Can a Stream Enterer believe in silly things?

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Sherab
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Can a Stream Enterer believe in silly things?

Post by Sherab » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:58 pm

I was taught that according to the Buddha, the most difficult obstacle to overcome is clinging to a view. This has made a deep impression on me as it appears to be something unique to Buddhism. So when Malcolm made this comment:
.... there are a lot of renowned Buddhist savants in history who have put forward some pretty bad arguments -- like Sapan's argument that ants lack eyes. Just embarrassing.
viewtopic.php?f=53&t=29203&start=40#p461254 it caught my eye.

Then I saw this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWy1FBArO7c
... and I wondered, can a stream enterer, one who is on the path of seeing, or someone beyond the path of seeing but still on the path, still believe in silly ideas. Going by Malcolm's comment, it would seem the answer is yes. Surprising? Or not?

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Wayfarer
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Re: Can a Stream Enterer believe in silly things?

Post by Wayfarer » Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:24 am

I would think the answer to the question is 'yes', but then I'd add - isn't that part of the reason for 'not holding to views?' Remember the aggi-vachagotta-sutta about the shortcomings of clinging to 'thickets and writhings of views'.

I think the correct attitude is, not to say that you don't believe anything (which is impossible) but to 'hold views lightly'. It is somewhat similar to the scientific attitude: you have an hypothetical idea, you will hold onto it while it appears to give results, but ought not to be scared to let them go if they don't work out. That is the properly sceptical view.

It's a different matter when it comes to scholarly argument, where sometimes it is necessary to 'maintain a thesis'. And of scholars (or philosophers, anyway) it has been said that 'there is no opinion so strange but that some philosopher has not defended it.' But from the viewpoint of being a practitioner, or path-enterer, then such notions are generally not that significant.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki Roshi

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Re: Can a Stream Enterer believe in silly things?

Post by Virgo » Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:54 am

Sherab wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:58 pm
I was taught that according to the Buddha, the most difficult obstacle to overcome is clinging to a view. This has made a deep impression on me as it appears to be something unique to Buddhism. So when Malcolm made this comment:
.... there are a lot of renowned Buddhist savants in history who have put forward some pretty bad arguments -- like Sapan's argument that ants lack eyes. Just embarrassing.
viewtopic.php?f=53&t=29203&start=40#p461254 it caught my eye.

Then I saw this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWy1FBArO7c
... and I wondered, can a stream enterer, one who is on the path of seeing, or someone beyond the path of seeing but still on the path, still believe in silly ideas. Going by Malcolm's comment, it would seem the answer is yes. Surprising? Or not?
Even at such a stage not all obscurations to Omniscience are yet removed.

Kevin...
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


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passel
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Re: Can a Stream Enterer believe in silly things?

Post by passel » Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:15 am

In Brilliant Moon, Dilgo Khyentse R. says his teacher Jamyang Chökyi Lodrö was terrified of mice, terrified of a protector, and that he cut his pet monkey’s tail off because someone said it would make the monkey behave.

I don’t know if he was a stream entrant, but, you know, he was Khyentse R’s teacher.
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious

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Sherab
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Re: Can a Stream Enterer believe in silly things?

Post by Sherab » Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:34 am

If the thing or idea can be verified but was not, then that would be a strange behaviour. Someone like Sapan would probably had certainly non-mundane abilities that might enable him to verify whether ants have eyes or not, or at least I would have thought so.

If the thing or idea cannot be verified through abilities acquired when one is on or beyond the path of seeing, then it would depend on whether the thing or idea can be logically and reasonably argued. If it cannot, believing in the thing or idea would seem to be irrational.

If the thing or idea is akin to a phobia of sorts or something imprinted in the brain's neural network, that would be understandable, and it would take a lot of conscious effort to undo the imprint.

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Re: Can a Stream Enterer believe in silly things?

Post by Virgo » Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:48 am

Sherab wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:34 am
If the thing or idea can be verified but was not, then that would be a strange behaviour. Someone like Sapan would probably had certainly non-mundane abilities that might enable him to verify whether ants have eyes or not, or at least I would have thought so.
People with very strongly clarity generally experience it based on secondary causes, not upon their will. For example, Namkhai Norbu has had many important dreams connected with the teachings, and connected with all sorts of things, but he does not posses the ability to dream about and receive information on any topic he wishes. Generally clarity increases when a subject is very important for an individual, or one has a strong karmic connection, and so on. Ants eyes are not particularly important, in fact.

A Buddha who has manifested the Three Bodies can have unimpeded clarity because he does not have a human body, and has removed all knowledge obscurations.
Sherab wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:34 am
If the thing or idea cannot be verified through abilities acquired when one is on or beyond the path of seeing, then it would depend on whether the thing or idea can be logically and reasonably argued. If it cannot, believing in the thing or idea would seem to be irrational.
Even reasonable people do not have the ability to understand everything.
Sherab wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:34 am
If the thing or idea is akin to a phobia of sorts or something imprinted in the brain's neural network, that would be understandable, and it would take a lot of conscious effort to undo the imprint.
Are you saying Sapan should have gone for therapy?

Kevin...
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


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passel
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Re: Can a Stream Enterer believe in silly things?

Post by passel » Wed Aug 22, 2018 5:32 am

Virgo wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:48 am
Ants eyes are not particularly important, in fact.
Tell that to the ants.
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious

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Re: Can a Stream Enterer believe in silly things?

Post by Virgo » Wed Aug 22, 2018 5:35 am

passel wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 5:32 am
Virgo wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:48 am
Ants eyes are not particularly important, in fact.
Tell that to the ants.
Well they are extremely important to ants, and ants deserve love and respect too, and so do their eyeballs, but as far as what is important in our condition, details about their eyes or lack of eyes or whatever, has next to zero import.

Kevin...
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


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passel
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Re: Can a Stream Enterer believe in silly things?

Post by passel » Wed Aug 22, 2018 5:38 am

Ants’ eyes import in my condition is nonzero. I can’t leave ants’ eyes out of my practice which is identical with my condition.
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious

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Re: Can a Stream Enterer believe in silly things?

Post by Virgo » Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:13 am

passel wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 5:38 am
Ants’ eyes import in my condition is nonzero. I can’t leave ants’ eyes out of my practice which is identical with my condition.
I said details about ants' eyes, knowledge about their eyes. It doesn't have much import in our condition.

Kevin...
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


http://caretoclick.com/clean-the-enviro ... -phone-use

passel
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Re: Can a Stream Enterer believe in silly things?

Post by passel » Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:14 am

Hey speak for your own condition
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious

Sādhaka
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Re: Can a Stream Enterer believe in silly things?

Post by Sādhaka » Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:25 am

Secular western neoconservative & ‘liberal’ tirthikas & carvakas/lokayatas believe in things much more silly than ants not having eyes.

Their false pride (“empirical observation”, usually driven by ignorance and/or agendas and/or lobbying/corporations) prevents them from recognizing the fact.
“...we should try to acquire clairvoyance. Without it, we are like a baby bird whose wings are undeveloped and has not yet grown feathers and remains stuck in its nest, unable to fly. Without clairvoyance, we cannot work for other sentient beings.” — Khunu Lama
“Just as a bird can not fly without both wings,
The welfare of others cannot be accomplished without the higher faculties of perception,
So diligently strive for your own wellbeing, whilst mentally considering the welfare of others.” — Longchenpa

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Sherab
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Re: Can a Stream Enterer believe in silly things?

Post by Sherab » Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:25 pm

Virgo wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:48 am
Sherab wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:34 am
If the thing or idea can be verified but was not, then that would be a strange behaviour. Someone like Sapan would probably had certainly non-mundane abilities that might enable him to verify whether ants have eyes or not, or at least I would have thought so.
People with very strongly clarity generally experience it based on secondary causes, not upon their will. For example, Namkhai Norbu has had many important dreams connected with the teachings, and connected with all sorts of things, but he does not posses the ability to dream about and receive information on any topic he wishes. Generally clarity increases when a subject is very important for an individual, or one has a strong karmic connection, and so on. Ants eyes are not particularly important, in fact.

A Buddha who has manifested the Three Bodies can have unimpeded clarity because he does not have a human body, and has removed all knowledge obscurations.
I am not sure about that. I think there can be control of supramundane ability but it is the range of that ability that is limited unless one is a Buddha.
Virgo wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:48 am
Sherab wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:34 am
If the thing or idea cannot be verified through abilities acquired when one is on or beyond the path of seeing, then it would depend on whether the thing or idea can be logically and reasonably argued. If it cannot, believing in the thing or idea would seem to be irrational.
Even reasonable people do not have the ability to understand everything.
When one does not understand something, the reasonable response should be "I don't know".
Virgo wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:48 am
Sherab wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:34 am
If the thing or idea is akin to a phobia of sorts or something imprinted in the brain's neural network, that would be understandable, and it would take a lot of conscious effort to undo the imprint.
Are you saying Sapan should have gone for therapy?
Did I imply Sapan's view that ants haves eyes is due to some sort of phobia?

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Re: Can a Stream Enterer believe in silly things?

Post by Virgo » Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:31 pm

Sherab wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:25 pm

I am not sure about that. I think there can be control of supramundane ability but it is the range of that ability that is limited unless one is a Buddha.
So you believe it manifests independent of secondary causes?

Kevin...
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


http://caretoclick.com/clean-the-enviro ... -phone-use

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Sherab
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Re: Can a Stream Enterer believe in silly things?

Post by Sherab » Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:48 pm

Virgo wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:31 pm
Sherab wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:25 pm

I am not sure about that. I think there can be control of supramundane ability but it is the range of that ability that is limited unless one is a Buddha.
So you believe it manifests independent of secondary causes?

Kevin...
You appeared to think that as a result of secondary causes, there is no control of an ability. I however think that as a result of secondary causes, the range of the ability is affected, not that there is no control of the ability or the choice to use the ability.

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Re: Can a Stream Enterer believe in silly things?

Post by Virgo » Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:55 pm

Sherab wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:48 pm
You appeared to think that as a result of secondary causes, there is no control of an ability. I however think that as a result of secondary causes, the range of the ability is affected, not that there is no control of the ability or the choice to use the ability.
So certain masters can know the minds of anyone they wish to at any time? Their clarity is not restricted by importance (or lack there of) of the information they are trying to discern, karmic connection, and other factors?

Masters with the siddhi of long life may chose when it is they will die, may live on eternally, etc. If that is what you would like to believe... have at it, hoss.

Kevin...
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


http://caretoclick.com/clean-the-enviro ... -phone-use

jmlee369
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Re: Can a Stream Enterer believe in silly things?

Post by jmlee369 » Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:17 am

Sherab wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:58 pm
I was taught that according to the Buddha, the most difficult obstacle to overcome is clinging to a view. This has made a deep impression on me as it appears to be something unique to Buddhism. So when Malcolm made this comment:
.... there are a lot of renowned Buddhist savants in history who have put forward some pretty bad arguments -- like Sapan's argument that ants lack eyes. Just embarrassing.
viewtopic.php?f=53&t=29203&start=40#p461254 it caught my eye.

Then I saw this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWy1FBArO7c
... and I wondered, can a stream enterer, one who is on the path of seeing, or someone beyond the path of seeing but still on the path, still believe in silly ideas. Going by Malcolm's comment, it would seem the answer is yes. Surprising? Or not?
Supposedly, Sumana, one of Anathapindika's daughters was a once-returner who starved herself to death because she couldn't find a husband.
source

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