Psychoanalysis

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Pero
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Re: Psychoanalysis

Post by Pero » Sat Oct 27, 2018 7:46 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 7:29 pm
Monlam Tharchin wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 7:18 pm
Thanks!
In Buddhadharma, there is nowhere any discussion of an unconscious mind which performs functions below the level of awareness. This is a modern idea from modern psychology. It comes originally from the 189th century German philosopher Schiller, was taken up by the poet Coleridge, and placed into its modern usage by Freud.

Brentano rejected the idea, as well as Satre, Fromm, Searle, etc.
Dreams? Body language? Realizing something happened after it happened (if for example at the time of the event one is preoccupied with something else)?

Also, what is memory when it isn't conscious?
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

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Grigoris
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Re: Psychoanalysis

Post by Grigoris » Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:17 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 7:08 pm
You are not being precise. I am. Be precise.
I have been clear and precise, you are reading things into my statements to support your counter-position.
What do you mean by lack of awareness? Generally, to lack awareness means to be unconscious, as in deep sleep, or under anesthesia. If you are awake, you are both conscious and aware.
Actions based on habit. When I am sparring in Muay Thai (for example) I constantly do things that are programmed, without me being conscious of doing them, nor having to be motivated to do them. They come out automatically. If there is awareness there it is subtle and REALLY fast. Faster than the finger click that Buddhist models of consciousness say exists between specific moments of consciousness.
People do not accumulate action while they are unconscious.
Who said they did?
What do you mean by samskara? Are you referring to the skandha or the link in dependent origination.
Skhanda.
Many in fact, and they were all quite conscious at the time, aware of what they were doing within the constraints of their delusions.
You should come and meet some of my patients.
Everyone knows that they are angry when they are angered, desirous when they desire, and ignorant when they don't know something.
No they don't. People act without awareness due to habit. You do it. I do it. We all do it.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Grigoris
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Re: Psychoanalysis

Post by Grigoris » Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:19 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 7:11 pm
These are not unconscious memories. If there is a memory, it is in consciousness.
You are talking about recalling/remembering. I personally do not walk around with a conscious recollection of every single one of my memories during every single moment of the day. It would be impossible to do so. Ergo...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Psychoanalysis

Post by Malcolm » Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:33 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:19 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 7:11 pm
These are not unconscious memories. If there is a memory, it is in consciousness.
You are talking about recalling/remembering. I personally do not walk around with a conscious recollection of every single one of my memories during every single moment of the day. It would be impossible to do so. Ergo...
You are imagining that memories are entities that have some existence somewhere in your mind of which you are unaware, like data records.

It is not how memory works.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Psychoanalysis

Post by Malcolm » Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:39 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:17 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 7:08 pm
You are not being precise. I am. Be precise.
I have been clear and precise, you are reading things into my statements to support your counter-position.
What do you mean by lack of awareness? Generally, to lack awareness means to be unconscious, as in deep sleep, or under anesthesia. If you are awake, you are both conscious and aware.
Actions based on habit. When I am sparring in Muay Thai (for example) I constantly do things that are programmed, without me being conscious of doing them, nor having to be motivated to do them. They come out automatically. If there is awareness there it is subtle and REALLY fast. Faster than the finger click that Buddhist models of consciousness say exists between specific moments of consciousness.
You are confusing "non-conceptual" with "unconscious."

What do you mean by samskara? Are you referring to the skandha or the link in dependent origination.
Skhanda.
All samkaras are activities related with being conscious. They are not unconscious events.
Everyone knows that they are angry when they are angered, desirous when they desire, and ignorant when they don't know something.
No they don't. People act without awareness due to habit. You do it. I do it. We all do it.
Not in reality. People are always aware of something. They may be distracted, they may not be focusing on what they are "doing," but it is never the case that when a person is awake they are unaware.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Crazywisdom
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Re: Psychoanalysis

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:00 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:33 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:19 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 7:11 pm
These are not unconscious memories. If there is a memory, it is in consciousness.
You are talking about recalling/remembering. I personally do not walk around with a conscious recollection of every single one of my memories during every single moment of the day. It would be impossible to do so. Ergo...
You are imagining that memories are entities that have some existence somewhere in your mind of which you are unaware, like data records.

It is not how memory works.
How does memory work?
I got my Chili Chilaya.

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Grigoris
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Re: Psychoanalysis

Post by Grigoris » Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:18 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:33 pm
You are imagining that memories are entities that have some existence somewhere in your mind of which you are unaware, like data records.

It is not how memory works.
A dependently arisen mental phenomenon. Yes. If there were no memories, then mentally/emotionally we would always be starting from scratch. We quite clearly don't.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Grigoris
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Re: Psychoanalysis

Post by Grigoris » Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:26 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:39 pm
You are confusing "non-conceptual" with "unconscious."
Is blinking a non-conceptual or an unconscious activity? What about pulling away one's hand when they touch a overly hot object?
All samkaras are activities related with being conscious. They are not unconscious events.
Yes, they are formed by volitional actions, as are habits, but over time the need for volition disappears and yet the actions continue to manifest. An example would be exaggerated startle responses to non-threatening phenomena. These are rarely conscious or motivated. Another example is chronic anxiety.
Everyone knows that they are angry when they are angered, desirous when they desire, and ignorant when they don't know something.
Not in reality. People are always aware of something. They may be distracted, they may not be focusing on what they are "doing," but it is never the case that when a person is awake they are unaware.[/quote]They are conscious, but they may not be conscious of, I think this is where we are disagreeing.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Psychoanalysis

Post by Malcolm » Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:37 pm

Is blinking a non-conceptual or an unconscious activity? What about pulling away one's hand when they touch a overly hot object?
Nonconceptual.


All samkaras are activities related with being conscious. They are not unconscious events.
Yes, they are formed by volitional actions, as are habits, but over time the need for volition disappears and yet the actions continue to manifest. An example would be exaggerated startle responses to non-threatening phenomena. These are rarely conscious or motivated. Another example is chronic anxiety.
I don't think you understand. The caittas are mental factors that assist or are associated with consciousness perform functions for consciousness in various activities. They are not "habits." Volition is one of those mental factors, one of the ten neutral mental factors. I don't you are using samskaras in the proper sense here. Samskaras as the link after ignorance refers to the karmas performed in the past life, generally speaking.

They are conscious, but they may not be conscious of, I think this is where we are disagreeing.
They are conscious of something, even if it is not what they ought to be conscious of. This called distraction.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Psychoanalysis

Post by Wayfarer » Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:39 pm

The question could be asked, why Gautama suddenly recalled all of his past lives during the third watch (I think it was) of the night of his Enlightenment. It is said that detailed knowledge of all of these lives was suddenly recalled at this time. So, why didn’t he already know it, and where had these memories been residing before they had been recalled?
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki Roshi

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Malcolm
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Re: Psychoanalysis

Post by Malcolm » Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:47 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:18 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:33 pm
You are imagining that memories are entities that have some existence somewhere in your mind of which you are unaware, like data records.

It is not how memory works.
A dependently arisen mental phenomenon. Yes. If there were no memories, then mentally/emotionally we would always be starting from scratch. We quite clearly don't.
No, that is not how memory works, either in neuroscience or Buddhism.

In neuroscience, the subject of memory is a big topic. There are many types of memories.

In Buddhadharma, memory is also a mental factor, dran pa. It always accompanies consciousness.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Psychoanalysis

Post by Wayfarer » Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:51 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 5:31 pm
Wayfarer wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:38 pm
the reality of unconscious and subconscious is indubitable, in my view.
These things do not exist, and you cannot explain their mechanism.
bringing to light unconscious memories can be very challenging
There are no such thing as unconsciousness memories. If you are not conscious of a mental event, it is not a memory. That is just not how the brain works, if you like neuroscience explanations, and it definitely is not how Buddhadharma explains memory.
William Waldron has a book, The Buddhist Unconscious: The Alaya-vijñana in the context of Indian Buddhist Thought:
This is the story of fifth century CE India, when the Yogacara tested the awareness of unawareness, and became aware of human unawareness to an extraordinary degree. They not only explicitly differentiated this dimension of mental processes from conscious cognitive processes, but also offered reasoned arguments on behalf of this dimension of mind. This is the concept of the 'Buddhist unconscious', which arose just as philosophical discourse in other circles was fiercely debating the limits of conscious awareness, and these ideas in turn had developed as a systematisation of teachings from the Buddha himself.
There's a PDF summary of Waldron's thesis here.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki Roshi

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Malcolm
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Re: Psychoanalysis

Post by Malcolm » Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:52 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:39 pm
The question could be asked, why Gautama suddenly recalled all of his past lives during the third watch (I think it was) of the night of his Enlightenment. It is said that detailed knowledge of all of these lives was suddenly recalled at this time. So, why didn’t he already know it, and where had these memories been residing before they had been recalled?
He recalled his past lives sequentially, not all at once, in a reverse sequence. Memories are not stored anywhere. There does not need to be a storage medium, in fact, one cannot exist. The past does not exist, the future has yet to come to be, the present is already gone. The emptiness of the mind itself is sufficient cause for memory recollection.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Psychoanalysis

Post by Malcolm » Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:55 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:51 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 5:31 pm
Wayfarer wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:38 pm
the reality of unconscious and subconscious is indubitable, in my view.
These things do not exist, and you cannot explain their mechanism.
bringing to light unconscious memories can be very challenging
There are no such thing as unconsciousness memories. If you are not conscious of a mental event, it is not a memory. That is just not how the brain works, if you like neuroscience explanations, and it definitely is not how Buddhadharma explains memory.
William Waldron has a book, The Buddhist Unconscious: The Alaya-vijñana in the context of Indian Buddhist Thought:
This is the story of fifth century CE India, when the Yogacara tested the awareness of unawareness, and became aware of human unawareness to an extraordinary degree. They not only explicitly differentiated this dimension of mental processes from conscious cognitive processes, but also offered reasoned arguments on behalf of this dimension of mind. This is the concept of the 'Buddhist unconscious', which arose just as philosophical discourse in other circles was fiercely debating the limits of conscious awareness, and these ideas in turn had developed as a systematisation of teachings from the Buddha himself.
The ālayavijñāna is not actually a separate consciousness. It is a name for consciousness in its role as a repository of traces, vasanas (a theory of the Yogacārins the Madhyamaka find very faulty).

In the Yogacāra system, the ālayavijñāna does not perform any cognitive function at all, not even as an unconscious. In the Yogacāra presentation, it is basically inert, which is why Madhyamakas tend to reject their presentation.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Psychoanalysis

Post by Wayfarer » Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:04 pm

Bill Waldron wrote: Although there was no explicit concept of unconscious mind in early Buddhism (roughly 5th-2nd centuries BCE), there was an awareness of processes that later Buddhists, like many modern scholars, would consider descriptively unconscious. These included not only the various cognitive processes that subserve all ordinary perception, but also our ongoing emotional dispositions and sense of self-identity.
Also, I would have thought that the fact that yogis are able to suspend their respiration and other metabolic processes, in a way which the untrained can definitely not do, arises from their awareness of and mastery over autonomic and semi-autonomic functions, which for most people are unconscious.
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Malcolm
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Re: Psychoanalysis

Post by Malcolm » Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:09 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:04 pm
Bill Waldron wrote: Although there was no explicit concept of unconscious mind in early Buddhism (roughly 5th-2nd centuries BCE), there was an awareness of processes that later Buddhists, like many modern scholars, would consider descriptively unconscious. These included not only the various cognitive processes that subserve all ordinary perception, but also our ongoing emotional dispositions and sense of self-identity.
Also, I would have thought that the fact that yogis are able to suspend their respiration and other metabolic processes, in a way which the untrained can definitely not do, arises from their awareness of and mastery over autonomic and semi-autonomic functions, which for most people are unconscious.
I think BIll Waldron is reading too much into his sources.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Psychoanalysis

Post by Grigoris » Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:56 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:37 pm
Nonconceptual.
So you are saying that eye-blinking is volitional???
I don't think you understand. The caittas are mental factors that assist or are associated with consciousness perform functions for consciousness in various activities. They are not "habits." Volition is one of those mental factors, one of the ten neutral mental factors. I don't you are using samskaras in the proper sense here. Samskaras as the link after ignorance refers to the karmas performed in the past life, generally speaking.
When I am talking about smaskara I am referring to karmic formations, to (put it simply) habits.
They are conscious, but they may not be conscious of, I think this is where we are disagreeing.
They are conscious of something, even if it is not what they ought to be conscious of. This called distraction.
When I use the term conscious above, I am talking about consciousness (vijnana). When I am talking about "conscious of" I am talking about "awareness of", or "attention to" (manasikara).

I do not think that neuroscience will be able to adequately explain memory, mainly because neuroscience deals with brain and not mind. I believe that the explanation found in Buddhism based on the idea of the alaya-vijnana, or of samskara (as habits based on past volitional actions) is more fitting.
In Buddhadharma, memory is also a mental factor, dran pa. It always accompanies consciousness.
Of course memory accompanies consciousness, that goes without saying. But is dren pa referring to the process of memory, of remembering, or recalling? What, according to Buddhism, happens to memories when one is not consciously recalling them if (as you have stated), if there is no memory without conscious recollection of it?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Psychoanalysis

Post by Malcolm » Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:11 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:56 pm


When I am talking about smaskara I am referring to karmic formations, to (put it simply) habits.
Then you are not talking about the samskara skangha, you are talking about second link in the twelve links of dependent origination.

In Tibetan Buddhism, we don't use this lingo. This lingo comes from Goenka's Vipassna.

What are you are talking about is bag chags or vāsanā. This is a term derived from Yogacāra theory. They are impressions upon consciousness which are activated through a specific cause and condition which causes them to generate a karmic appearance.

Vasubandhu defines memories as concepts connected with the seven mental elements: i.e. eye through mental consciousness as well as the manodhātu.

Asanga defines memory as the absence of forgetting an object with which the mind is familiar. He further defines affliction as the basis of a distracted memory, as does Vasubandhu in his treatise on the five aggregates.

Basically, they both define the mechanism of memory as being free from mental distractions. The more undistracted one is, that is free from affliction one is, the better one's memory will become. But there is no definition of memory having some matrix, or memories existing in some latent form. Memories are simply knowing some familiar entity that one experienced in the past. This also explains why we do not remember and will never remember most of what we experience on a day to day basis. Most of what we experience is either too trivial to recall or it is an object with which we have no repeated familiarity.
I do not think that neuroscience will be able to adequately explain memory, mainly because neuroscience deals with brain and not mind. I believe that the explanation found in Buddhism based on the idea of the alaya-vijnana, or of samskara (as habits based on past volitional actions) is more fitting.
That explanation which you seek does not exist in Buddhist texts. You are fabricating it. If you examine Abhidharma, Madhyamaka, Yogācara, etc., you will never find the definition of memory presented in the terms you describe. One does not even see memory described in terms of bag chags.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Motova
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Re: Psychoanalysis

Post by Motova » Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:17 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:00 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:33 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:19 pm
You are talking about recalling/remembering. I personally do not walk around with a conscious recollection of every single one of my memories during every single moment of the day. It would be impossible to do so. Ergo...
You are imagining that memories are entities that have some existence somewhere in your mind of which you are unaware, like data records.

It is not how memory works.
How does memory work?
https://www.amazon.com/Mirror-Memory-Re ... +of+memory

I bought this on google books, I just haven't read it yet....
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.

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Re: Psychoanalysis

Post by Grigoris » Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:07 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:11 pm
Then you are not talking about the samskara skangha, you are talking about second link in the twelve links of dependent origination.
You may be right, either that or the Alaya Vijnana.
That explanation which you seek does not exist in Buddhist texts. You are fabricating it. If you examine Abhidharma, Madhyamaka, Yogācara, etc., you will never find the definition of memory presented in the terms you describe. One does not even see memory described in terms of bag chags.
Then I would have to say that "Buddhism" needs to reassess it's theories on memory. I guess the Yogacarin's tried to do it with the Alya Vijnana, but met with resistance from the dominant theoretical thread of Madhyamaka.

Regardless, quite clearly the current position does not adequately explain memory and how it functions. Not by a long shot. It does not answer any of the questions/hypothetical points I posed to you. Keep in mind that these points are based on practical observations, so it is going to take a little more than a few Sanskrit terms being thrown around to convince me of something different. :smile:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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