Who is America ?

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Grigoris
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Grigoris » Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:37 pm

Jeff H wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:34 pm
What do you see as a potentially effective form of government that could cultivate and protect the well being of citizens?
Direct democracy with an economic system based on mutual aid.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Grigoris
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Grigoris » Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:37 pm

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:05 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:10 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:04 pm
Dan74 wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:42 pm
Yes, fascists/alt-right are big on memes and that screenshot proves nothing.

But your second comment is telling. I don't think most voters in the US thought about it this way, but the fact that all the various faults of Trump on full public display were not enough of a deal-breaker should be a huge wake-up call to the those in the political establishment who still manage to believe in something other than filling their own pockets.

The Left has failed in the West. Dismally. Bernie Sanders and Jeremy Corbyn are the death throes of the once healthy and inspirational body of progressive politics. What is to come after I can only shudder to think..
I don't think the "left" has failed, I think representative democracy has died (long ago) and all that is left is the corporatist worms feeding on it's moldering corpse.
It's been subverted, yes. "Failed' is too strong a word for me. There are still aspects of it that function to some extent. There is some rule of law (compare to absolute monarchies, for example), there is some responsible government (due to the opposition trying to dig up dirt on it and the media sufficiently free and happy to publish the said dirt), there is some protection of some Human Rights (compare with other places again, not rights such as not to live in poverty, to have meaningful employment, etc) and there is also some separation of powers and checks and balances. It even governs for the people sometimes, I've even seen some of these people (to corrupt an old Soviet joke).

For me, the question is how to preserve the good aspects of democracy and rebuild.
The US is still a country of laws. As long as that remains the case, things will be fine. The problem with trump is that he and his followers do not actually respect laws. This why Trumpism is a form of fascism and must be opposed.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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conebeckham
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by conebeckham » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:48 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:05 pm
Dan74 wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:10 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:04 pm
I don't think the "left" has failed, I think representative democracy has died (long ago) and all that is left is the corporatist worms feeding on it's moldering corpse.
It's been subverted, yes. "Failed' is too strong a word for me. There are still aspects of it that function to some extent. There is some rule of law (compare to absolute monarchies, for example), there is some responsible government (due to the opposition trying to dig up dirt on it and the media sufficiently free and happy to publish the said dirt), there is some protection of some Human Rights (compare with other places again, not rights such as not to live in poverty, to have meaningful employment, etc) and there is also some separation of powers and checks and balances. It even governs for the people sometimes, I've even seen some of these people (to corrupt an old Soviet joke).

For me, the question is how to preserve the good aspects of democracy and rebuild.
The US is still a country of laws. As long as that remains the case, things will be fine. The problem with trump is that he and his followers do not actually respect laws. This why Trumpism is a form of fascism and must be opposed.
On of the many ironies of this "Law and Order Presidency."
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Queequeg
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Queequeg » Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:51 am

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:37 pm
Jeff H wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:34 pm
What do you see as a potentially effective form of government that could cultivate and protect the well being of citizens?
Direct democracy with an economic system based on mutual aid.
Yeah, that's going to work when the US needs to work out a budget.

To be an elected representative does not require any particular expertise or training, but it really needs to be a full time job. Division of labor. Representative democracy is a practical solution.

As for mutual aid, that would be nice. People need to be convinced why that is a good idea.

Those of us who see pratitya samutpada need to get this idea around.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Grigoris
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:02 am

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:51 am
Yeah, that's going to work when the US needs to work out a budget.
A budget? Ain't no budgets in direct democracies. No nation states either. No currencies in mutual aid. I am talking about a radical re-organisation of society, not shuffling goons between desks.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Queequeg
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Queequeg » Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:54 am

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:02 am
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:51 am
Yeah, that's going to work when the US needs to work out a budget.
A budget? Ain't no budgets in direct democracies. No nation states either. No currencies in mutual aid. I am talking about a radical re-organisation of society, not shuffling goons between desks.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Grigoris
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:12 am

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:54 am
media
If we do not dream then we will never find solutions for this reality. If you are happy bouncing between Trumps and Hillarys for the rest of your life (and your offspring's too), then go right ahead.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Queequeg
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Queequeg » Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:20 am

There's no time for dreaming. Especially dreams of rabbits with horns.

We have shit to do.

Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Grigoris
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:29 am

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:20 am
There's no time for dreaming. Especially dreams of rabbits with horns.
In which case your choice is to keep living your nightmare. Sorry, but I think I will pass on your (fatally flawed) plan.

In Greece we say: When you screw an old lady, all you do is waste your sperm.

Bang away my man, bang away...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Queequeg
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Queequeg » Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:57 am

At some point we have to grow up and make the best of what's before us, not what we wish it was when we're alone with our thoughts and reality is a distant distraction, Bartelby.

An imaginary alternative is not an alternative.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Grigoris
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:22 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:57 am
At some point we have to grow up and make the best of what's before us, not what we wish it was when we're alone with our thoughts and reality is a distant distraction, Bartelby.
So now you are saying I am not grown up because I can envisage a reality outside of the narrow confines of the existing situation? To be an adult is remain trapped in a current reality?

Doesn't say much for being a grown up.

Sounds to me that you have confounded the term "conservative" with "adult".
An imaginary alternative is not an alternative.
Hello! All realities start as an idea.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Queequeg
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Queequeg » Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:52 pm

No. You're aiming for a pipe dream. That is my judgment of your words:
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:02 am
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:51 am
Yeah, that's going to work when the US needs to work out a budget.
A budget? Ain't no budgets in direct democracies. No nation states either. No currencies in mutual aid. I am talking about a radical re-organisation of society, not shuffling goons between desks.
That is not happening any time soon, if ever. That is a great idea until you introduce humans into that picture.

Furthermore, I did not introduce the binary choice - you did.
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:12 am
If we do not dream then we will never find solutions for this reality. If you are happy bouncing between Trumps and Hillarys for the rest of your life (and your offspring's too), then go right ahead.
In the meantime, things need to be done, like shifting the global economy to something that is environmentally sustainable, and if possible, remediation of some of the impact we have already made. That means dealing with things as they are, not how we dream them to be. It means getting along with people we don't like and working within systems as they are. That does not preclude other plans of action.

I'm not saying you're a child, but you set up the stark choice between dreaming and action, so we can be one of two things. Children have the luxury of indulging their imagination. And people with trust funds. Adults have to figure out how to put up a roof and put food on the table, deal with real situations and consequences. I well aware that none of us falls squarely in either category.

If being practical is "conservative", I'm a rose by any name.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Grigoris
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:07 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:52 pm
I'm not saying you're a child, but you set up the stark choice between dreaming and action...
No I don't. I act according to my dream.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Queequeg
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Queequeg » Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:11 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:07 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:52 pm
I'm not saying you're a child, but you set up the stark choice between dreaming and action...
No I don't. I act according to my dream.
OK.

But I don't get the credit for imaginatively trying to take action? I'm just a sellout committed to the TrumpClinton merry go round? Because I cast doubt on your participatory democracy dream?
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Grigoris
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:18 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:11 pm
But I don't get the credit for imaginatively trying to take action? I'm just a sellout committed to the TrumpClinton merry go round? Because I cast doubt on your participatory democracy dream?
No, because you said:
Representative democracy is a practical solution.
Because you fail to acknowledge that representative democracy is what brought us here.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Queequeg
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Queequeg » Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:56 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:18 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:11 pm
But I don't get the credit for imaginatively trying to take action? I'm just a sellout committed to the TrumpClinton merry go round? Because I cast doubt on your participatory democracy dream?
No, because you said:
Representative democracy is a practical solution.
Because you fail to acknowledge that representative democracy is what brought us here.
Um. Neither did you.
Grigoris wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:17 pm
Dan74 wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:10 pm
For me, the question is how to preserve the good aspects of democracy and rebuild.
I don't think it is worth rebuilding. The problem is that since it was built on an unsteady basis (global capitalist colonialism) it was doomed to failure. Representative democracy is dead. The Hillarys and the Trumps are just animated corpses.
Now you change your tune?

:shrug:
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Grigoris
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:14 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:56 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:18 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:11 pm
But I don't get the credit for imaginatively trying to take action? I'm just a sellout committed to the TrumpClinton merry go round? Because I cast doubt on your participatory democracy dream?
No, because you said:
Representative democracy is a practical solution.
Because you fail to acknowledge that representative democracy is what brought us here.
Um. Neither did you.
Grigoris wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:17 pm
Dan74 wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:10 pm
For me, the question is how to preserve the good aspects of democracy and rebuild.
I don't think it is worth rebuilding. The problem is that since it was built on an unsteady basis (global capitalist colonialism) it was doomed to failure. Representative democracy is dead. The Hillarys and the Trumps are just animated corpses.
Now you change your tune?

:shrug:
I fail to see how my two statement are contradictory.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Queequeg
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Queequeg » Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:12 pm

Because your statement is that the present condition is not due to representative democracy. According to you, its dead. How does a dead thing do anything?

You posit a cause for the death of representative democracy, global capitalist colonialism, that doomed it from the start. Representative democracy really has nothing to do with where we are. Your diagnosis is that global capitalist colonialism brought us to where we are.

I don't know, just trying to make sense of what you're saying.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Grigoris
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:28 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:12 pm
Because your statement is that the present condition is not due to representative democracy. According to you, its dead. How does a dead thing do anything?

You posit a cause for the death of representative democracy, global capitalist colonialism, that doomed it from the start. Representative democracy really has nothing to do with where we are. Your diagnosis is that global capitalist colonialism brought us to where we are.

I don't know, just trying to make sense of what you're saying.
You are being overly literal. What if I said it is dead now, or it is in it's death throes? Would that make you feel better?

I also find it difficult to separate representative democracy from global capitalism, imperialism and colonialism, as it has never really existed without the presence of these.

As far as I am concerned politics and economics cannot be separated.

That is why I propose a political and an economic system as a solution.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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