Neo nazi's march in DC

[Malcolm]

Thurman’s Shangrila is a total fantasy. Any cursory review of the political history of E. Asia. SE Asia, and Central Asia should be sufficient to discover this fact.

Can't the energies of the angry frustrated people be sublimated into something more wholesome than fascism?

Dan, you sure give people the benefit of the doubt. Me? I consider stupidity to be a terminal trait affecting most of humanity not leaving a whole lot of hope. Most people are motivated by petty impulses grounded in fear and selfishness, and these Alt-Right are pure fear and selfishness.

Talking to these bozos to get them to walk back their motivation, while a nice idea, won't get anywhere because the reason faculty is clearly compromised in them, either because they are congenitally stupid or because they've thought themselves too far down this path already. These idiots have built a whole ecosystem of meaning based on their impulses. You're not going to bring that down with an earnest conversation at a kissing booth.

We need leaders who offer a compelling alternative. Just talking a good game is not enough. Its got to be demonstrated in a way of life. Toynbee (a flawed person who had some compelling ideas) argued that societies flourish or die because of how they manage the challenge-and-response dynamic. He argued, the way this plays out - its not that all the members of society somehow spontaneously rise to the challenge before them, but rather, a creative minority emerges who comes up with a solution to a particular challenge. The rest of the masses then follow along through the process of mimesis. Their ability is limited to seeing a good idea and copying it.

What compelling alternative is there for these guys? Our creative minority, the tech crowd, the ascendant cohort with the money, the fame, and exciting function in society, actually thinks like them. On a whole, tech bros lean libertarian in that dickish Ayn Rand sort of way. Its not going out on a limb to say there is considerable overlap between the tech crowd and 4chan /pol/. Peter Thiel, aside from being gay, is only a few degrees removed from Richard Spencer in terms of his overall attitude. Tim Draper, the silicon valley bozo who wants to break California up into different states, demonstrates this impulse to segregate - that's what breaking up the state is all about - segregation. The difference his criteria is political and economic rather than racial and cultural.

I assume most readers here are Buddhist, so I'd recommend Bob Thurman's Inner Revolution. He points out the effect that Buddhism, particularly monastic Buddhism, had on India and Asia in general. Basically, it led to pacification. He argues its better for young men to bang their heads against the wall conquering their "self" than unleashing that energy on society. He argues the drawback for Buddhism is that Buddhism gets infused with machismo, but overall, society is better when young men are occupied with Dharma. That's sublimation of that energy in the best way so far. Thurman goes on to describe a society that is devoted to peace and life of the mind and proposes ways to do that. His proposal is a pipe dream, of course, but its thought provoking.

[Jeff H]

...a creative minority emerges who comes up with a solution to a particular challenge. The rest of the masses then follow along through the process of mimesis. Their ability is limited to seeing a good idea and copying it.

This works both ways. When the "creative minority's" solution is genocide, there is a point of critical mass where "the rest of the masses then follow along".

There is an outstanding film called Worse Than War that documents the motivations of the perpetrators of ethnic cleansing and genocide.

As a lunatic fringe the hate mongers are entitled to free speech. But America is dangerously close to that critical mass where it becomes shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater. The psychopaths are only the glowing embers; genocide is carried out by ordinary people catching fire. It could happen here.

70. Now when a building is ablaze
And flames leap out from house to house,
The wise course is to take and fling away
The straw and anything that spreads the fire.

71. And so, in fear that merit might be all consumed,
We should at once cast far away
Our mind’s attachments:
Tinder for the fiery flames of hate.

[Grigoris]

Thurman’s Shangrila is a total fantasy. Any cursory review of the political history of E. Asia. SE Asia, and Central Asia should be sufficient to discover this fact.

Utopias are always unrealistic, but if you don't aim high you generally fall short of the mark.

[Admin_PC]

Greg, do you really believe that most of those marchers would want to kill millions of people? Maybe I am just being naive, but to me, they are largely disgruntled and ignorant people, not psychopaths..

Unfriended an old acquaintance on facebook before Charlottesville that was seriously trying to coordinate a bunch of his like-minded friends into running over peaceful protesters with their trucks. Imagine that, wanting to kill a number of people, over exercising their First Amendment rights, just because they think different. I've dealt with numerous folks threatening murder over the slightest perceived insults (usually conservative, usually gun-loving). Sounds like you'd be pretty shocked at the lengths people are willing to go to.

"The goal is to ethnically cleanse White nations of non-Whites and establish an authoritarian government. Many people also believe that the Jews should be exterminated" - Andrew Anglin, editor & founder of The Daily Stormer source

[Tlalok]

Thurman’s Shangrila is a total fantasy. Any cursory review of the political history of E. Asia. SE Asia, and Central Asia should be sufficient to discover this fact.

Utopias are always unrealistic, but if you don't aim high you generally fall short of the mark.

In fact, that was the entire point of Moore's Utopia in the first place. They are best seen as mirrors to our current society, rather than actual blueprints to get there. When people start rigidly prescribing to their of Utopias, we can get some pretty ugly consequences.

Its very interesting to note that Marx was actually kind of light on detail about what a post-capitalist society would actually look like, at least in his mature political economy he was primarily concerned with dialectically explaining how Capital works, and Das Kapital contains very little in the way of moral and political damnation of Capitalism.

[Malcolm]

Thurman’s Shangrila is a total fantasy. Any cursory review of the political history of E. Asia. SE Asia, and Central Asia should be sufficient to discover this fact.

Utopias are always unrealistic, but if you don't aim high you generally fall short of the mark.

The problem with Thurman's Inner Revolution is he sells his quasi-Jeffersonian version of Democracy as if somehow Tibetan culture was representative of this.

[Jeff H]

There is an outstanding film called Worse Than War that documents the motivations of the perpetrators of ethnic cleansing and genocide.

I just re-watched this movie which I hadn't seen since it ran on PBS in 2010. It is even more powerful and relevant than I remembered, besides being quite well made.

Goldhagen looks at all the major incidents of genocide since the Turkish slaughter of the Armenians and reframes it as "eliminationism". He analyzes the phenomenon in terms of onset (by political leaders), execution (by ordinary people), and tacit acceptance (by the international community). He interviews people involved in all three aspects, as well as survivors and advocates seeking solutions.

His message is: Ordinary people are empowered with unbridled cruelty by leaders who choose killing as a useful solution to a particular problem. Genocide is always political and planned. It erupts because the international community allows it to. “We need to be on alert when we see any form of eliminationist politics, whether it initially includes killing or not.”

[Queequeg]

Thurman’s Shangrila is a total fantasy. Any cursory review of the political history of E. Asia. SE Asia, and Central Asia should be sufficient to discover this fact.

"Total fantasy" goes too far. Buddhism has a pretty good track record of having a pacifying effect on the societies where it takes root. Far from perfect, but that's just because people as a general rule are animals.

His proposal is a pipe dream, of course, but its thought provoking.

Its something worth thinking about.

As "Bob" would say, "we need slack." Bob would say, "we need free lunch."

[Queequeg]

This works both ways. When the "creative minority's" solution is genocide, there is a point of critical mass where "the rest of the masses then follow along".

Exactly my point about our "creative minority" being a bunch of unbearable (and dangerous) tech bros.

[Grigoris]

It always amazes me how little it takes to bring out the worst in people...

[Queequeg]

Thurman’s Shangrila is a total fantasy. Any cursory review of the political history of E. Asia. SE Asia, and Central Asia should be sufficient to discover this fact.

Utopias are always unrealistic, but if you don't aim high you generally fall short of the mark.

The problem with Thurman's Inner Revolution is he sells his quasi-Jeffersonian version of Democracy as if somehow Tibetan culture was representative of this.

That's not quite it. I was taking courses with him back when he was still in book tour mode. He actually wasn't particularly interested in promoting Buddhist monasticism, but rather bulking up the academy by making it free for anyone for as long as they want to be in school. He saw the university as an institution of peace where young testosterone could be directed to the arts and sciences. He summed it up with the slogan, "free lunch". The engine of his utopia actually the institution that takes young men and directs their energies peacefully. It could be a Christian monastery, it could be Buddhist monastery, it could be an American university.

[Malcolm]

Thurman’s Shangrila is a total fantasy. Any cursory review of the political history of E. Asia. SE Asia, and Central Asia should be sufficient to discover this fact.

"Total fantasy" goes too far. Buddhism has a pretty good track record of having a pacifying effect on the societies where it takes root.

We will agree to disagree. I think the historical record shows otherwise, from Sinhalese ethnic cleansing in the Mahāvamsa to the ethnic cleansing of Bonpos in Central Tibet, to the modern day ethnic cleansing of Bhutan and Burma, I think Buddhism actually has a very shitty record of bring peace to countries in general. Not to mention the endless religious wars in Tibet and Japan.

[Queequeg]

Thurman’s Shangrila is a total fantasy. Any cursory review of the political history of E. Asia. SE Asia, and Central Asia should be sufficient to discover this fact.

"Total fantasy" goes too far. Buddhism has a pretty good track record of having a pacifying effect on the societies where it takes root.

We will agree to disagree. I think the historical record shows otherwise, from Sinhalese ethnic cleansing in the Mahāvamsa to the ethnic cleansing of Bonpos in Central Tibet, to the modern day ethnic cleansing of Bhutan and Burma, I think Buddhism actually has a very shitty record of bring peace to countries in general. Not to mention the endless religious wars in Tibet and Japan.

In Japan, when Buddhism held a central role, they actually had a long period of peace - basically the Nara and Heian periods. The equilibrium broke down as the nation expanded West...

In any event, I wouldn't blame these terrible episodes on Buddhism, but on the people themselves. People have a way of twisting symbols to their own desires. That's a damning thing to suggest genocide found its genesis in Buddha Dharma.

[Malcolm]

That's a damning thing to suggest genocide found its genesis in Buddha Dharma.

Try giving the Mahāvamsa a read. It is one of the great documents of the founding of a religious country based upon the dehumanization and eradication of an indigenous population. The original sin of Theravada, if you will.

[Tlalok]

That's a damning thing to suggest genocide found its genesis in Buddha Dharma.

Try giving the Mahāvamsa a read. It is one of the great documents of the founding of a religious country based upon the dehumanization and eradication of an indigenous population. The original sin of Theravada, if you will.

Another good one being the book of Joshua. Its a pity that there's no shortage of them across the religious spectrum.

[Queequeg]

No doubt that horrible things have been done in the name of this religious authority or that, including Buddhism. This is indisputable. Its another to say that these horrors have their beginning in Dharma.

I'll add this to my reading list.

[Malcolm]

No doubt that horrible things have been done in the name of this religious authority or that, including Buddhism. This is indisputable. Its another to say that these horrors have their beginning in Dharma.

I'll add this to my reading list.

Dharma and Buddhism are two different things, as I have long argued.

[Yavana]

What strikes me is that there is a remarkable overlap between Alt Right, Gamergate and MOGTOW/incel/PUA BS.

It may be that all this hate and aggression is sublimated sexual frustration.

As John Lennon sang,

"But if you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao
Ain't gonna make it with anyone anyhow"

Want to get laid? Don't be an ideological dipshit for a start.

The simplest underlying explanation would be: the internet, and associated technologies.

Before that, media and news dissemination was concentrated in the hands of a relatively small group of companies that were subject to regulation of some kind. If you were a journalist and you lied, you risked your career. There was some semblance of caring about whether news was true or not. In only a couple of decades, news has ceased to have any real meaning. Fox News is news. Infowars is news. Analogues exist in every country. News is whatever people want to read or watch, and its greatest virtue is circulation, not veracity.

To the extent that news media ever really challenged or controlled government, it was through investigative journalism - the ability of reporters to invest time into uncovering facts not widely known. The precarious finances of most media organizations, and the general lack of interest of readers in this kind of work, means that this is harder and harder to do, and governments (and non-government actors) find it easier to escape scrutiny.

A few decades ago, if you were part of a minority interest group - let's say, the KKK or the communist party of the united states or the black panthers or whatever - there were meaningful costs and challenges to actually identifying people with similar ideas, meeting them and organizing activities together. Those costs are now effectively zero. Every unpopular misfit sitting in his bedroom in his parents' house fantasizing over guns can immediately find a thousand other people like him. This sense of community emboldens him and legitimizes his nonsensical views. He can happily disengage from the real, physical community around him and marinade in the virtual, imagined community he meets online. And of course sooner or later that imagined community starts to meet up and take action in the real world.

So there we have it. To set ourselves back on the road toward freedom and sanity, we need to destroy the internet.

It is worth remembering, though, that only a century ago many of the ideas we consider abhorrent now were not controversial at all; they were so widely accepted as to be invisible. Most societies considered women inferior. Most considered that certain races were superior to others. In most countries certain groups had better access to opportunity than others. Wealth was extremely polarized - probably more so than today, though the US is trying hard to make history in this regard. The idea that the broad sweep of history tends towards justice is a rather naïve misperception based on the perspective of a very limited moment in time.

Yes, many good points.

I wonder though if destroying the internet is the only solution (well it's no solution, since it's not going to happen).

Can't the energies of the angry frustrated people be sublimated into something more wholesome than fascism? As you say the internet offers unprecedented opportunities to connect, share and organise. Why can't we have something like an ActiWiki, where issues and work needed to improve communities, towns, cities and counties could be uploaded and folks with time on their hands could see that there is a need to clean up a local beach, or plant some trees nearby and put up a doodle for a meetup to do that; or someone across the globe has an issue we've already tackled in our community, so we can share our experience and the resources we developed for that? This is just one idea, of course many others and better ones are possible.

All I am saying is that imaginative and intelligent action is needed. On a grass-roots level.

And yeah, I did ask myself whether the energy of all those counter-protesters in DC yelling at that pitiful bunch of misfits could've be better spent. What is they actually put up a little dialogue booth and through good will and common sense convinced just one of those guys that the fascist cause is harmful? He'd go home changed. What ripple effect would that have had??

A wise man once said, "Nothing good ever comes from 4chan," 4chan, of course, being the image bbs that mobilized anon for the cause of Donald Trump's presidency. Free of charge.



Trolls gonna troll.

[Dan74]

Thank you for the detailed answer, QQ. (also thank you, Greg and PC, for replying and offering your perspectives).

As an outsider, it seems to me that the growing rift in society and lack of interest in dialogue and genuine engagement feed this phenomenon. Of course, a 50-year-old man hardened in hate, isn't going to chat amicably and want to discuss his beliefs. It's the younger generation that will pay attention.

I do agree about inspirational inclusive leadership.


Fear and selfishness are in abundance everywhere. Why do they manifest differently in different places? Here in Swizterland, for instance, consensus building is a huge thing on all levels. The federal government is a perpetual coalition including diametrically opposed parties and this sets an example of respecting other people's views, even when strongly disagreeing and doing one's best to work with them to arrive at the best solution possible.

PS PC, I read about Anglin. There is tons of false vile neo-Nazi material on his site, but he's always been careful to repudiate violence. Regardless, the anger seems to be boiling over. I think it is way past the time, when people undertake a massive grass-roots action to address this shocking rift and bring the society together again. A huge project of some kind, maybe... Something to unite over. Don't you think so?

Can't the energies of the angry frustrated people be sublimated into something more wholesome than fascism?

Dan, you sure give people the benefit of the doubt. Me? I consider stupidity to be a terminal trait affecting most of humanity not leaving a whole lot of hope. Most people are motivated by petty impulses grounded in fear and selfishness, and these Alt-Right are pure fear and selfishness.

Talking to these bozos to get them to walk back their motivation, while a nice idea, won't get anywhere because the reason faculty is clearly compromised in them, either because they are congenitally stupid or because they've thought themselves too far down this path already. These idiots have built a whole ecosystem of meaning based on their impulses. You're not going to bring that down with an earnest conversation at a kissing booth.

We need leaders who offer a compelling alternative. Just talking a good game is not enough. Its got to be demonstrated in a way of life. Toynbee (a flawed person who had some compelling ideas) argued that societies flourish or die because of how they manage the challenge-and-response dynamic. He argued, the way this plays out - its not that all the members of society somehow spontaneously rise to the challenge before them, but rather, a creative minority emerges who comes up with a solution to a particular challenge. The rest of the masses then follow along through the process of mimesis. Their ability is limited to seeing a good idea and copying it.

What compelling alternative is there for these guys? Our creative minority, the tech crowd, the ascendant cohort with the money, the fame, and exciting function in society, actually thinks like them. On a whole, tech bros lean libertarian in that dickish Ayn Rand sort of way. Its not going out on a limb to say there is considerable overlap between the tech crowd and 4chan /pol/. Peter Thiel, aside from being gay, is only a few degrees removed from Richard Spencer in terms of his overall attitude. Tim Draper, the silicon valley bozo who wants to break California up into different states, demonstrates this impulse to segregate - that's what breaking up the state is all about - segregation. The difference his criteria is political and economic rather than racial and cultural.

I assume most readers here are Buddhist, so I'd recommend Bob Thurman's Inner Revolution. He points out the effect that Buddhism, particularly monastic Buddhism, had on India and Asia in general. Basically, it led to pacification. He argues its better for young men to bang their heads against the wall conquering their "self" than unleashing that energy on society. He argues the drawback for Buddhism is that Buddhism gets infused with machismo, but overall, society is better when young men are occupied with Dharma. That's sublimation of that energy in the best way so far. Thurman goes on to describe a society that is devoted to peace and life of the mind and proposes ways to do that. His proposal is a pipe dream, of course, but its thought provoking.

[Queequeg]

Fear and selfishness are in abundance everywhere. Why do they manifest differently in different places? Here in Swizterland, for instance, consensus building is a huge thing on all levels. The federal government is a perpetual coalition including diametrically opposed parties and this sets an example of respecting other people's views, even when strongly disagreeing and doing one's best to work with them to arrive at the best solution possible.

We have shitty leaders. (Who we elect. Ergo, we're shitty people. Nicer people might say we're naive. Others might say, Trump is precisely the brick through a plate glass window that desperate people wanted; they didn't want this in particular.)