Who is America ?

Casual conversation between friends. Anything goes (almost).
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Grigoris
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Grigoris » Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:11 pm

Thing is though that Antifa are just childish, whereas these right-wing nuts are plain dangerous. Mainly because they are armed to the teeth too.

Take the recent Patriot Prayer rally. Police colluded with the neo-Nazis, allowing them to go to the protest armed (with firearms) while shaking down Antifa counter-protesters and arresting them for possession of non-existent weapons. They then proceeded to gas and beat the crap out of Antifa while leaving their neo-Nazi mates unperturbed.

In Greece the neo-Nazis used to blow off their pent-up sexual energy beating up migrants (killed a couple) and then one day decided to kill a Greek Antifa (knifed him to death). Then the Antifa got real serious and raided and shot-up a neo-Nazi gathering killing two people and seriously wounding a third.

It took the arrest of key neo-Nazis to stop an all out urban war happening in Athens.

How long is it going to be before one of these trigger-happy "silly men" or "buffoons" makes the mistake of shooting somebody and starting a civil war?

I remember a short time ago one of them pulled a gun and shot warning rounds in the ground in front of Antifa counter-protesters, so it is not going to be long before something REALLY stupid happens. And then things will no longer be funny at all...

And the first people to justify what will happen will be these "silly men" and "buffoons" and, of course, every intellectually-challenged American's favorite president...

lord-turner-donald-trump-is-a-racist-sexist-buffoon-and-a-threat-to-world-peace.jpg
lord-turner-donald-trump-is-a-racist-sexist-buffoon-and-a-threat-to-world-peace.jpg (50.56 KiB) Viewed 543 times
Remember: He endorsed the sexual predator in the Cohen video, so I am sure he will have no problem supporting the neo-Nazis when they start their killing rampage.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Queequeg
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Queequeg » Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:39 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:11 pm
Thing is though that Antifa are just childish, whereas these right-wing nuts are plain dangerous. Mainly because they are armed to the teeth too.

Take the recent Patriot Prayer rally. Police colluded with the neo-Nazis, allowing them to go to the protest armed (with firearms) while shaking down Antifa counter-protesters and arresting them for possession of non-existent weapons. They then proceeded to gas and beat the crap out of Antifa while leaving their neo-Nazi mates unperturbed.

In Greece the neo-Nazis used to blow off their pent-up sexual energy beating up migrants (killed a couple) and then one day decided to kill a Greek Antifa (knifed him to death). Then the Antifa got real serious and raided and shot-up a neo-Nazi gathering killing two people and seriously wounding a third.

It took the arrest of key neo-Nazis to stop an all out urban war happening in Athens.

How long is it going to be before one of these trigger-happy "silly men" or "buffoons" makes the mistake of shooting somebody and starting a civil war?

I remember a short time ago one of them pulled a gun and shot warning rounds in the ground in front of Antifa counter-protesters, so it is not going to be long before something REALLY stupid happens. And then things will no longer be funny at all...

And the first people to justify what will happen will be these "silly men" and "buffoons" and, of course, every intellectually-challenged American's favorite president...

Remember: He endorsed the sexual predator in the Cohen video, so I am sure he will have no problem supporting the neo-Nazis when they start their killing rampage.
You make good points.

That protest in Oregon this weekend definitely raises my concern level. Not like panic, but I'm taking note of this trend with serious apprehension. You are right that its just a matter of degrees before this erupts into real violence.

The way that law enforcement in many places tends to sympathize with the right, if not actually embodying the right, is scary.

Those buffoons though are not actually going to do anything... I am concerned that the things they say and do normalize dangerous ideas and encourage thugs to do things. The fact that the President is one of these buffoons is really a problem. Usually, we at least have a president who will make a statement condemning this stuff. We don't have that now and instead we have a guy who instigates this stuff for... I'm still not sure what this guy's angle actually is other than self-enrichment.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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TharpaChodron
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by TharpaChodron » Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:17 am

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:32 pm
TharpaChodron wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:14 pm
Most rabid atheists aren't that funny, imo.
Ever tried talking to a rabid Buddhist? Barrel of friggin' laughs, I tell yeah!
True true, I've come across some "Buddhist Nazis" no fun at all. Now "Bu-Jews," i.e. Jewish Buddhists, of which there are many in the US, are typically funny as hell. Probably comes off as un-PC to say it, but I believe a Bu-Jew told me that term. There's actually a few jokes in regards to them, which I'm dying to hear again. Such as the Koan about the Lotus in my Driveway, lol. :tongue:

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Malcolm
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:25 am

The difference is that Antifa want to protect people, where as Nazis get off on hurting people
Grigoris wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:11 pm
Thing is though that Antifa are just childish, whereas these right-wing nuts are plain dangerous. Mainly because they are armed to the teeth too.

Take the recent Patriot Prayer rally. Police colluded with the neo-Nazis, allowing them to go to the protest armed (with firearms) while shaking down Antifa counter-protesters and arresting them for possession of non-existent weapons. They then proceeded to gas and beat the crap out of Antifa while leaving their neo-Nazi mates unperturbed.

In Greece the neo-Nazis used to blow off their pent-up sexual energy beating up migrants (killed a couple) and then one day decided to kill a Greek Antifa (knifed him to death). Then the Antifa got real serious and raided and shot-up a neo-Nazi gathering killing two people and seriously wounding a third.

It took the arrest of key neo-Nazis to stop an all out urban war happening in Athens.

How long is it going to be before one of these trigger-happy "silly men" or "buffoons" makes the mistake of shooting somebody and starting a civil war?

I remember a short time ago one of them pulled a gun and shot warning rounds in the ground in front of Antifa counter-protesters, so it is not going to be long before something REALLY stupid happens. And then things will no longer be funny at all...

And the first people to justify what will happen will be these "silly men" and "buffoons" and, of course, every intellectually-challenged American's favorite president...


lord-turner-donald-trump-is-a-racist-sexist-buffoon-and-a-threat-to-world-peace.jpg

Remember: He endorsed the sexual predator in the Cohen video, so I am sure he will have no problem supporting the neo-Nazis when they start their killing rampage.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

amanitamusc
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by amanitamusc » Tue Aug 07, 2018 6:30 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:25 am
The difference is that Antifa want to protect people, where as Nazis get off on hurting people
Grigoris wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:11 pm
Thing is though that Antifa are just childish, whereas these right-wing nuts are plain dangerous. Mainly because they are armed to the teeth too.

Take the recent Patriot Prayer rally. Police colluded with the neo-Nazis, allowing them to go to the protest armed (with firearms) while shaking down Antifa counter-protesters and arresting them for possession of non-existent weapons. They then proceeded to gas and beat the crap out of Antifa while leaving their neo-Nazi mates unperturbed.

In Greece the neo-Nazis used to blow off their pent-up sexual energy beating up migrants (killed a couple) and then one day decided to kill a Greek Antifa (knifed him to death). Then the Antifa got real serious and raided and shot-up a neo-Nazi gathering killing two people and seriously wounding a third.

It took the arrest of key neo-Nazis to stop an all out urban war happening in Athens.

How long is it going to be before one of these trigger-happy "silly men" or "buffoons" makes the mistake of shooting somebody and starting a civil war?

I remember a short time ago one of them pulled a gun and shot warning rounds in the ground in front of Antifa counter-protesters, so it is not going to be long before something REALLY stupid happens. And then things will no longer be funny at all...

And the first people to justify what will happen will be these "silly men" and "buffoons" and, of course, every intellectually-challenged American's favorite president...


lord-turner-donald-trump-is-a-racist-sexist-buffoon-and-a-threat-to-world-peace.jpg

Remember: He endorsed the sexual predator in the Cohen video, so I am sure he will have no problem supporting the neo-Nazis when they start their killing rampage.
Yes,as you mentioned in an earlier thread.They saved Conrnel West and others.

This book gives some history of Antifa and some understanding.
https://www.amazon.com/Antifa-Anti-Fasc ... 1612197035

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florin
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by florin » Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:08 pm

The nature of diverse phenomena is non-dual. This means that both pure vision and impure vision are a manifestation of the energy of the primordial state. Even though in reality there is no duality, everything manifests separately. KG

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Queequeg
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Queequeg » Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:57 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:25 am
The difference is that Antifa want to protect people, where as Nazis get off on hurting people
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

A wall of silent protesters meeting these Alt Right groups would be a really powerful message and although it wouldn't make for viral gifs would be the correct approach.

King's legacy was washed out. SNCC's story prevailed. Why? Because anger is easier than love.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Malcolm
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Aug 07, 2018 6:12 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:57 pm


King's legacy was washed out. SNCC's story prevailed. Why? Because anger is easier than love.
Yes, it is easier to be afflicted than non-afflicted. Nevertheless, in general, there is no moral equivalence between Antifa and the Alt Right. The latter need to be shut down hard, with force if necessary. The 1930's should have taught us that, no?
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Rick
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Rick » Tue Aug 07, 2018 6:18 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 6:12 pm
The latter [alt-right] need to be shut down hard, with force if necessary.
Hope you don't mind my butting in for a beat?

1. Can you think of a reasonably possible scenario in which this might happen?

2. Say it does happen ... wouldn't the backlash from the shut-downees be horrifying?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Queequeg
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Queequeg » Tue Aug 07, 2018 6:51 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 6:12 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:57 pm


King's legacy was washed out. SNCC's story prevailed. Why? Because anger is easier than love.
Yes, it is easier to be afflicted than non-afflicted. Nevertheless, in general, there is no moral equivalence between Antifa and the Alt Right. The latter need to be shut down hard, with force if necessary. The 1930's should have taught us that, no?
I agree there is no moral equivalence.

The question is not whether to respond, but how. It is a very difficult question for me. I am very conflicted about it.

Are we at that point that we need to put on armor and take up arms? Can we de-escalate and reset with Gandhi/King commitment to non-violence?

I would be interested to see this question discussed fully by fellow DharmaWheelers.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Malcolm
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:18 pm

Rick wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 6:18 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 6:12 pm
The latter [alt-right] need to be shut down hard, with force if necessary.
Hope you don't mind my butting in for a beat?

1. Can you think of a reasonably possible scenario in which this might happen?

2. Say it does happen ... wouldn't the backlash from the shut-downees be horrifying?
1. Anywhere they show up and spew hate.

2. The alternative is far worse.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:26 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 6:51 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 6:12 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:57 pm


King's legacy was washed out. SNCC's story prevailed. Why? Because anger is easier than love.
Yes, it is easier to be afflicted than non-afflicted. Nevertheless, in general, there is no moral equivalence between Antifa and the Alt Right. The latter need to be shut down hard, with force if necessary. The 1930's should have taught us that, no?
I agree there is no moral equivalence.

The question is not whether to respond, but how. It is a very difficult question for me. I am very conflicted about it.

Are we at that point that we need to put on armor and take up arms? Can we de-escalate and reset with Gandhi/King commitment to non-violence?

I would be interested to see this question discussed fully by fellow DharmaWheelers.
I am not that conflicteded. I am not advocating war, but these fascist bastards need to understand they are in the extreme minority and that decent people are not going to put up with their crap.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Queequeg
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Queequeg » Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:43 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:26 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 6:51 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 6:12 pm


Yes, it is easier to be afflicted than non-afflicted. Nevertheless, in general, there is no moral equivalence between Antifa and the Alt Right. The latter need to be shut down hard, with force if necessary. The 1930's should have taught us that, no?
I agree there is no moral equivalence.

The question is not whether to respond, but how. It is a very difficult question for me. I am very conflicted about it.

Are we at that point that we need to put on armor and take up arms? Can we de-escalate and reset with Gandhi/King commitment to non-violence?

I would be interested to see this question discussed fully by fellow DharmaWheelers.
I am not that conflicteded. I am not advocating war, but these fascist bastards need to understand they are in the extreme minority and that decent people are not going to put up with their crap.
You are a man of convictions, thankfully with rectified moral compass. A worthy and admirable trait. I'm conflicted until I commit, and on the method of confronting the hard right I see no clear path, except that I still hold out that a non-violent approach would be the preferred, and I'll further assert, the correct path.

From reports, Antifa numbers are far greater than the right wingers. I don't see why "punching fascists" should be a strategy. That seems to play into the same juvenile game of trying to get viral footage that amplifies whatever actually happened, which is these rightists strategy. It just seems like a loser game.

What is won? What's the reasoned justification for dressing up like you're going to some urban riot cosplay and getting into fights?
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Malcolm
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:13 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:43 pm


You are a man of convictions, thankfully with rectified moral compass. A worthy and admirable trait. I'm conflicted until I commit, and on the method of confronting the hard right I see no clear path, except that I still hold out that a non-violent approach would be the preferred, and I'll further assert, the correct path.
Fascists don't understand nonviolence. They are not common soldiers being asked to shoot into unarmed crowds, they are ideologically committed.
From reports, Antifa numbers are far greater than the right wingers. I don't see why "punching fascists" should be a strategy.
It is not my strategy, but I don't lose any sleep when harmful people who are enemies of the Dharma get punched. Maybe it's a Vajrayāna thing. When enemies of the Dharma on the left suffer the same fate, for example, in China, I also lose no sleep. If Muslim, Christian, or any enemies of the Dharma are stopped, this is a good thing.
What is won? What's the reasoned justification for dressing up like you're going to some urban riot cosplay and getting into fights?
I think the point is to make fascists afraid again. In my view, not a bad thing at all.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Queequeg
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Queequeg » Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:10 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:13 pm
Fascists don't understand nonviolence. They are not common soldiers being asked to shoot into unarmed crowds, they are ideologically committed.
From reports, Antifa numbers are far greater than the right wingers. I don't see why "punching fascists" should be a strategy.
It is not my strategy, but I don't lose any sleep when harmful people who are enemies of the Dharma get punched. Maybe it's a Vajrayāna thing. When enemies of the Dharma on the left suffer the same fate, for example, in China, I also lose no sleep. If Muslim, Christian, or any enemies of the Dharma are stopped, this is a good thing.
My understanding of these Alt-Right morons may be wrong, but they seem to be kind of stupid... exactly what you'd expect when you lure the cretins of 4chan out into the open. Their whole MO seems to be based on getting video footage of violent confrontations, and so when Antifa dorks show up in hockey equipment to oblige them, its like some farcical waltz made for social media. All these pasty white kids from the PNW divided up along ideological lines, looking to "rumble" with the the heavy presence of police in riot gear there to break it up if it gets too serious.

Get the f' out of here. There's a reason this kind of idiocy doesn't take place here in the Northeast.

The only thing that makes it scary is that guns are in the equation.

If Antifa just showed up and surrounded them, silently, without doing anything, the fascists would just show up, spout their crap and go home with no sensational footage. Why oblige them? Sure they only understand violence, but why get into it with them when its only about getting a video clip? They'd be ridiculous. Instead, Antifa has to fight them dressed in that home made riot gear, and everyone looks like a bunch of dipshits.

Image
What is won? What's the reasoned justification for dressing up like you're going to some urban riot cosplay and getting into fights?
I think the point is to make fascists afraid again. In my view, not a bad thing at all.
It doesn't scare them because it never gets serious. The cops are there to baby sit.

You know how you make them scared? Dox them. Get them fired from their jobs. Get them disowned by their parents. Get them black listed. Put them up on the internet so that when they get searched, the first thing that comes up is that they carry tiki torches in mobs in their free time.

It seems we need to vote a sane person into the White House who can offer some moral clarity. If we're past that point, though, then things need to be considered further. Are we past that point? Too soon to tell.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Grigoris
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:58 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:43 pm
I don't see why "punching fascists" should be a strategy.
1. Because neo-Nazis rely on fear, when you punch them in the face publicly, it shows everybody that they bleed, just like everybody else. It shows that they are as fragile as everybody else. 2. Neo-Nazis believe they are invincible. Punching them in the face reminds them of their mortality.

Punching fascists is not an end in itself, it is a means to an end.

The other thing that punching fascists does, is it keeps them busy, so they cannot go off and terrorise defenseless innocents (as they are want to do). It draws their attention away from their victims. Actually: white people punching fascists is probably one of the best uses of their white privilege.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:10 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:58 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:43 pm
I don't see why "punching fascists" should be a strategy.
1. Because neo-Nazis rely on fear, when you punch them in the face publicly, it shows everybody that they bleed, just like everybody else. It shows that they are as fragile as everybody else. 2. Neo-Nazis believe they are invincible. Punching them in the face reminds them of their mortality.

Punching fascists is not an end in itself, it is a means to an end.

The other thing that punching fascists does, is it keeps them busy, so they cannot go off and terrorise defenseless innocents (as they are want to do). It draws their attention away from their victims. Actually: white people punching fascists is probably one of the best uses of their white privilege.
Punching fascists is indeed a privilege. It should be a right, too.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

boda
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by boda » Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:26 am

Best of all, the alt-right doesn't believe in white privilege so they won't see it come'n.

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Re: Who is America ?

Post by DGA » Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:27 am

Queequeg wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:39 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:11 pm
Thing is though that Antifa are just childish, whereas these right-wing nuts are plain dangerous. Mainly because they are armed to the teeth too.

Take the recent Patriot Prayer rally. Police colluded with the neo-Nazis, allowing them to go to the protest armed (with firearms) while shaking down Antifa counter-protesters and arresting them for possession of non-existent weapons. They then proceeded to gas and beat the crap out of Antifa while leaving their neo-Nazi mates unperturbed.

In Greece the neo-Nazis used to blow off their pent-up sexual energy beating up migrants (killed a couple) and then one day decided to kill a Greek Antifa (knifed him to death). Then the Antifa got real serious and raided and shot-up a neo-Nazi gathering killing two people and seriously wounding a third.

It took the arrest of key neo-Nazis to stop an all out urban war happening in Athens.

How long is it going to be before one of these trigger-happy "silly men" or "buffoons" makes the mistake of shooting somebody and starting a civil war?

I remember a short time ago one of them pulled a gun and shot warning rounds in the ground in front of Antifa counter-protesters, so it is not going to be long before something REALLY stupid happens. And then things will no longer be funny at all...

And the first people to justify what will happen will be these "silly men" and "buffoons" and, of course, every intellectually-challenged American's favorite president...

Remember: He endorsed the sexual predator in the Cohen video, so I am sure he will have no problem supporting the neo-Nazis when they start their killing rampage.
You make good points.

That protest in Oregon this weekend definitely raises my concern level. Not like panic, but I'm taking note of this trend with serious apprehension. You are right that its just a matter of degrees before this erupts into real violence.

The way that law enforcement in many places tends to sympathize with the right, if not actually embodying the right, is scary.

Those buffoons though are not actually going to do anything... I am concerned that the things they say and do normalize dangerous ideas and encourage thugs to do things. The fact that the President is one of these buffoons is really a problem. Usually, we at least have a president who will make a statement condemning this stuff. We don't have that now and instead we have a guy who instigates this stuff for... I'm still not sure what this guy's angle actually is other than self-enrichment.
one quick follow-up on the Portland aspect of this conversation:

the culture at PPD has been like that for a very long time. For as long as I can remember. Here's a reflection on one flashpoint

https://www.wweek.com/news/2016/04/20/i ... at-age-31/

Stevenson, an off-duty security guard, father to five and a former Marine, was in a 7-Eleven store in Northeast Portland when it was robbed April 20, 1985. He helped two employees stop the thief, but then got into a fight with a witness in the parking lot.

Portland police Officer Gary L. Barbour put Stevenson in a "sleeper hold" that rendered him unconscious. Barbour chose not to perform CPR when Stevenson collapsed, and 45 minutes later, in a Portland hospital, Stevenson died. Barbour was white. Stevenson was black.

Portlanders were outraged. That fury grew when, on the day of Stevenson's funeral, two white officers, Paul Wickersham and Richard Montee, sold T-shirts to fellow cops. The shirts showed a smoking handgun and the words "Don't Choke 'Em, Smoke 'Em."

Mayor Bud Clark fired Wickersham and Montee, but they got their jobs back. Barbour was never indicted in Stevenson's death.

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Dan74
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Dan74 » Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:20 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:26 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 6:51 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 6:12 pm


Yes, it is easier to be afflicted than non-afflicted. Nevertheless, in general, there is no moral equivalence between Antifa and the Alt Right. The latter need to be shut down hard, with force if necessary. The 1930's should have taught us that, no?
I agree there is no moral equivalence.

The question is not whether to respond, but how. It is a very difficult question for me. I am very conflicted about it.

Are we at that point that we need to put on armor and take up arms? Can we de-escalate and reset with Gandhi/King commitment to non-violence?

I would be interested to see this question discussed fully by fellow DharmaWheelers.
I am not that conflicteded. I am not advocating war, but these fascist bastards need to understand they are in the extreme minority and that decent people are not going to put up with their crap.
When 'the fascist bastards' act more like 'decent people' than the ones who most visibly oppose them, then we hand them the biggest PR coup they could possibly dream of.

I was a member of PP facebook page for a while last year until folks started accusing me of being a mole or a liberal trolling them. I was just there to learn and asked a few questions. But in all honesty, they largely came across as conservative chest thumping patriotic folks, not racist (they have prominent members who are black and pacific islander), not exclusively Christian, but mostly. My sense was that it was largely fuelled not by any clear fascist ideology but by the general resentment of the elites who don't speak for them, by fear of modernity and the good old-fashioned values slipping away and some lingering passion for organising and shouting. TBH, I found it pretty mild and don't quite follow the comparisons with NSDAP, Golden Dawn and other neo-Nazis. Baffoon may well be justified, but evil etc??

To be brutally honest, I think many on the Left in the Anglophone West have become so intolerant that they scream 'Nazi' the moment anyone mentions a remotely conservative idea. Respect for diverging views, for debate and for subtlety seem to be all but dead. The panic I hear about small conservative groups like PP and rationalizing violence against them is IMO the only force capable of both propelling them into the mainstream and ultimately turning them truly fascist. Moderate voices don't do well in an environment permeated by fear, violence and a total disinterest in civil debate.

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