Direct democracy with an economic system based on mutual aid.
Who is America ?
Re: Who is America ?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Who is America ?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Who is America ?
The US is still a country of laws. As long as that remains the case, things will be fine. The problem with trump is that he and his followers do not actually respect laws. This why Trumpism is a form of fascism and must be opposed.Dan74 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:10 pmIt's been subverted, yes. "Failed' is too strong a word for me. There are still aspects of it that function to some extent. There is some rule of law (compare to absolute monarchies, for example), there is some responsible government (due to the opposition trying to dig up dirt on it and the media sufficiently free and happy to publish the said dirt), there is some protection of some Human Rights (compare with other places again, not rights such as not to live in poverty, to have meaningful employment, etc) and there is also some separation of powers and checks and balances. It even governs for the people sometimes, I've even seen some of these people (to corrupt an old Soviet joke).Grigoris wrote: ↑Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:04 pmI don't think the "left" has failed, I think representative democracy has died (long ago) and all that is left is the corporatist worms feeding on it's moldering corpse.Dan74 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:42 pm Yes, fascists/alt-right are big on memes and that screenshot proves nothing.
But your second comment is telling. I don't think most voters in the US thought about it this way, but the fact that all the various faults of Trump on full public display were not enough of a deal-breaker should be a huge wake-up call to the those in the political establishment who still manage to believe in something other than filling their own pockets.
The Left has failed in the West. Dismally. Bernie Sanders and Jeremy Corbyn are the death throes of the once healthy and inspirational body of progressive politics. What is to come after I can only shudder to think..
For me, the question is how to preserve the good aspects of democracy and rebuild.
- conebeckham
- Posts: 5694
- Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
- Location: Bay Area, CA, USA
Re: Who is America ?
On of the many ironies of this "Law and Order Presidency."Malcolm wrote: ↑Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:05 pmThe US is still a country of laws. As long as that remains the case, things will be fine. The problem with trump is that he and his followers do not actually respect laws. This why Trumpism is a form of fascism and must be opposed.Dan74 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:10 pmIt's been subverted, yes. "Failed' is too strong a word for me. There are still aspects of it that function to some extent. There is some rule of law (compare to absolute monarchies, for example), there is some responsible government (due to the opposition trying to dig up dirt on it and the media sufficiently free and happy to publish the said dirt), there is some protection of some Human Rights (compare with other places again, not rights such as not to live in poverty, to have meaningful employment, etc) and there is also some separation of powers and checks and balances. It even governs for the people sometimes, I've even seen some of these people (to corrupt an old Soviet joke).
For me, the question is how to preserve the good aspects of democracy and rebuild.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
Re: Who is America ?
Yeah, that's going to work when the US needs to work out a budget.
To be an elected representative does not require any particular expertise or training, but it really needs to be a full time job. Division of labor. Representative democracy is a practical solution.
As for mutual aid, that would be nice. People need to be convinced why that is a good idea.
Those of us who see pratitya samutpada need to get this idea around.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Re: Who is America ?
A budget? Ain't no budgets in direct democracies. No nation states either. No currencies in mutual aid. I am talking about a radical re-organisation of society, not shuffling goons between desks.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Who is America ?
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Re: Who is America ?
If we do not dream then we will never find solutions for this reality. If you are happy bouncing between Trumps and Hillarys for the rest of your life (and your offspring's too), then go right ahead.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Who is America ?
There's no time for dreaming. Especially dreams of rabbits with horns.
We have shit to do.
We have shit to do.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Re: Who is America ?
In which case your choice is to keep living your nightmare. Sorry, but I think I will pass on your (fatally flawed) plan.
In Greece we say: When you screw an old lady, all you do is waste your sperm.
Bang away my man, bang away...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Who is America ?
At some point we have to grow up and make the best of what's before us, not what we wish it was when we're alone with our thoughts and reality is a distant distraction, Bartelby.
An imaginary alternative is not an alternative.
An imaginary alternative is not an alternative.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Re: Who is America ?
So now you are saying I am not grown up because I can envisage a reality outside of the narrow confines of the existing situation? To be an adult is remain trapped in a current reality?
Doesn't say much for being a grown up.
Sounds to me that you have confounded the term "conservative" with "adult".
Hello! All realities start as an idea.An imaginary alternative is not an alternative.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Who is America ?
No. You're aiming for a pipe dream. That is my judgment of your words:
Furthermore, I did not introduce the binary choice - you did.
I'm not saying you're a child, but you set up the stark choice between dreaming and action, so we can be one of two things. Children have the luxury of indulging their imagination. And people with trust funds. Adults have to figure out how to put up a roof and put food on the table, deal with real situations and consequences. I well aware that none of us falls squarely in either category.
If being practical is "conservative", I'm a rose by any name.
That is not happening any time soon, if ever. That is a great idea until you introduce humans into that picture.
Furthermore, I did not introduce the binary choice - you did.
In the meantime, things need to be done, like shifting the global economy to something that is environmentally sustainable, and if possible, remediation of some of the impact we have already made. That means dealing with things as they are, not how we dream them to be. It means getting along with people we don't like and working within systems as they are. That does not preclude other plans of action.
I'm not saying you're a child, but you set up the stark choice between dreaming and action, so we can be one of two things. Children have the luxury of indulging their imagination. And people with trust funds. Adults have to figure out how to put up a roof and put food on the table, deal with real situations and consequences. I well aware that none of us falls squarely in either category.
If being practical is "conservative", I'm a rose by any name.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Re: Who is America ?
No I don't. I act according to my dream.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Who is America ?
OK.
But I don't get the credit for imaginatively trying to take action? I'm just a sellout committed to the TrumpClinton merry go round? Because I cast doubt on your participatory democracy dream?
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Re: Who is America ?
No, because you said:
Because you fail to acknowledge that representative democracy is what brought us here.Representative democracy is a practical solution.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Who is America ?
Um. Neither did you.
Now you change your tune?
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Re: Who is America ?
I fail to see how my two statement are contradictory.Queequeg wrote: ↑Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:56 pmUm. Neither did you.
Now you change your tune?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Who is America ?
Because your statement is that the present condition is not due to representative democracy. According to you, its dead. How does a dead thing do anything?
You posit a cause for the death of representative democracy, global capitalist colonialism, that doomed it from the start. Representative democracy really has nothing to do with where we are. Your diagnosis is that global capitalist colonialism brought us to where we are.
I don't know, just trying to make sense of what you're saying.
You posit a cause for the death of representative democracy, global capitalist colonialism, that doomed it from the start. Representative democracy really has nothing to do with where we are. Your diagnosis is that global capitalist colonialism brought us to where we are.
I don't know, just trying to make sense of what you're saying.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Re: Who is America ?
You are being overly literal. What if I said it is dead now, or it is in it's death throes? Would that make you feel better?Queequeg wrote: ↑Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:12 pm Because your statement is that the present condition is not due to representative democracy. According to you, its dead. How does a dead thing do anything?
You posit a cause for the death of representative democracy, global capitalist colonialism, that doomed it from the start. Representative democracy really has nothing to do with where we are. Your diagnosis is that global capitalist colonialism brought us to where we are.
I don't know, just trying to make sense of what you're saying.
I also find it difficult to separate representative democracy from global capitalism, imperialism and colonialism, as it has never really existed without the presence of these.
As far as I am concerned politics and economics cannot be separated.
That is why I propose a political and an economic system as a solution.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde