Scientists find primitive organisms possess cognition

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Simon E.
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Re: Scientists find primitive organisms possess cognition

Post by Simon E. » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:06 pm

I thought my deliberate grammatical error made it obvious that I was displaying levity.
But yes I ducked the chicken. Or chickened out over the duck.
On account of the fact that if we are to have a rerun of the Great Vegetarian Debate I would rather not be the instigator. :smile:
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Queequeg
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Re: Scientists find primitive organisms possess cognition

Post by Queequeg » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:33 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:06 pm
I thought my deliberate grammatical error made it obvious that I was displaying levity.
But yes I ducked the chicken. Or chickened out over the duck.
On account of the fact that if we are to have a rerun of the Great Vegetarian Debate I would rather not be the instigator. :smile:
I thought my deliberately ridiculous question made it obvious that I was displaying levity.

:smile:
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

Simon E.
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Re: Scientists find primitive organisms possess cognition

Post by Simon E. » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:35 pm

I think we are levitating in harmony.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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seeker242
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Re: Scientists find primitive organisms possess cognition

Post by seeker242 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:03 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:24 pm
You introduced a qualifier..i.e. 'complete'. I made no mention of one. Neither did I talk in terms of a problem. Nor did I mention beliefs. All those are constructs introduced into the discussion by you.
Ok. There aren’t any “huge implications” because no one actually thinks dietary purity is possible to begin with.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

Simon E.
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Re: Scientists find primitive organisms possess cognition

Post by Simon E. » Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:32 pm

Maybe the huge implications are of a different order.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Wayfarer
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Re: Scientists find primitive organisms possess cognition

Post by Wayfarer » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:31 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:08 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:46 am
The point being that Slime Mould Soup requires the death of beings with consciousness.
Of course Chicken Soup requires the death of beings with eyes.
So its much worserer.
So, would it somehow be morally better if we snuck up on the chicken and got it before it could see us?
I had the idea that was what eating eggs was about. :smile:
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki-roshi

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Wayfarer
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Re: Scientists find primitive organisms possess cognition

Post by Wayfarer » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:33 pm

Jesse wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:58 pm
Wayfarer wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:43 am
Worth recalling that the very simplest of organisms are worlds more complex than anything in the inorganic realm. The fundamental attribute of any organism is to seek homeostasis - which nothing in inorganic nature does. I believe that anything living is, on that grounds, ontologically distinct from non-living matter - a view which is almost universally rejected as being ‘vitalist’.
What we consider to be 'inorganic' matter, is very easily provable to be able to support life. Scientists have predicted silicon-based life probably exists somewhere in the universe for decades now. If so, it's easily conceivable for living beings to made of matter we consider to be inorganic, while on their planet certain matter we consider organic and alive, may not be so to them.

There are also some studies suggesting crystalline life could exist in some form, though it would likely be so alien, and unrelatable we probably wouldn't understand it at all, or even be able to 'gauge' it's intelligence or sentience.

The universe is so big, that thinking the way things are here is the standard format is a bit premature.
Yes, and also scientists LOVE the idea that they will, one day, be able to reverse-engineer, and then manufacture, living organisms. Someone once asked Craig Venter, who is the famous biologist that lead the private team that mapped the genome, if he didn't think there was something wrong with 'playing God'. 'We're not playing', he said.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki-roshi

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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Scientists find primitive organisms possess cognition

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:38 pm

Jesse wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:03 am
What you are explaining is basically a strategy, the basic behavior behind this strategy is still intelligent, the plant seeks self-preservation through a specific strategy to obtain what it needs to survive...
Yes, but my point is that the organism has a kind of "intentional awareness" of something that exists beyond its own existence, and there is no brain, no sense organs that we usually agree is a requirement for sensory interaction. This is really significant.
If a leaf falls into a stream, the force of a stream will make it move in a certain direction. There's no intention on behalf of the leaf to go swimming. It isn't even the intention of the leaf to fall off the tree. When leaves tilt towards light, this can possibly be attributed to a physical reaction, light causing certain cells to constrict or whatever, resulting in a forced movement of the leaf. So, there are of course plenty of examples where there is specific response to stimuli that can be shown to be purely physiological. But there are things like white blood cells attacking bacteria and viruses, that suggest something more...
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Wayfarer
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Re: Scientists find primitive organisms possess cognition

Post by Wayfarer » Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:43 pm

In his book, Guide for the Perplexed, economist and philosopher E F Schumacher [of Small is Beautiful fame] sketches a basic ontology as follows:
Schumacher realizes that the terms—life, consciousness and self-consciousness—are subject to misinterpretation so he suggests that the differences can best be expressed as an equation which can be written thus:

'Mineral' = m
'Plant' = m + x
'Animal' = m + x + y
'Human' = m + x + y + z
In his theory, these three factors (x, y and z) represent ontological discontinuities. He argues that the differences can be likened to differences in dimension; and from one perspective it could be argued that only humans have 'real' existence insofar as they possess the three dimensions of life, consciousness and self-consciousness. Schumacher uses this perspective to contrast with the materialistic scientism view, which argues that what is 'real' is inanimate matter, denying the realness of life, consciousness and self-consciousness, despite the fact each individual can verify those phenomena from their own experience.

He directs our attention to the fact that science has generally avoided seriously discussing these discontinuities, because they present such difficulties for strictly materialistic science, and they largely remain mysteries.

The origination of movement in each level is expressed like this:

Cause (Mineral kingdom)
Stimulus (Plant kingdom)
Motive (Animal kingdom)
Will (Humanity)
Wikipedia.

As he says, these discontinuities are generally not recognised by science, as science assumes a generally one-dimensional attitude, i.e. there is only one kind of fundamental substance, and it’s material, from which all of the other attributes are derived.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki-roshi

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