Who is America ?

Casual conversation between friends. Anything goes (almost).
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Queequeg
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Queequeg » Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:31 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:21 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:06 pm
That is far fetched. You'd have to make that connection. You'd have to identify a continuous militarist tradition in the black community.
Reality is far fetched??? And, no, you don't have to identify a continuous militarist tradition. These things grow and wane. Just like the MLK thing grew and waned.
You seemed to make a direct connection. That's for you to prove.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

PeterC
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by PeterC » Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:55 am

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:06 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:44 pm
People here are also ignoring the long armed struggle waged by black Americans against slavery, including the black battalions in the Union army.
That is far fetched. You'd have to make that connection. You'd have to identify a continuous militarist tradition in the black community.
The military link is perhaps tenuous, but I would refer you to Justice Thomas' concurrence in McDonald vs. Chicago in 2009, where he made a long and eloquent argument in favor of 2nd amendment rights on precisely the grounds that black people need the right to bear arms for the purposes of self-defence. This is Justice Thomas talking - not BLM, antifa or the black panthers - and his arguments go back to the 19th century.
"The use of firearms for self-defense was often the only way black citizens could protect themselves from mob violence. As Eli Cooper, one target of such violence, is said to have explained, “‘[t]he Negro has been run over for fifty years, but it must stop now, and pistols and shotguns are the only weapons to stop a mob.’” Church Burnings Follow Negro Agitator’s Lynching, Chicago Defender, Sept. 6, 1919, in id., at 124. Sometimes, as in Cooper’s case, selfdefense did not succeed. He was dragged from his home by a mob and killed as his wife looked on. Ibid. But at other times, the use of firearms allowed targets of mob violence to survive. One man recalled the night during his childhood when his father stood armed at a jail until morning to ward off lynchers. See Cottrol, 354. The experience left him with a sense, “not ‘of powerlessness, but of the “possibilities of salvation”’” that came from standing up to intimidation."

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Supramundane
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Supramundane » Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:39 am

this whole thread is eye-opening... but not in a good way

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Dan74
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Dan74 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:59 am

Supramundane wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:39 am
this whole thread is eye-opening... but not in a good way
Eye-opening is always in a good way. Learning about what humans being think, so we are hardly representative of anything, except maybe the interwebs Buddhist fora

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Malcolm
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:55 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:50 pm

Greg, I am all for robust action. Not a fence-sitter or apologist here (yes, maybe a mod shouldn't engage in ad homs, come on!), had my share of activism, though not violence, at least not against living beings. I am just 1. not at all sure that violent tactics will lead to desired results 2. not sure it is the right thing to do anyway. Mostly for me it's about 1., but 2 is also a factor, because people who can be helped will get hurt when the lines between right wing "buffoons" and fascists and neo-Nazis get blurred, when everything becomes so black-and-white, and a fellow like me becomes an apologist ("with us or against us"). For a hammer, everything looks like a nail, and to some of us, sadly, every rightwinger is a Nazi.
No Dan, not every person with right wing views is a fascist. William Buckley, for example, was not a fascist. Ronald Reagan was not a fascist. The GOP is not a fascist party, even though they are utterly gutless these days.

Donald Trump, however, is a fascist, and it is clearly evident in his deeds and words.

Fascists are bad for the world in every way possible. They should be, as Q points out, doxxed, outed, shamed, etc. And if they ever become serious force, they should be opposed with serious force. Why? They don't believe in Democracy and democratic values. They exploit the latter to overthrow the former. In the meantime, I am not going to lose sleep over Antifa showing up and shutting down these fascist pricks. Why? I think it is a good thing that Antifa routes these people. This weekend marks the anniversary of the murder of Heather Heyer, a nonviolent protester. She was murdered by these pitiful excuses for human beings:

Image

With respect to Q's opinion that the Alt-right is just a bunch of clowns in Portland, this really underestimates the real situation in our country. Peter Beinart wrote last year:
Second, antifa activists don’t wield anything like the alt-right’s power. White, Christian supremacy has been government policy in the United States for much of American history. Anarchism has not. That’s why there are no statues of Mikhail Bakunin in America’s parks and government buildings. Antifa boasts no equivalent to Steve Bannon, who called his old publication, Breitbart, “the platform for the alt-right,” and now works in the White House. It boasts no equivalent to Attorney General Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III, who bears the middle name of a Confederate general and the first name of the Confederacy’s president, and who allegedly called the NAACP “un-American.” It boasts no equivalent to Alex Jones, who Donald Trump praised as “amazing.” Even if antifa’s vision of society were as noxious as the “alt-right’s,” it has vastly less power to make that vision a reality.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... fa/537048/

So, I am glad that Antifa shows up and shows that in the America, fascists do not get a pass. Their views are noxious, and in my opinion, are not protected speech when they are brought into the commons. If people wish to have sick Hitlerian fantasies in their double wides and chatrooms, I can't do anything about that. But at least we can keep their hateful speech out of public spaces. And until our legal system catches up with the 21st century, until that time I an glad there is a solid Anti-Fascist movement in this country, just as there was in the 1920's and 30's, when the ugly face of Fascism first reared its head in the world.

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Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

PeterC
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by PeterC » Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:59 pm



Simpler, better times...

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Queequeg
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Queequeg » Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:24 pm

Given the death of Heather Heyer, the humor takes a hit.

But, I 100% endorse mocking the shit out of those bozos. Comedians have a vital role to play, making fun of these people until they cry and ensuring that the kids grow up knowing its not cool to march around dressed like Best Buy salesmen carrying tiki torches.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Queequeg
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Queequeg » Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:23 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:55 pm
Fascists are bad for the world in every way possible. They should be, as Q points out, doxxed, outed, shamed, etc. And if they ever become serious force, they should be opposed with serious force. Why? They don't believe in Democracy and democratic values. They exploit the latter to overthrow the former.
Here is the problem with fighting in the streets:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... ft/534192/
Antifa believes it is pursuing the opposite of authoritarianism. Many of its activists oppose the very notion of a centralized state. But in the name of protecting the vulnerable, antifascists have granted themselves the authority to decide which Americans may publicly assemble and which may not. That authority rests on no democratic foundation. Unlike the politicians they revile, the men and women of antifa cannot be voted out of office. Generally, they don’t even disclose their names.

Antifa’s perceived legitimacy is inversely correlated with the government’s. Which is why, in the Trump era, the movement is growing like never before. As the president derides and subverts liberal-democratic norms, progressives face a choice. They can recommit to the rules of fair play, and try to limit the president’s corrosive effect, though they will often fail. Or they can, in revulsion or fear or righteous rage, try to deny racists and Trump supporters their political rights. From Middlebury to Berkeley to Portland, the latter approach is on the rise, especially among young people.

Revulsion, fear, and rage are understandable. But one thing is clear. The people preventing Republicans from safely assembling on the streets of Portland may consider themselves fierce opponents of the authoritarianism growing on the American right. In truth, however, they are its unlikeliest allies.
That's also Beinart.

The problem is that Antifa's tactics undermine the rule of law, which is fine for Antifa since many are anarchists. That's not good for the rest of us. The weakening of the state actually brings us closer to the kinds of conditions where violent groups could actually take advantage. Anarchy actually just opens the way for thugs to be violent. It would be a tragedy if the violence actually does spiral out of control - that's the opportunity an authoritarian group would look for. Cops pulling back and letting the fight rage will end with bodies in the street. Violence has a tendency of escalating with revenge and recrimination. The state would need to come down even harder to bring order back.

We have a serious problem in that the Federal government has been hijacked by a fascist enabler, possibly an actual fascist, though I can't imagine that he would actually understand what that means. We have a Republican party that has completely sold out.

We need a responsible government, one that will bring the weight of the Justice Department down on these thugs. They can say what they want, but the moment they commit crimes, bring RICO down on the entire operation. There are ways to crack down - we need the political will to do that.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Malcolm
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:35 pm

Image
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:06 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:23 pm
The people preventing Republicans from safely assembling on the streets of Portland may consider themselves fierce opponents of the authoritarianism growing on the American right. In truth, however, they are its unlikeliest allies.
That's also Beinart.
He is wrong, on this score. The people who assembled last week in Portland were fascist thugs.
The problem is that Antifa's tactics undermine the rule of law, which is fine for Antifa since many are anarchists. That's not good for the rest of us. The weakening of the state actually brings us closer to the kinds of conditions where violent groups could actually take advantage. Anarchy actually just opens the way for thugs to be violent. It would be a tragedy if the violence actually does spiral out of control - that's the opportunity an authoritarian group would look for. Cops pulling back and letting the fight rage will end with bodies in the street. Violence has a tendency of escalating with revenge and recrimination. The state would need to come down even harder to bring order back.
MLK deliberately sowed disorder to create this situation, to expose the racist violence that was being used against black people. Fascists are allow right of free assembly, but peace groups are restricted to "free speech zones." This is not what founders intended at all.

The government is derelict in its duties to prevent assemblies of fascist thugs. Since they are derelict in this respect, the citizenry must stand up against them, and the police, if necessary.

We have a serious problem in that the Federal government has been hijacked by a fascist enabler, possibly an actual fascist, though I can't imagine that he would actually understand what that means. We have a Republican party that has completely sold out.

We need a responsible government, one that will bring the weight of the Justice Department down on these thugs. They can say what they want, but the moment they commit crimes, bring RICO down on the entire operation. There are ways to crack down - we need the political will to do that.
There must be civil disobedience against these assemblies of fascists, and these people ought to be met in the street. If they provoke violence, which in fact is their chief aim, people have a right to defend themselves and those around them, as a recent court case connected with Charlottesville found.

Now, if a nazi feels they've been unfairly punched in the face, give them their day in court so the full, disgusting facts of their perverted beliefs can be aired, as also happened in Charlottesville. I think they will have a hard time finding a jury willing to convict the assailant in many places in the US.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Grigoris
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Grigoris » Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:56 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:23 pm
The weakening of the state actually brings us closer to the kinds of conditions where violent groups could actually take advantage.
The DEMOCRATIC VALUES of the state have already been weakened, from the inside. ANTIFA actions may lead to the strengthening of the autocratic state, if the state is being run by Fascists sympathisers.

Here in Greece, after the conservative New Democracy party was kicked out of power, the leftist SYRIZA party did not weaken the state, they just brought it back to some semblance of democracy. Especially by putting a leash on the police and severing their direct ties to the neo-Nazi Golden Dawn. Strangely enough the NEED for ANTIFA action has dropped since the restoration of a semblance of democracy and the criminalisation of neo-Nazi actions.
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Queequeg
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Queequeg » Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:01 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:06 pm
He is wrong, on this score. The people who assembled last week in Portland were fascist thugs.
That article is from 2017. He was talking about another event.
MLK deliberately sowed disorder to create this situation, to expose the racist violence that was being used against black people.


No. This mischaracterizes MLKJr. He did not sow disorder. He non-violently disobeyed laws which he and his colleagues identified as unjust. They did it in an orderly fashion.
Fascists are allow right of free assembly, but peace groups are restricted to "free speech zones." This is not what founders intended at all.
I wouldn't put it that way, but you do make a good point.

Civil disobedience and protest overlap in some respects, but they are not the same.
The government is derelict in its duties to prevent assemblies of fascist thugs. Since they are derelict in this respect, the citizenry must stand up against them, and the police, if necessary.
The First Amendment guarantees freedom of speech, assembly, etc. Fascists are protected in so far as their right to speak, assemble, etc. Assault is a crime. Mayhem, rioting, etc. are crimes. Wearing a mask in public in some jurisdictions is a crime. Conspiracies to commit crimes are crimes. The police need to be made to enforce the criminal laws.

If the police are not doing their jobs, then its time to vote and change things. Simple to say, I realize its more complicated. But that is a different conversation than we are having now.
There must be civil disobedience against these assemblies of fascists, and these people ought to be met in the street. If they provoke violence, which in fact is their chief aim, people have a right to defend themselves and those around them, as a recent court case connected with Charlottesville found.
Protesting against these groups may or may not be civil disobedience. If for instance, Unite the Right plans a march, people can go protest. If permits are required to protest and the municipality refuses to give a permit, then showing up would be civil disobedience. In any event, the right to self defense is again a distinct issue. Depending on the state, self defense has certain formalities. For instance, in most states that more or less follow common law, one must first retreat before resorting to force. This is different in places like Florida where they have "Stand your Ground" statutes.
Now, if a nazi feels they've been unfairly punched in the face, give them their day in court so the full, disgusting facts of their perverted beliefs can be aired, as also happened in Charlottesville. I think they will have a hard time finding a jury willing to convict the assailant in many places in the US.
Fairness is generally not really a consideration in criminal assault and battery. The question with regard to the victim would be if the contact was welcomed or not. The assailant would have certain defenses.

The Nazi might have a civil tort claim - in that case a sort of question of fairness might be at issue. It would be framed as justification, unclean hands, etc.

Anyway, my point is not to nit pick the understanding of criminal and civil laws, but rather to point out that these matters ought to be dealt with through the rule of law. If the rule of law fails, then one might need to resort to any number of options - civil disobedience would be an option. Secession is another.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Malcolm
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:19 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:01 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:06 pm
He is wrong, on this score. The people who assembled last week in Portland were fascist thugs.
That article is from 2017. He was talking about another event.
Ok, even so.
MLK deliberately sowed disorder to create this situation, to expose the racist violence that was being used against black people.


No. This mischaracterizes MLKJr. He did not sow disorder. He non-violently disobeyed laws which he and his colleagues identified as unjust. They did it in an orderly fashion.
He deliberately sent children into the streets of Alabama, on purpose, knowing it would provoke violence. He did it with full recognition of what he was doing, as a deliberate strategy.
But the civil rights movement wasn’t seen as nonviolent in its day — and for good reason. The most jarring evidence of this came just a month after King’s Birmingham jail letter. In May 1963, movement organizers assembled black children , some still in pigtails, to march through the streets of Birmingham and confront Bull Connor’s violent police force. It was a controversial tactic within the movement, but organizers must have known that images of jailed, beaten and cowering children would affect hearts, force a response from officials and move the movement toward its goals.

“They couldn’t have been ignorant of the terrible response,” says King biographer and New York University historian David Levering Lewis. “King and his inner circle appreciated the probable certainty of violence on the part of the establishment to trigger responses that they wanted, in terms of legislation and policies.” The children called it “D-Day.”

Connor didn’t disappoint. He attacked the marchers with German shepherds and baton-wielding policemen. Connor’s army funneled hundreds of children and teenagers into overcrowded jail cells. Still, the kids returned to the streets the next day. And the day after that. Malcolm X, whom history treats as the movement’s violent alter ego, criticized King for the event, saying that “real men don’t put their children on the firing line.” King, on the other hand, called it “one of the wisest moves we made.”

The Children’s Crusade changed the way the movement was covered by the press. Where the crushing effects of segregated schools hadn’t won hearts, where brutal, state-sanctioned beatings of hymn-singing black men and women hadn’t gained sympathy, the nation couldn’t ignore the images of children recoiling from the raised batons of sneering police officers. Only the most distressing type of violence worked.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/postever ... a6b988bdb0

There must be civil disobedience against these assemblies of fascists, and these people ought to be met in the street. If they provoke violence, which in fact is their chief aim, people have a right to defend themselves and those around them, as a recent court case connected with Charlottesville found.
Protesting against these groups may or may not be civil disobedience. If for instance, Unite the Right plans a march, people can go protest. If permits are required to protest and the municipality refuses to give a permit, then showing up would be civil disobedience.

Yup, that is what I am talking about, and screw permits.

In any event, the right to self defense is again a distinct issue. Depending on the state, self defense has certain formalities. For instance, in most states that more or less follow common law, one must first retreat before resorting to force. This is different in places like Florida where they have "Stand your Ground" statutes.
You should review the judgement in a Charlottesville case where one of the alt-right guys charged an protestor with assault, and it was found that the defendant was rightly not guilty of assault because he was defending a third person against an assault by the plaintiff upon that third person.
If the rule of law fails, then one might need to resort to any number of options - civil disobedience would be an option. Secession is another.
Under this president, the rule of law is being perverted and failing. Civil disobedience is a must.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Queequeg
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Queequeg » Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:42 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:19 pm
He deliberately sent children into the streets of Alabama, on purpose, knowing it would provoke violence. He did it with full recognition of what he was doing, as a deliberate strategy.
This is different than "sowing disorder." I'm pushing back on your imprecise language.
screw permits.
Sometimes, protesting is just wanting to make a statement. Maybe you want to smooth things out so that the event can be family friendly. Other cases, you want to make an impact, so you go ahead with a plan for civil disobedience. Depends on the statement you are trying to make.
You should review the judgement in a Charlottesville case where one of the alt-right guys charged an protestor with assault, and it was found that the defendant was rightly not guilty of assault because he was defending a third person against an assault by the plaintiff upon that third person.
There's a lot of subtlety in the laws. You're talking about that black kid who was getting beat up in the parking lot. I don't know the details, but the kid was already getting beat up, he had no where to run to, so when those other people came to his rescue, that's a different set of facts. There must be some defense in the VA penal code.
Under this president, the rule of law is being perverted and failing. Civil disobedience is a must.
Maybe.

Back in the 80's in New York there was a group called Missing Foundation. I was a little too young at the time, but from what I understand, they were basically the squatters in the East Village. They were involved with the Tompkins Sq. riots and clashes with police at the squats around there. They had some slogan, "We won't be civilized in this f*cking city!" They were straight up gutter punk anarchists.

Trump's BS is not license to just disobey laws. There is definitely stuff that needs to be resisted.

Case by case. Issue by issue. And it has to be reasoned and disciplined. Anarchy would be a whole other problem.

Again, rule of law must be preserved. If we lose that, then we lose the whole thing.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Malcolm
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:13 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:42 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:19 pm
He deliberately sent children into the streets of Alabama, on purpose, knowing it would provoke violence. He did it with full recognition of what he was doing, as a deliberate strategy.
This is different than "sowing disorder." I'm pushing back on your imprecise language.
Oh, he pretty much sowed disorder, all right.

You should review the judgement in a Charlottesville case where one of the alt-right guys charged an protestor with assault, and it was found that the defendant was rightly not guilty of assault because he was defending a third person against an assault by the plaintiff upon that third person.
There's a lot of subtlety in the laws. You're talking about that black kid who was getting beat up in the parking lot. I don't know the details, but the kid was already getting beat up, he had no where to run to, so when those other people came to his rescue, that's a different set of facts. There must be some defense in the VA penal code.
Naw, it was a different case. Not the case with the young man who was brutally beaten in the garage.
Again, rule of law must be preserved. If we lose that, then we lose the whole thing.
Yes, that is what we were told in the 1930's. Bollocks to that mate. If the "rule of law" leads to further growth of the alt-right, it will not be a country we want to live in anymore.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:35 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:42 pm

Back in the 80's in New York there was a group called Missing Foundation. I was a little too young at the time, but from what I understand, they were basically the squatters in the East Village. They were involved with the Tompkins Sq. riots and clashes with police at the squats around there. They had some slogan, "We won't be civilized in this f*cking city!" They were straight up gutter punk anarchists.
You were a little too young to understand that incident. The police cause that riot.
New York City's Police Department deserves no praise for its handling of a demonstration in Tompkins Square Park in the early morning of Aug. 7. But Commissioner Ward and Police Department officials who prepared a report on the incident deserve credit for candor.

The document makes clear that what occurred was indeed the ''police riot'' some have charged. As the confrontation began to escalate, a panicky captain, finding himself in command because his deputy chief had left the scene, issued a ''10-85 forthwith'' radio call for help.

''This call is widely interpreted as being of an extreme emergency nature,'' the report says. Hundreds of police flooded into the area, though they ''had not been briefed about the event . . . were not equipped for such an encounter . . . were not under the direct supervision of a superior officer.''

Once they arrived, no one sought to form them into teams and supervise their deployment. ''Some officers obviously responded badly to these conditions,'' the report says, ''taking excessive independent actions and attempting to evade accountability by concealing their identities.''

Mr. Ward has forced the retirement of Deputy Chief Thomas Darcy, who left the scene; the transfer of Deputy Inspector Joseph Wodarski, and the retraining of Capt. Gerald McNamara, who issued the 10-85 call. The Civilian Complaint Review Board, meanwhile, has recommended departmental charges against two officers and will continue to sift 100 more complaints.

But the report makes clear that the riot reflected problems beyond individual conduct. It called for more training in crowd control and special units for riot duty. It also pointed to the department's recent rapid expansion. Thousands of new recruits lack experience on the street; the ranks of seasoned supervisors remain thin.

Those problems pose profound challenges for police management. The riot showed how dangerous the failure to recognize and confront them can be. The report suggests a commendable willingness to do so.
https://www.nytimes.com/1988/08/26/opin ... -riot.html

The Missing Foundation was an industrial music band. KMFDM used to be part of that band for a short while. Pretty horrendous music. They were four guys. Not an anarchist collective. They were involved with anti-gentrfication movement.

As of 2005, Missing was a homeless guy in NYC.

http://thevillager.com/villager_119/art ... enter.html

Now apparently he lives in Denver and has art in over 30 museums.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:44 pm

This is hopeful:

And that’s big, according to Hankes, because those still left are not down with the rally. Many posts about DC’s Unite the Right rally call it a “lawsuit trap.” Remember, there was a civil rights suit brought against the organizers of Unite the Right, and the judge has issued an opinion that the organizers had conspired to violate the civil rights of Charlottesville citizens, a conspiracy that could legally be tied to the death of Heather Heyer. “If I were the folks thinking about participating, I could be quite worried that my participation could link me to violent activity that violates civil rights,” says Richard Schragger, who specializes in Constitutional and local government law at the University of Virginia School of Law. “Even if you’re exercising your First Amendment rights, you’re responsible for the outcomes.”

The DC Unite the Right rally is shaping up to be a public announcement of a new, more cautious alt-right zeitgeist. It’s fuchsia and teal website looks like an ‘80s video game. The organizer, Jason Kessler—who, according to Hanke, is now something of a pariah—has banned the swastikas and the other symbols of white supremacy that so many objected to at the last rally. Kessler is trying to massage the movement into something (somewhat) more palatable, similar to the surviving organizations Identity Evropa and Patriot Front. Identity Evropa claims to protect cultural heritage, Patriot Front claims their prejudice is patriotism, and Kessler claims to be a civil rights advocate for white people.

All of which are lies that tell the truth: the open racism we all saw at Charlottesville is being slowly pushed underground.
But of course, then there was this yesterday:



And David Duke's tweet:

Image
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Dan74
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Dan74 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:54 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:55 pm
Dan74 wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:50 pm

Greg, I am all for robust action. Not a fence-sitter or apologist here (yes, maybe a mod shouldn't engage in ad homs, come on!), had my share of activism, though not violence, at least not against living beings. I am just 1. not at all sure that violent tactics will lead to desired results 2. not sure it is the right thing to do anyway. Mostly for me it's about 1., but 2 is also a factor, because people who can be helped will get hurt when the lines between right wing "buffoons" and fascists and neo-Nazis get blurred, when everything becomes so black-and-white, and a fellow like me becomes an apologist ("with us or against us"). For a hammer, everything looks like a nail, and to some of us, sadly, every rightwinger is a Nazi.
No Dan, not every person with right wing views is a fascist. William Buckley, for example, was not a fascist. Ronald Reagan was not a fascist. The GOP is not a fascist party, even though they are utterly gutless these days.

Donald Trump, however, is a fascist, and it is clearly evident in his deeds and words.

Fascists are bad for the world in every way possible. They should be, as Q points out, doxxed, outed, shamed, etc. And if they ever become serious force, they should be opposed with serious force. Why? They don't believe in Democracy and democratic values. They exploit the latter to overthrow the former. In the meantime, I am not going to lose sleep over Antifa showing up and shutting down these fascist pricks. Why? I think it is a good thing that Antifa routes these people. This weekend marks the anniversary of the murder of Heather Heyer, a nonviolent protester. She was murdered by these pitiful excuses for human beings:

Image

With respect to Q's opinion that the Alt-right is just a bunch of clowns in Portland, this really underestimates the real situation in our country. Peter Beinart wrote last year:
Second, antifa activists don’t wield anything like the alt-right’s power. White, Christian supremacy has been government policy in the United States for much of American history. Anarchism has not. That’s why there are no statues of Mikhail Bakunin in America’s parks and government buildings. Antifa boasts no equivalent to Steve Bannon, who called his old publication, Breitbart, “the platform for the alt-right,” and now works in the White House. It boasts no equivalent to Attorney General Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III, who bears the middle name of a Confederate general and the first name of the Confederacy’s president, and who allegedly called the NAACP “un-American.” It boasts no equivalent to Alex Jones, who Donald Trump praised as “amazing.” Even if antifa’s vision of society were as noxious as the “alt-right’s,” it has vastly less power to make that vision a reality.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... fa/537048/

So, I am glad that Antifa shows up and shows that in the America, fascists do not get a pass. Their views are noxious, and in my opinion, are not protected speech when they are brought into the commons. If people wish to have sick Hitlerian fantasies in their double wides and chatrooms, I can't do anything about that. But at least we can keep their hateful speech out of public spaces. And until our legal system catches up with the 21st century, until that time I an glad there is a solid Anti-Fascist movement in this country, just as there was in the 1920's and 30's, when the ugly face of Fascism first reared its head in the world.

Image
I guess where you and I differ, Malcolm, is in the suffix. For you it is "ists" and for me it is "ism". Bashing the folks you perceive as fascists, without really discriminating between those who truly deserve to wear this label and their unfortunate comrades, does not exterminate the ideology. Nor does it win the battle for the hearts and mind, but quite likely the opposite. When the supposed thugs become the victims, the bystander folks who can't quite parse the ideologies like you and me, may well become more vulnerable to the visceral appeal of the former.


What I see as paramount is to defeat fascism as an ideology once and for all. To win the battle for the hearts and minds of the ordinary folks. Much harder than bashing a few heads in at a rally, but much more important, IMO.

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Malcolm
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Re: Who is America ?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:10 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:54 pm
What I see as paramount is to defeat fascism as an ideology once and for all. To win the battle for the hearts and minds of the ordinary folks. Much harder than bashing a few heads in at a rally, but much more important, IMO.
Dan, you are focusing on the wrong things. You are criticizing Anti-fascists when you should be supporting them, all because you are worried that someone might get hurt. Look at who is inflicting actual damage on human beings.
Any discussion about violence and antifa must note that since 1990 there have been 450 deaths caused by white supremacist violence, compared to only one believed to be related to far-left activity in the US. While property damage, minor clashes and a few neo-Nazi black eyes drew cries of leftist extremism in the last year, a white supremacist traveled to New York with the aim to murder black men. He succeeded in stabbing and killing a homeless man. Another white supremacist in Portland killed two men who were standing up for two Muslim women on a train. A Milo Yiannopolous fan in a Make America Great Again cap shot and wounded an anti-fascist counter-protester in the stomach outside a MIlo talk in Seattle. To name a few. In the ten days that followed Trump’s election alone, the Southern Poverty Law Center reported 900 separate incidents of bias and violence against immigrants, Latinos, African Americans, women, LGBT people, Muslims, and Jews.

Antifa activists are criticized for responding with counter-violence. Centrist liberals urge that we follow Michelle Obama’s gracious direction: “When they go low, we go high.” They urge debate with fascists, and decry violent or confrontational intervention.

...

Liberal appeals to truth will not break through to a fascist epistemology of power and domination—these are Spencer and his ilk’s first principles. And it is this aspect of fascism that needs to be grasped to understand the necessity of antifa’s confrontational tactics.
http://evergreenreview.com/read/anti-fa ... -violence/
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Dan74
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Location: Lyss, Switzerland

Re: Who is America ?

Post by Dan74 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:18 pm

Malcolm, I worry not only about people getting hurt but this tactic backfiring. I think it already has delivered some PR coups to the alt-right/fascists.

You quote seems to touch on this in the last sentence, but I don't see an argument. Maybe it follows - I will have a look later, it's bedtime here.

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