Who is America ?

Casual conversation between friends. Anything goes (almost).
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Malcolm
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:29 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:18 pm
Malcolm, I worry not only about people getting hurt but this tactic backfiring. I think it already has delivered some PR coups to the alt-right/fascists.

You quote seems to touch on this in the last sentence, but I don't see an argument. Maybe it follows - I will have a look later, it's bedtime here.
From the same article:

What changed? In truth, nothing. We are observing a phenomenon that Martin Luther King, Jr. noted well in his 1963 Letter from Birmingham Jail. We are dealing with “the white moderate, who is more devoted to ‘order’ than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: ‘I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action.” There is no shortage to the irony that the white moderates of today invoke MLK to decry antifa tactics as violent, but I believe (if one can so speculate) they would have been critical of his radical non-violence, predicated as it was in provoking a violent spectacle. It is a great liberal tradition to stand on the wrong side of history until that history is comfortably in the past.
And:

After I left Berlin, I visited my 82-year-old grandfather in southern Spain. He’s a British expat with a vast repertoire of embellished anecdotes, a purpling tan, and the occasional reactionary bent. One lunchtime, I asked him: “Do you think it’s okay to punch neo-Nazis?”

I asked him in particular because I was seeking a certain response, from a certain generation, at a certain distance. I wanted an incredulous “yes” and a confused expression, as if I’d asked whether fire burns or if he’d like another drink. He’s the sort of man who sees the world as if moral facts were just there, as obvious and immovable as mountains—not the constant ethical navigation of anti-fascisting we need. But I wanted my aging grandfather—whose politics are not my own—to place neo-Nazi-punching in his blunt taxonomy of right and wrong. I wanted to beg my own question.

He replied without pause: “Who could have a problem with that?”
And:
In response, the anti-fascists of the 43 Group made it their business to identify, surveil, and physically confront, disrupt, and shut down fascist organizing in London and across Britain. They used knives, knuckledusters, and crowbars. “We’re not here to kill. We’re here to maim,” they would say. The group disrupted over 2,000 meetings over five active years and is widely credited for neutralizing postwar Britain’s fascist movement. "We defended the community by making it impossible for the fascists to terrorize us," one member, Jules Konopinski, told the Guardian in 2009 when he was 79 years old. The group’s militancy drew some contemporary censure from parts of the British Jewish establishment, but for the most part its place in history is either overlooked or lauded by historians, Holocaust memorial institutions, and anti-racist groups. Famed hairdresser Vidal Sassoon was an active fighter among the group—when he died in 2012, mainstream media obituaries described him as an “anti-fascist-warrior” who was “fighting back against fascist oppression.”
And:
Antifa do not bring violence; the violence was there in the DNA of fascism and our world through which it permeates. Our violence is counter-violence in history’s unbroken dialectic of violence and counter-violence. Why not end the cycle? I repeat here the words of late philosopher Bernard Williams, who noted that "to say peace when there is no peace is to say nothing." The question then is not one of necessary violence, but impossible non-violence.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Queequeg
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Queequeg » Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:00 am

There's a big difference between direct action and punching fascists.

It takes guts to remain non-violent. We're not talking about being a principled coward.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Malcolm
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Malcolm » Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:20 am

Queequeg wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:00 am
There's a big difference between direct action and punching fascists.

It takes guts to remain non-violent. We're not talking about being a principled coward.
And as group 43 illustrates, sometimes you just have to punch fascists, and that is the most effective way at stemming their influence...
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Quay
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Quay » Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:58 am

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:15 pm
I don't try to justify everything through Buddhism. I am not a fundamentalist. I have my own opinions on a variety of issues, that I have never tried to analyse through the prism of Buddhism, because I do not care to do so.
Perhaps that is unfortunate because Buddhist philosophy can compass every other philosophy without resorting to sleights of hand, physical metaphors, or reliance on "suddenly a miracle!" kind of things.

It is also perhaps unfortunate because everything being discussed in this thread can be explained through an examination and understanding of the Eight Worldly Dharmas. The desire realm operates on some fairly simple principles. Understanding them is often helpful to explain events especially those happening right now in the U.S.
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.

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Dan74
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Dan74 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:02 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:20 am
Queequeg wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:00 am
There's a big difference between direct action and punching fascists.

It takes guts to remain non-violent. We're not talking about being a principled coward.
And as group 43 illustrates, sometimes you just have to punch fascists, and that is the most effective way at stemming their influence...
Not sure it illustrates it. The wiki page for 43 Group says:
The overall effect of 43 Group is unclear. Morris Beckman argued that it was crucial in stopping a resurgence of fascism in post-war Britain. However, Nigel Copsey argues in Anti-Fascism in Britain that the fascists and anti-fascists might have only radicalised each other.[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/43_Group

Interesting tangent to see how similar things worked in a different place and at a different time, but perhaps more instructive to see how it works now. How did the antifa tactics affect the public opinion now? How did the media cover the events? Is there evidence that this is stemming the growth of fascism in the USA?

Going back to PP, with Joey Gibson describing himself as a Conservative Libertarian, what evidence is there that the group is indeed fascist and that antifa's tactics are justified on these grounds? Where do we draw the line between supporting a violent opposition to a group spreading a fascist ideology that has been shown to be dangerous to democracy and violent opposition to a group whose ideology we happen to disagree with?

As Antifa initiate violence at counterprotests against largely mild groups like PP (as they did according to many reports) , they lose both their credibility and their moral high ground, IMO. Fascism is not a few dozen PP members, it is a way of thinking. And Antifa violence does absolutely nothing to challenge it. Rather the opposite - they make it look more attractive with folks who lack the background looking on in sympathy at the 'poor bastards getting attacked'.

Yes, I am not American, but I've been around, having lived in 3 very different countries. Maybe this gives me some perspective, or maybe it just muddies it, but either way, I think your case is far from made. I will let mine rest, since it starts feeling repetitive, but thank you for all the interesting links and thoughts on the subject.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/mor ... -berkeley/

https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2017/1 ... johnstone/

https://iip.rutgers.edu/sites/default/f ... lenges.pdf

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Grigoris
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Grigoris » Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:17 am

Quay wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:58 am
Perhaps that is unfortunate because Buddhist philosophy can compass every other philosophy without resorting to sleights of hand, physical metaphors, or reliance on "suddenly a miracle!" kind of things.

It is also perhaps unfortunate because everything being discussed in this thread can be explained through an examination and understanding of the Eight Worldly Dharmas. The desire realm operates on some fairly simple principles. Understanding them is often helpful to explain events especially those happening right now in the U.S.
If you want to be a fundamentalist, that is your issue. I am quite happy to rely on my innate discriminating wisdom, I don't need to read a teaching or commentary to figure out whether I should take a dump or not. You may feel that you need to, I don't.

Everybody here is saying that "love is the only (Buddhist) way", forgetting that love, like hate, is an impermanent phenomenon based on causes and conditions and thus ultimately a source of suffering.

The other thing that people are assuming is that for somebody to want to end Fascism, by any means necessary, that they are necessarily motivated by hatred and not by compassion for the innocent and defenseless victims of Fascist hatred.

So... You want me to act like a fundamentalist and justify my (apparently afflicted) views via Buddhism? Here it goes: Vajrayana allows for the destruction of enemies of the Dharma. Does hate filled violence lead to the destruction of the Dharma? There you go, I just used Buddhism to justify punching Nazis, you happy now?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Grigoris
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Grigoris » Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:56 am

only you.jpg
only you.jpg (318.01 KiB) Viewed 424 times
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Malcolm » Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:16 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:02 am

Going back to PP, with Joey Gibson describing himself as a Conservative Libertarian, what evidence is there that the group is indeed fascist and that antifa's tactics are justified on these grounds?
Gibson is a fellow traveler on the right. He associates with Chapman, the Proud Boys, etc. For example, Ezra Pound claimed he was not a fascist, but by his actions, he proved he was and later admitted that his great fault was the suburban bias of anti-semitism.
Where do we draw the line between supporting a violent opposition to a group spreading a fascist ideology that has been shown to be dangerous to democracy and violent opposition to a group whose ideology we happen to disagree with?
While Gibson has tried to disavow white nationalism, etc., he continues to openly associate with such people. It is part of the Guns and Jesus trip in the US. Ted Nugent is probably his favorite band.
As Antifa initiate violence at counterprotests against largely mild groups like PP (as they did according to many reports) , they lose both their credibility and their moral high ground, IMO. Fascism is not a few dozen PP members, it is a way of thinking. And Antifa violence does absolutely nothing to challenge it. Rather the opposite - they make it look more attractive with folks who lack the background looking on in sympathy at the 'poor bastards getting attacked'.
Sorry, but Gibson provides a forum for fascists to show up. He can claim all he likes that he is not a racist, and so on, but the fact is that white nationalists, etc., regularly show up at his rallies. Further, members of his group also belong to the Proud Boys, a definite hate group.
Yes, I am not American, but I've been around, having lived in 3 very different countries. Maybe this gives me some perspective, or maybe it just muddies it, but either way, I think your case is far from made. I will let mine rest, since it starts feeling repetitive, but thank you for all the interesting links and thoughts on the subject.
I am not making a case. You are. Not interested in your case. I am just stating as a matter of principle that fascism cannot be allow to flourish and when fascist show up to spread their ideology in public, they should be opposed.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Queequeg
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Queequeg » Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:26 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:16 pm
I am not making a case. You are. Not interested in your case. I am just stating as a matter of principle that fascism cannot be allow to flourish and when fascist show up to spread their ideology in public, they should be opposed.
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:20 am
And as group 43 illustrates, sometimes you just have to punch fascists, and that is the most effective way at stemming their influence...
You've been threading an argument arguing the need for violent confrontation of "fascists", without actually supporting it.

I don't know, man. I don't know.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Queequeg
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Queequeg » Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:56 pm

I've been holding back from citing this, but in the interest of having a complete discussion on how punching fascists might relate to Dharma practice, we have to deal with this:

Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra:
The Buddha said to Kasyapa: "By correctly upholding Wonderful Dharma, one obtains this adamantine body. O Kasyapa! As I have in the past well guarded Dharma, I am now blessed with perfecting this adamantine body, which is eternal and indestructible. O good man! One who upholds Wonderful Dharma does not receive the five precepts and practise deportment, but protects with the sword, bow, arrow, and halberd those bhiksus who uphold the precepts and who are pure..." O good man! In the past - innumerable, boundless, asamkhyas of kalpas past - there appeared in this town of Kusinagara a Buddha who was the Alms-deserving, the All-Enlightened One, the All-accomplished One, the Well-gone, the All-knower, the Unsurpassed One, the Best Trainer, the Teacher of Heaven and Earth, the Buddha-World-Honoured One, and whose name was "Tathagata of Joy-and-Benefit-Augmentation." At that time, the world was wide and gloriously pure, rich and peaceful. The people were at the height of prosperity and no hunger was felt. He [They] looked like the Bodhisattvas of the Land of Peace and Happiness. That Buddha-World-Honoured One stayed in the world for an innumerable length of time. Having taught the people, he entered Parinirvana between the twin sal trees. The Buddha having entered Nirvana, the teaching remained in the world for countless billions of years and in the last part of the remaining 40 years the Buddhist teaching had still not died. At that time, there was a bhiksu called "Enlightened-Virtuous", who upheld the precepts well and was surrounded by many of his relatives. He raised the lion's roar and preached all the nine types of sutras. He taught, saying: "Do not keep menials, men or women, cows, sheep or whatever might go against the precepts." At that time there were many bhiksus who were acting contrary to the precepts. On hearing this, they entertained ill-will and came upon this bhiksu, brandishing swords and staffs. At that time, there was a king called "Virtuous". He heard of this. To protect Dharma, he came to where the bhiksu was delivering his sermons and fought against the evil doers so that the bhiksu did not suffer. The king, however, received wounds all over his body. Then the bhiksu, Enlightened-Virtuous, praised the king, saying: "Well done, well done, O King! You are a person who protects Wonderful Dharma. In days to come, you will become the unsurpassed utensil of Dharma." The king listened to his sermon and rejoiced. Then he died and was born in the land of Buddha Akshobhya and became his foremost disciple. The subjects of this king, his relatives and soldiers were all glad and did not retrogress in their Bodhichitta [resolve to gain Enlightenment]. When the day came to depart the world, they were born in the land of Buddha Akshobhya. At the time when Wonderful Dharma is about to die out, one should act and protect Dharma like this. O Kasyapa! The king at that time was I; the bhiksu who delivered the sermon was Buddha Kasyapa. O Kasyapa! One who guards Wonderful Dharma is recompensed with such incalculable fruition. That is why I today adorn my body in various ways and have perfectly achieved the indestructible Dharma-Body."
Personally, I do not disavow violence as a means, but I consider it a last resort, and one that is karmically perilous.

I practice a tradition that was marked with violent persecution from the outset. Several attempts were made to murder the founder of my school. At one point, he was chased by a mob after his first public teaching; his hermitage was burned down by a rioting mob and he had to flee the city; armed soldiers attacked him while he was traveling, killing two samurai who accompanied him and while he suffered a sword wound across his face and a broken hand; he was exiled to remote places and left to die in the elements; he was arrested and beaten, sentenced to death and saved at the last moment as he faced the executioner's sword; he was harassed on a daily basis; a number of his followers were executed or killed in mob violence; others lost their fiefs and titles. Many monks of our tradition have suffered similar persecutions in the centuries since; our community in Kyoto was genocided during the civil wars there. More recently, individuals have been exiled or imprisoned for defying the military government of Japan. My point is that we are steeped in confronting and withstanding persecution, and we are expected to protect the dharma even at the cost of our lives. We may be a lot of things, but we are taught to never be afraid or to back down from evil.

At present I don't see the need to violently confront these people. Doing so undermines the greater goal and in my view creates more problems than it would solved. The peaceful means have not been exhausted. At some point, the balance of the question may change. That will largely depend on how robustly we act now through non-violent means.

I understand that others see the conditions differently - that the balance has already turned. I can see the arguments.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Malcolm
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Malcolm » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:33 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:26 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:16 pm
I am not making a case. You are. Not interested in your case. I am just stating as a matter of principle that fascism cannot be allow to flourish and when fascist show up to spread their ideology in public, they should be opposed.
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:20 am
And as group 43 illustrates, sometimes you just have to punch fascists, and that is the most effective way at stemming their influence...
You've been threading an argument arguing the need for violent confrontation of "fascists", without actually supporting it.

I don't know, man. I don't know.
Kessler himself admitted on an alt-right podcast that many of the attendees at last year’s rally were “people who aren’t used to being out of the internet,” and who didn’t recognize that their identities being public would lead to real-world problems.

No wonder, then, that in his post denouncing the second rally, neo-Nazi Andrew Anglin wrote that to go to a post-Charlottesville Unite the Right rally would potentially be life-ruining. “Getting doxed as a neo-Nazi street fighter will ruin your live [sic], forever.”
https://www.vox.com/2018/8/10/17670996/ ... ottesville

Dan, Ken Cormier, one of the PP guys, is a guest speaker at this weekend's DC Unite the Right 2018 rally. This rally will be attended by such lovelies as Hammer Skins, David Duke (again), etc.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Dan74
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Location: Lyss, Switzerland

Re: Who is America ?

Post by Dan74 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:13 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:33 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:26 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:16 pm
I am not making a case. You are. Not interested in your case. I am just stating as a matter of principle that fascism cannot be allow to flourish and when fascist show up to spread their ideology in public, they should be opposed.
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:20 am
And as group 43 illustrates, sometimes you just have to punch fascists, and that is the most effective way at stemming their influence...
You've been threading an argument arguing the need for violent confrontation of "fascists", without actually supporting it.

I don't know, man. I don't know.
Kessler himself admitted on an alt-right podcast that many of the attendees at last year’s rally were “people who aren’t used to being out of the internet,” and who didn’t recognize that their identities being public would lead to real-world problems.

No wonder, then, that in his post denouncing the second rally, neo-Nazi Andrew Anglin wrote that to go to a post-Charlottesville Unite the Right rally would potentially be life-ruining. “Getting doxed as a neo-Nazi street fighter will ruin your live [sic], forever.”
https://www.vox.com/2018/8/10/17670996/ ... ottesville

Dan, Ken Cormier, one of the PP guys, is a guest speaker at this weekend's DC Unite the Right 2018 rally. This rally will be attended by such lovelies as Hammer Skins, David Duke (again), etc.
Malcolm, apart from David Duke, I don't know who these people are. I am not sure we want to spread 'guilt by association' especially when association is being in the same place. But knowingly giving platform to a fascist is not on. People are of course free to attend rallies - how can you control that really?

Look, I personally find it truly heartening when a huge number of counterprotesters stand with dignity holding banners saying things like "Hate is not welcome here" and lead by example of not hating. I find it truly heartening when children are taught about the rise of fascism and explore the implications of such ideology in school, so that they become intellectually inoculated. I also find it truly heartening when instead of clickbait and attention-grabbing superficial BS, there are serious but accessible debates and discussions, also at the community level on these topics. These noxious systems flourish amidst ignorance, confusion, fear and anger. The more we work to remove them, the less ground they have. The rallies and the buffoons are the manifestation. I say we go for the root cause.

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Malcolm
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Malcolm » Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:20 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:13 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:33 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:26 pm




You've been threading an argument arguing the need for violent confrontation of "fascists", without actually supporting it.

I don't know, man. I don't know.
Kessler himself admitted on an alt-right podcast that many of the attendees at last year’s rally were “people who aren’t used to being out of the internet,” and who didn’t recognize that their identities being public would lead to real-world problems.

No wonder, then, that in his post denouncing the second rally, neo-Nazi Andrew Anglin wrote that to go to a post-Charlottesville Unite the Right rally would potentially be life-ruining. “Getting doxed as a neo-Nazi street fighter will ruin your live [sic], forever.”
https://www.vox.com/2018/8/10/17670996/ ... ottesville

Dan, Ken Cormier, one of the PP guys, is a guest speaker at this weekend's DC Unite the Right 2018 rally. This rally will be attended by such lovelies as Hammer Skins, David Duke (again), etc.
Malcolm, apart from David Duke, I don't know who these people are. I am not sure we want to spread 'guilt by association' especially when association is being in the same place. But knowingly giving platform to a fascist is not on. People are of course free to attend rallies - how can you control that really?
You don't really seem to know who you are talking about here.


The rallies and the buffoons are the manifestation. I say we go for the root cause.

Sometimes, often actually, if you don't address the symptoms, the symptoms themselves are fatal. If the patient dies, there is no root cause to remove.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Quay
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Quay » Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:42 pm

Oh ffs. Enough straw men here to outfit a dozen barns for halloween.
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:17 am
If you want to be a fundamentalist, that is your issue.
Non sequitur and a straw man. Nice.
I am quite happy to rely on my innate discriminating wisdom, I don't need to read a teaching or commentary to figure out whether I should take a dump or not. You may feel that you need to, I don't.
Straw man again with scatalogical adornment. Nice again.
Everybody here is saying that "love is the only (Buddhist) way", forgetting that love, like hate, is an impermanent phenomenon based on causes and conditions and thus ultimately a source of suffering.
Everybody here is not saying that. More straw.
The other thing that people are assuming is that for somebody to want to end Fascism, by any means necessary, that they are necessarily motivated by hatred and not by compassion for the innocent and defenseless victims of Fascist hatred.
What people are assuming this? Another hectare of straw to cover up that assumption.
So... You want me to act like a fundamentalist and justify my (apparently afflicted) views via Buddhism?
No. This is your own oddly narrow projection.
Here it goes: Vajrayana allows for the destruction of enemies of the Dharma. Does hate filled violence lead to the destruction of the Dharma? There you go, I just used Buddhism to justify punching Nazis, you happy now?
My emotional state is irrelevant.You don't know what you're talking about and instead shoveled straw men on top of the mess you claim to see. if anything I feel somewhat amused you took so much time to make so much hay. :-)

If you want to talk about the philosophical compass of Buddhist philosophy which negates all fundamentalisms then great. If not then I'm sure you have more interesting things to do.
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.

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Grigoris
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Grigoris » Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:18 pm

Quay wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:42 pm
Oh ffs. Enough straw men here to outfit a dozen barns for halloween.
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:17 am
If you want to be a fundamentalist, that is your issue.
Non sequitur and a straw man. Nice.
I am quite happy to rely on my innate discriminating wisdom, I don't need to read a teaching or commentary to figure out whether I should take a dump or not. You may feel that you need to, I don't.
Straw man again with scatalogical adornment. Nice again.
Everybody here is saying that "love is the only (Buddhist) way", forgetting that love, like hate, is an impermanent phenomenon based on causes and conditions and thus ultimately a source of suffering.
Everybody here is not saying that. More straw.
The other thing that people are assuming is that for somebody to want to end Fascism, by any means necessary, that they are necessarily motivated by hatred and not by compassion for the innocent and defenseless victims of Fascist hatred.
What people are assuming this? Another hectare of straw to cover up that assumption.
So... You want me to act like a fundamentalist and justify my (apparently afflicted) views via Buddhism?
No. This is your own oddly narrow projection.
Here it goes: Vajrayana allows for the destruction of enemies of the Dharma. Does hate filled violence lead to the destruction of the Dharma? There you go, I just used Buddhism to justify punching Nazis, you happy now?
My emotional state is irrelevant.You don't know what you're talking about and instead shoveled straw men on top of the mess you claim to see. if anything I feel somewhat amused you took so much time to make so much hay. :-)

If you want to talk about the philosophical compass of Buddhist philosophy which negates all fundamentalisms then great. If not then I'm sure you have more interesting things to do.
It's funny how when we are presented with what we want, generally it does not live up to our expectations.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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conebeckham
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by conebeckham » Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:07 am

THis past week there was a great and eye-opening Frontline épisode about the Alt Right. These people are organized and dangerous.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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kirtu
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by kirtu » Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:59 am

conebeckham wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:07 am
THis past week there was a great and eye-opening Frontline épisode about the Alt Right. These people are organized and dangerous.
The United States will be lucky to at least in part escape something like the hysteria driven hatred that gripped Rwanda - not full blow genocide but larger scale murderous incidents justified by ideology.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Dan74
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Dan74 » Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:41 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:07 am
THis past week there was a great and eye-opening Frontline épisode about the Alt Right. These people are organized and dangerous.
What do you think are the right tactics to combat the alt-right, Cone?

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Virgo
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Virgo » Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:55 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:16 pm

While Gibson has tried to disavow white nationalism, etc., he continues to openly associate with such people. It is part of the Guns and Jesus trip in the US. Ted Nugent is probably his favorite band.
[emphasis mine]

:lol:

Kevin...
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


http://caretoclick.com/clean-the-enviro ... -phone-use

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conebeckham
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by conebeckham » Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:07 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:41 pm
conebeckham wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:07 am
THis past week there was a great and eye-opening Frontline épisode about the Alt Right. These people are organized and dangerous.
What do you think are the right tactics to combat the alt-right, Cone?
Outing them individually.
This is what the reporters have done, and I believe it has had an effect.

Maintaining resistance, and continually calling out Trump and any other elected official when the racists are being defended by government officials.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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