DJKR letter to Aung San Suu Kyi

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Grigoris
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Re: DJKR letter to Aung San Suu Kyi

Post by Grigoris »

I am going to remind people to please stay on topic (the content of the letter) and refrain from personal attacks. Any further incidents will lead to more severe moderation actions.

Thank you.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Orgyen
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Re: DJKR letter to Aung San Suu Kyi

Post by Orgyen »

Rereading his letter , his message is clear that overall too many people, west (&of course east also) , treated Assk with discrimination and dishonourable imo . But , his concerns mainly because the Medals was given to her by the West . If one only want to focus on his so called generalisation sweeping the west in overall ,
I think that is not the main point . Normally if I were to refer something about western people , does not mean , each and every single person involves . But , it would mean too many people in some larger scale .
Can one ask if contents in the letter of DJKR reviewed something true that one find unhappy to hear or do you think all his statement false ?
Or many people disregard what important part he said and focus on so called his generalisation only ? Forgive me if I don't get it , Why is it the whole world seems to Focus on Assk helpless situation and fingers pointing at her that appear unfair to her and Do Nothing to help the Rohingya themselves , whether by individually effort and through their own country way ?
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Nemo
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Re: DJKR letter to Aung San Suu Kyi

Post by Nemo »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:05 am
Nemo wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:22 am
Grigoris wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:36 pm While true, your logic is also a blatant case of "whaboutism".
I hate to quote the Bible but, "Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye." Maybe the country that has killed 10 times as many Muslims and is still at war should fix itself before policing others?
Irrelevant to the present discussion.
So pointing out the hypocrisy of the comments here about what the letter calls a "blatant double standard" is irrelevant? I am discussing the content of DJKRs letter. What are you talking about? And how is Myanmar not simply following the US example. US went to war on the Muslim world in 2001 and is still bombing daily. Rohingya expulsion began over a decade after. If you are murdering people every day maybe censuring others is a bit much. Take back Obama's Peace Prize or just live with being a hypocrite.
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Re: DJKR letter to Aung San Suu Kyi

Post by Malcolm »

Nemo wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:12 pm
So pointing out the hypocrisy of the comments here about what the letter calls a "blatant double standard" is irrelevant? I am discussing the content of DJKRs letter. What are you talking about? And how is Myanmar not simply following the US example. US went to war on the Muslim world in 2001 and is still bombing daily. Rohingya expulsion began over a decade after. If you are murdering people every day maybe censuring others is a bit much. Take back Obama's Peace Prize or just live with being a hypocrite.
You are making a lot of personal assumptions here, which are unwarranted. 1) When did I ever defend Obama's Nobel Peace Prize? 2) When did I ever advocate killing Muslims as a sound and acceptable US Policy? I voted against Obama because of his policies in in 2012 [but not for Romney]. Finally, the Nobel Peace Prize is not mine to bestow or retract. You are just being deliberately antagonistic.

Ok, having dispensed with your ad hominem remarks, the regime in Myanmar is not basing themselves on any US policy, perceived or otherwise. They are simply engaged in ethnic cleansing of a minority, a minority which enthusiastically backed Aung San Su Khyi's government, a minority they have sought to expunge for decades. The Myanmar Gvt. and its predecessors have been systematically depriving the Rohingya rights as a community since 1962.

Finally, the idea that as an American, I ought to be quiet because my Gvt. is engaged in actions of which I do not approve is just absurd. You are Canadian, and your Gvt., as well as the British Gvt. was right in there in with American troops, "murdering Muslims" after 9/11 as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_in ... fghanistan. Yes, it is true that Canada sensibly avoided both Bush wars in Iraq, but your country did not avoid the Afghanistan war.

With respect to Dzongsar Khyentse's letter, as I said before, he is entitled to his own opinions but he is not entitled to his own facts, just as you are not entitled to your own facts.

These are the facts:
Fact: The Rohingya have been getting a raw deal for more than half a century, since the military coup that happened in 1962.
Fact: The Rohingya have been a persecuted, stateless people under Myanmar Law since 1962.
Fact: Aung San Su Khyi's government was won in part because of popular support of the Rohingya population.
Fact: Aung San Su Khyi has turned a blind eye to the suffering of a significant ethnic group for whom she is responsible as the de facto head of the state.
Fact: Dzongsar Khyentse's piece contains factual errors, whether or not one agrees with his opinions about the lowliness of Western Civilization or the glory of Asian Civilization.
Fact: Last time I checked, you were a product of Western Civilization. Must be interesting to be a self-hating westerner.

Just remember, the greatest Buddhist king in history, Aśoka, after his conversion to Buddhism murdered an entire community of 18,000 Jains for a slight toward the Buddha by one of them, and subsequently offered to pay a bounty of one dinara for the head of any Jain brought to him. By mistake Aśoka's brother, Vitaśoka, a Buddhist monk, was mistaken for a Jain, killed, and his head was turned in for the bounty. Only after this, only after misfortune was brought upon his own family because of his murderous policy, did Aśoka eliminate capital punishment. So much for the glory of Buddhist civilization.
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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: DJKR letter to Aung San Suu Kyi

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

It would be rather hard to add much here. A fantastic piece.
Générosité de l’invisible.
Notre gratitude est infinie.
Le critère est l’hospitalité.

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Grigoris
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Re: DJKR letter to Aung San Suu Kyi

Post by Grigoris »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:04 amFact: Last time I checked, you were a product of Western Civilization. Must be interesting to be a self-hating westerner.
I disagree with this analysis. It is not necessary to embrace all aspects of western culture. One can use the enlightened aspects of western culture in order to criticise the destructive aspects (eg imperialism, chauvinism). As a matter of fact, if we wish to consider ourselves intelligent and cultured, we must do exactly that.

Some here are railing about the fact that Rinpoche has benefited from western culture and thus does not have a right to criticise it. Sorry, but that is BS. It is exactly because of the benefits he has gained (his immersion in western culture), that he has the right to criticise western culture (or more to the point: it's less savoury aspects). Actually, people like Rinpche (with a foot firmly planted in each culture) are in a much better position to criticise than those fully absorbed in either culture and thus blinded to habits which seem normal to them, but which are highly distasteful.

Yes, the letter is clumsy. But that does not mean that our reaction must also be clumsy too. He throws out the bait, you don't have to swallow the hook. ;)
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Grigoris
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Re: DJKR letter to Aung San Suu Kyi

Post by Grigoris »

Interesting and well reasoned. I am interested to see what Rinpoche's response, if he responds, will be.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
PeterC
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Re: DJKR letter to Aung San Suu Kyi

Post by PeterC »

This is fair. DJKr is entitled to think and say whatever he likes about anything he likes, as are we all. His views on this topic are frankly irrelevant, as he knows little about it. As to his motivations for writing this letter I think we can all draw our own conclusions. His opinion doesn’t really carry weight outside the very small group of people who know who he is, as as this discussion shows, within that group there are many who don’t care either.

It is however an issue if you happen to be one of his students. And out of consideration for those people we should exercise moderation - though not deference.
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Re: DJKR letter to Aung San Suu Kyi

Post by Malcolm »

Grigoris wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:17 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:04 amFact: Last time I checked, you were a product of Western Civilization. Must be interesting to be a self-hating westerner.
I disagree with this analysis. It is not necessary to embrace all aspects of western culture.
I never said it was.
Some here are railing about the fact that Rinpoche has benefited from western culture and thus does not have a right to criticise it. Sorry, but that is BS.
Yes, some people are saying that. That is not my point of view.
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Re: DJKR letter to Aung San Suu Kyi

Post by Malcolm »

PeterC wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:11 am
It is however an issue if you happen to be one of his students. And out of consideration for those people we should exercise moderation - though not deference.
There is a reason why high lamas should stay out of politics and avoid scholastic debates.
Sherab Rigdrol
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Re: DJKR letter to Aung San Suu Kyi

Post by Sherab Rigdrol »

For the record I never said DKJR shouldn’t criticize the west. I stated he displays cognitive dissonance and that his constant bashing of westerners makes me personally not want to connect with him as a teacher. It’s not like this is the first time :roll:
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Re: DJKR letter to Aung San Suu Kyi

Post by Quay »

For me I’m not so much interested in the authors of these pieces but rather what the pieces actually say.

I think that putting the original letter and this response side-by-side produces a clear winner. The former seemed too glib, overly simplified, and factually questionable while the latter was clear, fact-based, and persuasive.
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.
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Re: DJKR letter to Aung San Suu Kyi

Post by Malcolm »

Quay wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:47 pm
For me I’m not so much interested in the authors of these pieces but rather what the pieces actually say.

I think that putting the original letter and this response side-by-side produces a clear winner. The former seemed too glib, overly simplified, and factually questionable while the latter was clear, fact-based, and persuasive.
I really cannot stand this Western Liberal bias for facts.
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Quay
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Re: DJKR letter to Aung San Suu Kyi

Post by Quay »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:07 pm I really cannot stand this Western Liberal bias for facts.
:smile:

That seems to be one of the complaints in the original letter. I’ve tried to come up with an alternative but always seem to end up in a Monty Python skit.
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.
amanitamusc
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Re: DJKR letter to Aung San Suu Kyi

Post by amanitamusc »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:07 pm
Quay wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:47 pm
For me I’m not so much interested in the authors of these pieces but rather what the pieces actually say.

I think that putting the original letter and this response side-by-side produces a clear winner. The former seemed too glib, overly simplified, and factually questionable while the latter was clear, fact-based, and persuasive.
I really cannot stand this Western Liberal bias for facts.
What news sources do glean facts from?
Malcolm
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Re: DJKR letter to Aung San Suu Kyi

Post by Malcolm »

amanitamusc wrote: Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:45 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:07 pm
Quay wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:47 pm

For me I’m not so much interested in the authors of these pieces but rather what the pieces actually say.

I think that putting the original letter and this response side-by-side produces a clear winner. The former seemed too glib, overly simplified, and factually questionable while the latter was clear, fact-based, and persuasive.
I really cannot stand this Western Liberal bias for facts.
What news sources do glean facts from?
Multiple sources fir everything.
amanitamusc
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Re: DJKR letter to Aung San Suu Kyi

Post by amanitamusc »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:32 am
amanitamusc wrote: Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:45 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:07 pm

I really cannot stand this Western Liberal bias for facts.
What news sources do glean facts from?
Multiple sources fir everything.
:thumbsup:
haha
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Re: DJKR letter to Aung San Suu Kyi

Post by haha »

One can check out Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse's response on following questions in his facebook page.
1. Why did you write to Aung San Suu Kyi, and doesn’t your letter justify her complicity in the Burmese military’s atrocities?”
2. “Why did you post this letter publicly?”
3. People say your letter is an anti-western diatribe. Why are you so down on the west? And aren’t you being “dualistic” and divisive by stoking resentment and hatred between east and west.
4. “Why just blame the west when hypocrisy, greed and aggression are human traits? Why, for instance, do you ignore Asian aggression, like that of China or of Japan in WW2?”
5. Like many great masters of our time, shouldn’t a true Buddhist put aside all those historical and political realities, and just practice forgiveness, love and compassion?
Concluding Remarks:











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Manju
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Re: DJKR letter to Aung San Suu Kyi

Post by Manju »

Down with Valentine´s Day !

I live in Kathmandu, Nepal, and am appalled, shocked and dismayed about how the innocent Asians are forced to celebrate Valentine´s day which is DEFINITELY NOT their culture.

Asians are pushed to take on foreign values which they do not understand and which make them learn how to go in a business-like (i.e.for them hitherto unknown) manner about a lovely and innocent springtime festival.

Manju
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