 5625
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Non Buddhist enlightenment

Post by Simon E. » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:04 pm

Really? And that is a universal teaching in Zen?

I am astonished.


But then, I know nothing of Zen.

Astus? Meido?

:popcorn:
Gone fishin' :smile:

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1701
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: Non Buddhist enlightenment

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:40 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:04 pm
Really? And that is a universal teaching in Zen?

I am astonished.


But then, I know nothing of Zen.

Astus? Meido?

:popcorn:
Venerable Dharmakṣema's long parinirvāṇa vaipulya intersects with this, and it hugely influential in East Asian "true self" style Buddhist discourses. It has the audacity to label the tathāgatagarbha as ātman.
नस्वातो नापिपरतो नद्वाभ्यां नाप्यहेतुतः उत्पन्ना जातु विद्यन्ते भावाः क्वचन केचन
There absolutely are no things, nowhere and none, that arise anew, neither out of themselves, nor out of non-self, nor out of both, nor at random.
सर्वं तथ्यं न वा तथ्यं तथ्यं चातथ्यम् एव च नैवातथ्यं नैव तथ्यम् एतद् बुद्धानुशासनम्
All is so, or all is not so, both so and not so, neither so nor not so. This is the Buddha's teaching.

一切實非實亦實亦非實
非實非非實是名諸佛法

Simon E.
Posts: 5625
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Non Buddhist enlightenment

Post by Simon E. » Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:41 pm

Go on....

When you say hugely influential how widespread is this view in eastern Buddhism? And how does that sit with Rinzai or Soto teachings?
Gone fishin' :smile:

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1701
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: Non Buddhist enlightenment

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:07 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:41 pm
Go on....

When you say hugely influential how widespread is this view in eastern Buddhism? And how does that sit with Rinzai or Soto teachings?
It's like shentong-rangtong in Tibetan Buddhism.

Obviously this is me talking out my ass so take it for what it is.

East Asian Buddhism sits at a delicate intersection of uncaveated quasi-vedantist tathāgatagarbha doctrines "checked" so-to-speak with Madhyamaka negations. Some people's Madhyamaka isn't what it should be, and these teachings about shared fundamental essencelessness become less and less empty of hidden internal essence.

O, sons and daughters.

Imagine a single voluminous great scripture.

It is as if that scripture is like the threefold world itself, like the threefold world all entirely without exception, from Lord Indra's palace to to the meditation heavens, all remembered and recorded.

[cutting out a huge list of everything in scripture]

It is as if these things and more of the threefold world are in the voluminous great scripture, all recorded.

It is as if this great rolled scroll is compacted into one extremely minute atom. And it is as if it is inside all atoms, each and every one, also. Eventually there is a hero who goes forth to flourish in a generation. Wise, acute, able to accomplish the goal, with clear divine sight. He regards this scripture bound inside of atoms. He speaks aloud like this:

"Why in this way is the voluminous great scripture bound inside atoms and not unbound for the benefit of all sentient beings? I will muster great perseverance and power to break these atoms and send forth the scripture, so that it may be for the benefit of all sentient beings."

Then that man promptly musters power. He breaks the atoms sending forth the scripture for the benefit of all sentient beings.

O, sons and daughters. The Thus-Gone's wisdom. The signless wisdom. The unobstructed wisdom. It perfectly dwells within all sentient beings’ minds. Yet in ignorance, sentient beings err and think it covered. Not knowing, not seeing, not giving rise to faith.
(Āryamaitreyanāthasyottarekayānaratnagotraśāstra, T1611.827a16)

In the above, the 'signless wisdom' of the tathāgata which, unobstructed, indwells in the minds of sentient beings, it this the knowledge of an ineffable secret and unseen 'thing'? That is a rhetorical question, though.
Simon E. wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:41 pm
And how does that sit with Rinzai or Soto teachings?
I wouldn't actually know.

I can offer you a contrived platitude that someone offered me once though. They said that when there is no self, the "true self" is just "truth", no self.
नस्वातो नापिपरतो नद्वाभ्यां नाप्यहेतुतः उत्पन्ना जातु विद्यन्ते भावाः क्वचन केचन
There absolutely are no things, nowhere and none, that arise anew, neither out of themselves, nor out of non-self, nor out of both, nor at random.
सर्वं तथ्यं न वा तथ्यं तथ्यं चातथ्यम् एव च नैवातथ्यं नैव तथ्यम् एतद् बुद्धानुशासनम्
All is so, or all is not so, both so and not so, neither so nor not so. This is the Buddha's teaching.

一切實非實亦實亦非實
非實非非實是名諸佛法

Simon E.
Posts: 5625
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Non Buddhist enlightenment

Post by Simon E. » Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:22 pm

Interesting, thank you.
As you say there is a parallel debate within the Vajrayana. I am not sure it is coached in quite the terms though. One hears little of 'true' or 'real' selves save to negate such concepts.
I have never seen a successful attempt that marries the idea of a 'true self' with that of Shunyata.
Identifying that 'self' with a supposed individual portion of Shunyata runs into the sand pretty quickly..
Gone fishin' :smile:

User avatar
Meido
Posts: 467
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 2:50 am
Contact:

Re: Non Buddhist enlightenment

Post by Meido » Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:56 pm

Practically speaking, "true self" or "true nature" in Zen simply describe experiential grasp of what is meant by non-self (muga).

In other words, much ado about nothing.

Hakuin (Shibayama translation):

All beings are primarily Buddhas.
Like water and ice,
There is no ice apart from water;
There are no Buddhas apart from beings.
Not knowing how close the Truth is to them,
Beings seek for it afar–what a pity!
It is like those who being in water
Cry out for water, feeling thirst.
It is like the rich man’s son,
Who has lost his way among the poor.
The reason why beings transmigrate through the six worlds,
Is because they are lost in the darkness of ignorance.
Wandering from darkness to darkness,
How can they ever be free from birth-and-death?
As to Zazen taught in the Mahayana,
No amount of praise can exhaust its merits.
The Six Paramitas, beginning with the Giving,
Observing the Precepts and other good deeds, variously enumerated,
As Nembutsu, Repentance, and so on–
All are finally reducible to Zazen.
The merit of even a single sitting in Zazen
Erases the countless sins accumulated in the past.
Where then are there the evil paths to misguide us?
The Pure Land cannot be far away.
Those who, even once, in all humility,
Listen to this Truth.
Praise it and faithfully follow it,
Will be endowed with innumerable merits.
But if you turn your eyes within yourselves
And testify to the truth of Self-nature–
The Self-nature that is no-nature,
You will have gone beyond the ken of sophistry.
The gate of the oneness of cause and effect is opened;
The path of non-duality and non-trinity runs straight ahead.
Your form being the form of no-form,
Your going-and-returning takes place nowhere but where your are;
Your thought being the thought of no-thought,
Your singing and dancing is none other than the voice of Dharma.
How boundless and free is the sky of Samadhi!
How refreshingly bright, the moon of the Fourfold Wisdom!
At this moment what is there that you lack!
Nirvana presents itself before you,
Where you stand is the Land of Purity.
Your person, the body of Buddha.
It is relatively easy to accomplish the important matter of insight into one’s true nature, but uncommonly difficult to function freely and clearly [according to this understanding], in motion and in rest, in good and in adverse circumstances. Please make strenuous and vigorous efforts towards this end, otherwise all the teachings of Buddhas and patriarchs become mere empty words. - Torei

The Rinzai Zen Way: A Guide to Practice

Korinji Rinzai Zen Monastery [臨済宗 • 祖的山光林禅寺] - http://www.korinji.org

Dgj
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:34 pm

Re: Non Buddhist enlightenment

Post by Dgj » Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:11 pm

Meido wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:56 pm
"True self" or "true nature" in Zen simply describe experiential grasp of what is meant by non-self (muga).

In other words, much ado about nothing.

Hakuin (Waddell translation):

All beings by nature are Buddha,
As ice by nature is water.
Apart from water there is no ice;
Apart from beings, no Buddha.
How sad that people ignore the near
And search for truth afar:
Like someone in the midst of water
Crying out in thirst,
Like a child of a wealthy home
Wandering among the poor.
Lost on dark paths of ignorance,
We wander through the Six Worlds,
From dark path to dark path--
When shall we be freed from birth and death?

Oh, the zazen of the Mahayana!
To this the highest praise!
Devotion, repentance, training,
The many paramitas--
All have their source in zazen.

Those who try zazen even once
Wipe away beginning-less crimes.
Where are all the dark paths then?
The Pure Land itself is near.

Those who hear this truth even once
And listen with a grateful heart,
Treasuring it, revering it,
Gain blessings without end.
Much more, those who turn about
And bear witness to self-nature,
Self-nature that is no-nature,
Go far beyond mere doctrine.
Here effect and cause are the same,
The Way is neither two nor three.
With form that is no-form,
Going and coming, we are never astray,
With thought that is no-thought,
Singing and dancing are the voice of the Law.

Boundless and free is the sky of samadhi!
Bright the full moon of wisdom!
Truly, is anything missing now?
Nirvana is right here, before our eyes,
This very place is the Lotus Land,
This very body, the Buddha.
That is the way I understand (what little i understand of Buddhism at all lololol!. this is where i saw a Zen type sound on that site:
the state of being in which one assumes no permanent self and has an innate assumption of cessation and temporariness.
True nature is no nature and the true self is no self. Sounds paradoxical but you already know it’s true
but again This may be me seeing a totlly unrelated idea through my own dharmagoggles because from the posts I read nothing is said of Buddhism. To be fair I didnt read much and am guilty of skimming rather than reading every word lol
I wish I knew what I was talking about but, let's face it, I probably don't.

User avatar
seeker242
Posts: 1329
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:50 pm
Location: South Florida, USA

Re: Non Buddhist enlightenment

Post by seeker242 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:27 pm

Dgj wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:11 pm

True nature is no nature and the true self is no self. Sounds paradoxical but you already know it’s true
but again This may be me seeing a totlly unrelated idea through my own dharmagoggles because from the posts I read nothing is said of Buddhism. To be fair I didnt read much and am guilty of skimming rather than reading every word lol
It's definitly has a zen flavor. That quote sounds like it is right out of Hakuin's Song of Zazen. :smile:

And if we turn inward and prove our True Nature, that
True Self is no-self, our own self is no-self, we go beyond ego and past clever words.
Then the gate to the oneness of cause-and-effect is thrown open.


Quite familiar! :meditate:

Edit: LOL, that was posted already, oh well :lol:
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

User avatar
Meido
Posts: 467
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 2:50 am
Contact:

Re: Non Buddhist enlightenment

Post by Meido » Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:44 pm

From what I've read in the "What is Enlighhtenment?" section of that blog it does not go beyond "clever words." With a large amount of nonsense.

While perhaps well-intentioned, there is often a great irony to be seen in these cases of people creating their own systems by cherry-picking from traditions like Advaita, Zen, Dzogchen, etc: they talk on and on about transcending so-called self or ego, yet in their refusal to actually seek out guidance from legitimate teachers of those traditions, they in fact demonstrate tremendous egoism of a deeply entrenched and profoundly stubborn kind.
It is relatively easy to accomplish the important matter of insight into one’s true nature, but uncommonly difficult to function freely and clearly [according to this understanding], in motion and in rest, in good and in adverse circumstances. Please make strenuous and vigorous efforts towards this end, otherwise all the teachings of Buddhas and patriarchs become mere empty words. - Torei

The Rinzai Zen Way: A Guide to Practice

Korinji Rinzai Zen Monastery [臨済宗 • 祖的山光林禅寺] - http://www.korinji.org

Simon E.
Posts: 5625
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Non Buddhist enlightenment

Post by Simon E. » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:42 pm

Meido wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:44 pm
From what I've read in the "What is Enlighhtenment?" section of that blog it does not go beyond "clever words." With a large amount of nonsense.

While perhaps well-intentioned, there is often a great irony to be seen in these cases of people creating their own systems by cherry-picking from traditions like Advaita, Zen, Dzogchen, etc: they talk on and on about transcending so-called self or ego, yet in their refusal to actually seek out guidance from legitimate teachers of those traditions, they in fact demonstrate tremendous egoism of a deeply entrenched and profoundly stubborn kind.
This! :namaste:

And all the easier for us in this age of readily available books and videos to cobble together a DIY Dharma. And with no flesh and blood teacher to correct our departure from authenticity an inch off at the beginning quickly becomes a mile.
Gone fishin' :smile:

kausalya
Posts: 186
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:52 pm

Re: Non Buddhist enlightenment

Post by kausalya » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:59 pm

Enlightenment isn't Buddhist to begin with: it's just that Buddhism represents a well-tested and methodical path to get there, unlike what may be found elsewhere :)
"Open sky does not abide, nor do sentient beings."

boda
Posts: 1910
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 8:40 pm

Re: Non Buddhist enlightenment

Post by boda » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:06 pm

Meido wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:44 pm
From what I've read in the "What is Enlighhtenment?" section of that blog it does not go beyond "clever words." With a large amount of nonsense.

While perhaps well-intentioned, there is often a great irony to be seen in these cases of people creating their own systems by cherry-picking from traditions like Advaita, Zen, Dzogchen, etc: they talk on and on about transcending so-called self or ego, yet in their refusal to actually seek out guidance from legitimate teachers of those traditions, they in fact demonstrate tremendous egoism of a deeply entrenched and profoundly stubborn kind.
I only skimmed through a few articles but I didn't get a sense of tremendous egoism. I would characterize it as practical and helpful. Didn't even seem like some sort of marketing ploy.

boda
Posts: 1910
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 8:40 pm

Re: Non Buddhist enlightenment

Post by boda » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:08 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:42 pm
Meido wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:44 pm
From what I've read in the "What is Enlighhtenment?" section of that blog it does not go beyond "clever words." With a large amount of nonsense.

While perhaps well-intentioned, there is often a great irony to be seen in these cases of people creating their own systems by cherry-picking from traditions like Advaita, Zen, Dzogchen, etc: they talk on and on about transcending so-called self or ego, yet in their refusal to actually seek out guidance from legitimate teachers of those traditions, they in fact demonstrate tremendous egoism of a deeply entrenched and profoundly stubborn kind.
This! :namaste:

And all the easier for us in this age of readily available books and videos to cobble together a DIY Dharma. And with no flesh and blood teacher to correct our departure from authenticity an inch off at the beginning quickly becomes a mile.
How exactly do you know the person behind the site has no authentic training?

Post Reply

Return to “Lounge”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: O_156, Rick and 49 guests