Who is America ?

Casual conversation between friends. Anything goes (almost).
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Dan74
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Dan74 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:39 am

OK, let me try it another way. Let's break down the proantifa argument step by step.

1. PP, Proud Boys and the like are fascists or proto-fascists.

I've seen some whacky views expressed by individual members and roguish behavious, but does that mean the whole group can be determined to be fascists, let alone neo-Nazis? Shouldn't the views of the leaders, as well as the entirety of what they put out be considered? Any group will have some loons. And Tiny apparently assaulting a guy after a heated exchange is adduced as evidence that the groups he belongs to are fascists?? Hmmm...unconvincing, but not the weakest of the bunch.


2. They might be small and insignificant now, but so was NSDAP or its progenitors. And look where that led to.

Argumentum ad Hitlerium. There are so many differences between the US and Weimar Republic, but even this could perhaps hold. It is conceivable that such groups will grow, mutate and attempt to undermine the very democratic order that they currently say they are standing up for. Yes, PP repeatedly say they are big on freedoms, right, etc. Not exactly Mr Hilter and his Munich buddies, but hey, very unlikely but possible.


3. If we don't nip them in the bud, with violence and whatever means necessary, this is what's bound to happen.

This, to me, is by far, the weakest link. It betrays a lack of belief not only in the 1st Amendment but in democracy itself - the power of non-violent action, civic discourse and a fundamental distrust of the voters. The choice is painted as being between antifa violence and non-action. Organising a powerful grassroots alternative to corrupt pollies and rightwing loons is not on the cards, is it? Winning over people's hearts and minds with coherent and fair policies, better arguments and a sensinble compassionate ideology is just a pipe dream, is it? So it's goodbye democracy then. It is indeed a sad indictment of your society if it's best minds turn to this sort of thinking. It won't take much to undermine the democratic order when it already is so weak. Vigilantes, taking law into your own hands, is all fair game. Next time people turn out to protest Trump like they did in 2016 many refusing to accept the outcome of the democratic election, the Trumpistas can organise and beat the crap out of them, since they judge them to be a danger to society. Oh boy, good luck and gawd bless America..

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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Rinchen Samphel » Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:54 am

krodha wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:35 am
The point isn’t to advocate for violence, but rather to convey that non-violent solutions are generally ineffective with these types of people.
Imagine if MLK had that view... Imagine how much more black people would have been beaten and/or died.

Anyone who tells others that violence is the only way to solve this (or any) situation are guiding those others to a lower rebirth. It is not a Bodhisattvas practice to think "oh, if i commit some non-virtues that are short term solutions here in samsara and i fall into a lower rebirth its all good because, hey, all for the benefit of others, right?" I dont think we should teach others that violence is a solution, because if it ever appears that way, no one will ever stop using it.

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Re: Who is America ?

Post by krodha » Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:00 am

Rinchen Samphel wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:54 am
krodha wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:35 am
The point isn’t to advocate for violence, but rather to convey that non-violent solutions are generally ineffective with these types of people.
Imagine if MLK had that view... Imagine how much more black people would have been beaten and/or died.

Anyone who tells others that violence is the only way to solve this (or any) situation are guiding those others to a lower rebirth. It is not a Bodhisattvas practice to think "oh, if i commit some non-virtues that are short term solutions here in samsara and i fall into a lower rebirth its all good because, hey, all for the benefit of others, right?" I dont think we should teach others that violence is a solution, because if it ever appears that way, no one will ever stop using it.
I’m not “teaching” others that violence is a solution. Merely noting that it was the only thing that worked with the fascists that used to plague our community.

The people involved in the situations I’m referring to weren’t practitioners, nor was I a practitioner back then, so the Buddhist angle while appropriate for this forum, was inapplicable to the situation ten or fifteen plus years ago I am referencing.

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Malcolm
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:09 am

Sometimes you just have to punch Nazis. It is a solid American bodhisattva tradition. But you’re not American, so I guess you just don’t get it.
Dan74 wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:39 am
OK, let me try it another way. Let's break down the proantifa argument step by step.

1. PP, Proud Boys and the like are fascists or proto-fascists.

I've seen some whacky views expressed by individual members and roguish behavious, but does that mean the whole group can be determined to be fascists, let alone neo-Nazis? Shouldn't the views of the leaders, as well as the entirety of what they put out be considered? Any group will have some loons. And Tiny apparently assaulting a guy after a heated exchange is adduced as evidence that the groups he belongs to are fascists?? Hmmm...unconvincing, but not the weakest of the bunch.


2. They might be small and insignificant now, but so was NSDAP or its progenitors. And look where that led to.

Argumentum ad Hitlerium. There are so many differences between the US and Weimar Republic, but even this could perhaps hold. It is conceivable that such groups will grow, mutate and attempt to undermine the very democratic order that they currently say they are standing up for. Yes, PP repeatedly say they are big on freedoms, right, etc. Not exactly Mr Hilter and his Munich buddies, but hey, very unlikely but possible.


3. If we don't nip them in the bud, with violence and whatever means necessary, this is what's bound to happen.

This, to me, is by far, the weakest link. It betrays a lack of belief not only in the 1st Amendment but in democracy itself - the power of non-violent action, civic discourse and a fundamental distrust of the voters. The choice is painted as being between antifa violence and non-action. Organising a powerful grassroots alternative to corrupt pollies and rightwing loons is not on the cards, is it? Winning over people's hearts and minds with coherent and fair policies, better arguments and a sensinble compassionate ideology is just a pipe dream, is it? So it's goodbye democracy then. It is indeed a sad indictment of your society if it's best minds turn to this sort of thinking. It won't take much to undermine the democratic order when it already is so weak. Vigilantes, taking law into your own hands, is all fair game. Next time people turn out to protest Trump like they did in 2016 many refusing to accept the outcome of the democratic election, the Trumpistas can organise and beat the crap out of them, since they judge them to be a danger to society. Oh boy, good luck and gawd bless America..
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Rinchen Samphel
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Rinchen Samphel » Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:16 am

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:09 am
American bodhisattva tradition.
Sounds like something a new-agey alt-right Buddhist would say when advocating fightin' them muslims.

Sorry, i know thats not your point, but it put a humorous picture in my head.

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Dan74
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Dan74 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:29 am

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:09 am
Sometimes you just have to punch Nazis. It is a solid American bodhisattva tradition. But you’re not American, so I guess you just don’t get it.
Dan74 wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:39 am
OK, let me try it another way. Let's break down the proantifa argument step by step.

1. PP, Proud Boys and the like are fascists or proto-fascists.

I've seen some whacky views expressed by individual members and roguish behavious, but does that mean the whole group can be determined to be fascists, let alone neo-Nazis? Shouldn't the views of the leaders, as well as the entirety of what they put out be considered? Any group will have some loons. And Tiny apparently assaulting a guy after a heated exchange is adduced as evidence that the groups he belongs to are fascists?? Hmmm...unconvincing, but not the weakest of the bunch.


2. They might be small and insignificant now, but so was NSDAP or its progenitors. And look where that led to.

Argumentum ad Hitlerium. There are so many differences between the US and Weimar Republic, but even this could perhaps hold. It is conceivable that such groups will grow, mutate and attempt to undermine the very democratic order that they currently say they are standing up for. Yes, PP repeatedly say they are big on freedoms, right, etc. Not exactly Mr Hilter and his Munich buddies, but hey, very unlikely but possible.


3. If we don't nip them in the bud, with violence and whatever means necessary, this is what's bound to happen.

This, to me, is by far, the weakest link. It betrays a lack of belief not only in the 1st Amendment but in democracy itself - the power of non-violent action, civic discourse and a fundamental distrust of the voters. The choice is painted as being between antifa violence and non-action. Organising a powerful grassroots alternative to corrupt pollies and rightwing loons is not on the cards, is it? Winning over people's hearts and minds with coherent and fair policies, better arguments and a sensinble compassionate ideology is just a pipe dream, is it? So it's goodbye democracy then. It is indeed a sad indictment of your society if it's best minds turn to this sort of thinking. It won't take much to undermine the democratic order when it already is so weak. Vigilantes, taking law into your own hands, is all fair game. Next time people turn out to protest Trump like they did in 2016 many refusing to accept the outcome of the democratic election, the Trumpistas can organise and beat the crap out of them, since they judge them to be a danger to society. Oh boy, good luck and gawd bless America..
Malcolm, :D

As much as I don't doubt (and even rejoice in) your good intentions, you know what they say about the road to hell? In this case, I don't mean your rebirth but the future of your country.

And yes, I am not American and I don't get it. Pretty pathetic argument btw, but full points for sincerity.

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Re: Who is America ?

Post by PeterC » Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:43 am

Dan74 wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:29 am
...you know what they say about the road to hell? In this case, I don't mean your rebirth but the future of your country. ...
The president and the most powerful political party of that country will even not acknowledge that Nazis are *bad* - and that's far from the most depressing fact about that country today. So hope for the future? That ship has sailed.

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Grigoris
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Grigoris » Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:07 am

Dan74 wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:39 am
OK, let me try it another way. Let's break down the proantifa argument step by step.

1. PP, Proud Boys and the like are fascists or proto-fascists.

I've seen some whacky views expressed by individual members and roguish behavious, but does that mean the whole group can be determined to be fascists, let alone neo-Nazis? Shouldn't the views of the leaders, as well as the entirety of what they put out be considered? Any group will have some loons. And Tiny apparently assaulting a guy after a heated exchange is adduced as evidence that the groups he belongs to are fascists?? Hmmm...unconvincing, but not the weakest of the bunch.
Yes, every group has some loons. But some groups are composed purely of loons. If it quacks like a duck...
2. They might be small and insignificant now, but so was NSDAP or its progenitors. And look where that led to.

Argumentum ad Hitlerium. There are so many differences between the US and Weimar Republic, but even this could perhaps hold. It is conceivable that such groups will grow, mutate and attempt to undermine the very democratic order that they currently say they are standing up for. Yes, PP repeatedly say they are big on freedoms, right, etc. Not exactly Mr Hilter and his Munich buddies, but hey, very unlikely but possible.
First of all I did not use only the example of the DP and NSDAP, I also used the example of Golden Dawn in Greece. Cherry picking, much? Secondly: Golden Dawn are also big on rights and freedoms, for Greek people exclusively.
3. If we don't nip them in the bud, with violence and whatever means necessary, this is what's bound to happen.

This, to me, is by far, the weakest link. It betrays a lack of belief not only in the 1st Amendment but in democracy itself - the power of non-violent action, civic discourse and a fundamental distrust of the voters. The choice is painted as being between antifa violence and non-action. Organising a powerful grassroots alternative to corrupt pollies and rightwing loons is not on the cards, is it? Winning over people's hearts and minds with coherent and fair policies, better arguments and a sensinble compassionate ideology is just a pipe dream, is it? So it's goodbye democracy then. It is indeed a sad indictment of your society if it's best minds turn to this sort of thinking. It won't take much to undermine the democratic order when it already is so weak. Vigilantes, taking law into your own hands, is all fair game. Next time people turn out to protest Trump like they did in 2016 many refusing to accept the outcome of the democratic election, the Trumpistas can organise and beat the crap out of them, since they judge them to be a danger to society. Oh boy, good luck and gawd bless America..
Nobody said that violence is the only solution. Well, I didn't. I said that punching fascists in the head is a valid strategy. I didn't say it is the only strategy. Straw man argument.

Try again.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Grigoris » Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:15 am

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:09 am
Sometimes you just have to punch Nazis. It is a solid American bodhisattva tradition. But you’re not American, so I guess you just don’t get it.
I was in an Australian Antifa cell in my wild youth, we used to punch Nazis in the head. We got it. Apologists and fence-sitters didn't get it, but we got it.

We did it because the neo-Nazis in our neighbourhood were targeting (attacking and accosting) minority groups and we decided we were not putting up with violence against the unprotected. As a consequence our house was attacked and we were constantly playing cat and mouse (with changing roles depending on the numbers). We started martial arts training in order to be more effective at punching Nazis in the head. At some point in time we decided to buy guns. Luckily, our contacts in the police force cracked down on the neo-Nazis before we ended up in jail.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Grigoris » Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:24 am

Rinchen Samphel wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:54 am
Imagine if MLK had that view... Imagine how much more black people would have been beaten and/or died.
NEWS FLASH: Black people are still being gunned down indiscriminately in the streets and in their homes by "law" enforcement agents.

Non-violent action cannot be used in all circumstances. It is a strategy that is only applicable in some situations.

It worked in the case of India and the U$ in the mid-fifties because it was being used against an oppressor that viewed black people as commodities. The oppressors needed black people for cheap labour and could not afford to kill them.

An example of a strategy being effective in one instance but not another follows:

When the Ottoman Empire struck against the rebellion in Chios Greece the first time, the common people escaped to the grounds of churches and monasteries for sanctuary, the Ottoman forces respected the sanctity of the spaces and did not enter.

The second time the islanders tried to rebel the Ottomans had a different plan. They killed everybody on the island, including those in the churches and monasteries, except for the 20,000 people they needed in order to harvest the mastic crop that was so precious to them.

Flash forward...

Nazis aim to eradicate certain religious and ethnic groups. If the members of those religious and ethnic groups go like lambs to the slaughter, it just makes their job easier.

Now go read some history about how Nazism was defeated militarily.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

amanitamusc
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by amanitamusc » Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:42 am

I live 50 miles from Mexico,SE Arizona.There are neo nazi groups out here but they stay to themselves.
The Mexican cartels and gangs are dominant.The further north you go things change a bit.
Here is some info on hate groups out this way.
https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/lo ... 565819001/

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Re: Who is America ?

Post by amanitamusc » Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:48 am

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:24 am
Rinchen Samphel wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:54 am
Imagine if MLK had that view... Imagine how much more black people would have been beaten and/or died.
NEWS FLASH: Black people are still being gunned down indiscriminately in the streets and in their homes by "law" enforcement agents.

Non-violent action cannot be used in all circumstances. It is a strategy that is only applicable in some situations.

It worked in the case of India and the U$ in the mid-fifties because it was being used against an oppressor that viewed black people as commodities. The oppressors needed black people for cheap labour and could not afford to kill them.

When the Ottoman Empire struck against the rebellion in Chios, Greece the first time the common people escaped to the grounds of chrches and monastaries for sanctuary, the Ottoman forces respected the sanctity of the spaces and did not enter.

The second time the islanders tried to rebel the Ottomans had a different plan. They killed everybody on the island except for the 20,000 people they needed in order to harvest the mastic crop that was so precious to them.

Flash forward...

Nazis aim to eradicate certain religious and ethnic groups. If the members of those religious and ethnic groups go like lambs to the slaughter it just makes their job easier.

Now go read some history about how Nazism was defeated militarily.
I notice a lot more cops being killed in the news here in the u.s There is some push back starting.

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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Dan74 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:15 am

How do you guys square it with

“Hatred does not cease through hatred at any time. Hatred ceases through love. This is an unalterable law.”

Please don't give me the BS that "punching out a Nazi" is done with love and no hatred, that you are a wrathful manifestation of blahblah, that only Hinayanists understand this literally. An honest heartfelt answer please.

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Re: Who is America ?

Post by amanitamusc » Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:47 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:15 am
How do you guys square it with

“Hatred does not cease through hatred at any time. Hatred ceases through love. This is an unalterable law.”

Please don't give me the BS that "punching out a Nazi" is done with love and no hatred, that you are a wrathful manifestation of blahblah, that only Hinayanists understand this literally. An honest heartfelt answer please.
Karma.

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Malcolm
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:40 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:29 am

As much as I don't doubt (and even rejoice in) your good intentions, you know what they say about the road to hell? In this case, I don't mean your rebirth but the future of your country.
We have a long tradition of punching Nazis in this country, going back to the Spanish Civil War.

Interestingly, Elle Reeve, who covered Charlottesville for Vice, was on CNN this morning, and she said that Antifa is so well organized via the internet, they really have managed to route the vast majority of Alt-right events, and that the Alt-right is very frustrated by Antifa.

Good job Antifa.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:51 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:15 am
How do you guys square it with

“Hatred does not cease through hatred at any time. Hatred ceases through love. This is an unalterable law.”

Please don't give me the BS that "punching out a Nazi" is done with love and no hatred, that you are a wrathful manifestation of blahblah, that only Hinayanists understand this literally. An honest heartfelt answer please.
Mahāyāna ethics are based on intention, not on some particular set of vows. If by punching Nazis you intend to protect others, then this is a positive and meritorious act. And, if by punching a Nazi, you protect others, you also protect the Nazi from themselves.

Pretty sure Antifa is on the right side of history, here.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Rinchen Samphel
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Rinchen Samphel » Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:05 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:51 pm
Dan74 wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:15 am
How do you guys square it with

“Hatred does not cease through hatred at any time. Hatred ceases through love. This is an unalterable law.”

Please don't give me the BS that "punching out a Nazi" is done with love and no hatred, that you are a wrathful manifestation of blahblah, that only Hinayanists understand this literally. An honest heartfelt answer please.
Mahāyāna ethics are based on intention, not on some particular set of vows. If by punching Nazis you intend to protect others, then this is a positive and meritorious act. And, if by punching a Nazi, you protect others, you also protect the Nazi from themselves.

Pretty sure Antifa is on the right side of history, here.

So...?
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:02 pm

The Buddha sat on a hillside under a dead tree watching Kapilavastu being sacked and his relatives being enslaved by King Ajatasatru after having dissuaded Ajatasatru on an earlier occasion from invading.

What we do in Mahāyāna in response to pure evil is keep our eyes open and act as witnesses.
Malcolm wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 8:38 pm
You still did not understand. Picking sides is what causes one to go to lower realms.
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:48 pm
It depends on your understanding the real situation of samsara. If you don't understand— you join in, pick sides, and go to three lower realms. This is called having a one-lifetime view.

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Malcolm
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:10 pm

Rinchen Samphel wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:05 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:51 pm
Dan74 wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:15 am
How do you guys square it with

“Hatred does not cease through hatred at any time. Hatred ceases through love. This is an unalterable law.”

Please don't give me the BS that "punching out a Nazi" is done with love and no hatred, that you are a wrathful manifestation of blahblah, that only Hinayanists understand this literally. An honest heartfelt answer please.
Mahāyāna ethics are based on intention, not on some particular set of vows. If by punching Nazis you intend to protect others, then this is a positive and meritorious act. And, if by punching a Nazi, you protect others, you also protect the Nazi from themselves.

Pretty sure Antifa is on the right side of history, here.

So...?
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:02 pm

The Buddha sat on a hillside under a dead tree watching Kapilavastu being sacked and his relatives being enslaved by King Ajatasatru after having dissuaded Ajatasatru on an earlier occasion from invading.

What we do in Mahāyāna in response to pure evil is keep our eyes open and act as witnesses.
Malcolm wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 8:38 pm
You still did not understand. Picking sides is what causes one to go to lower realms.
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:48 pm
It depends on your understanding the real situation of samsara. If you don't understand— you join in, pick sides, and go to three lower realms. This is called having a one-lifetime view.
Did I ever once say that Buddhists should run around punching Nazis?
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Lukeinaz
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Lukeinaz » Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:10 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:51 pm
Dan74 wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:15 am
How do you guys square it with

“Hatred does not cease through hatred at any time. Hatred ceases through love. This is an unalterable law.”

Please don't give me the BS that "punching out a Nazi" is done with love and no hatred, that you are a wrathful manifestation of blahblah, that only Hinayanists understand this literally. An honest heartfelt answer please.
Mahāyāna ethics are based on intention, not on some particular set of vows. If by punching Nazis you intend to protect others, then this is a positive and meritorious act. And, if by punching a Nazi, you protect others, you also protect the Nazi from themselves.

Pretty sure Antifa is on the right side of history, here.
Malcom, it seems punching nazis is a good way to get yourself shot. Most of these guys will be armed to the gills and probably not think twice about shooting. Are you punching nazis yourself or just recommending this to others?

I often wonder what if we let these assholes have there demonstrations or whatever and just stay the hell away? It seems they thrive off the confrontation which leads to more head lines more publicity, ect. What if no one showed up, it would just be a bunch of nazis jerking each other, they probably would get bored and less people shot.
You are truly astonishing--going to look for yourself when you already are yourself! --Longchen Rabjam

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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Grigoris » Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:15 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:15 am
How do you guys square it with

“Hatred does not cease through hatred at any time. Hatred ceases through love. This is an unalterable law.”

Please don't give me the BS that "punching out a Nazi" is done with love and no hatred, that you are a wrathful manifestation of blahblah, that only Hinayanists understand this literally. An honest heartfelt answer please.
I don't try to justify everything through Buddhism. I am not a fundamentalist. I have my own opinions on a variety of issues, that I have never tried to analyse through the prism of Buddhism, because I do not care to do so.

AND: I have afflictions.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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