Human, you are not necessary.

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Queequeg
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Human, you are not necessary.

Post by Queequeg » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:26 pm

The Robots Have Descended on Trump Country
They calculate the job losses resulting from the addition of one robot in a “commuting zone.” Their bottom line: “one more robot in a commuting zone reduces employment by about six workers.”
These job losses are concentrated
in blue collar occupations such as machinists, assemblers, material handlers and welders. Workers in these occupations engage in tasks that are being automated by industrial robots, so it is natural for them to experience the bulk of the displacement effect created by this technology.
Its astounding to see this phenomena put into a simple number.

1 robot = 6 workers

Its just a matter of time before transportation and warehousing jobs are added to that list of positions being automated.

AI and robotics are working their way up the food chain. This is really going to break the wealth distribution systems we have, not to mention probably exacerbate the stresses on communities and individuals as yet further opportunities for meaning and dignity through work are eliminated.

If only we could figure this out. We are on the verge of unlimited leisure time for humanity. Unfortunately, I don't think most of us are prepared for that scale of slack. This could be a wonderful thing but will likely be a nightmare.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Human, you are not necessary.

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:16 am

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:26 pm
The Robots Have Descended on Trump Country
They calculate the job losses resulting from the addition of one robot in a “commuting zone.” Their bottom line: “one more robot in a commuting zone reduces employment by about six workers.”
These job losses are concentrated
in blue collar occupations such as machinists, assemblers, material handlers and welders. Workers in these occupations engage in tasks that are being automated by industrial robots, so it is natural for them to experience the bulk of the displacement effect created by this technology.
Its astounding to see this phenomena put into a simple number.

1 robot = 6 workers

Its just a matter of time before transportation and warehousing jobs are added to that list of positions being automated.

AI and robotics are working their way up the food chain. This is really going to break the wealth distribution systems we have, not to mention probably exacerbate the stresses on communities and individuals as yet further opportunities for meaning and dignity through work are eliminated.

If only we could figure this out. We are on the verge of unlimited leisure time for humanity. Unfortunately, I don't think most of us are prepared for that scale of slack. This could be a wonderful thing but will likely be a nightmare.
Unlimited leisure time would be a nightmare, and blaming wealth inequality on robots is ridic, yo.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Re: Human, you are not necessary.

Post by MiphamFan » Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:40 am

Unrestricted immigration is insane with technological unemployment.

This is not like the first industrial revolution -- back then, displaced farmers could easily find unskilled menial labour jobs in factories. Today, how many unskilled labourers can become AI engineers?

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Queequeg
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Re: Human, you are not necessary.

Post by Queequeg » Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:20 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:16 am
Unlimited leisure time would be a nightmare, and blaming wealth inequality on robots is ridic, yo.
Who's blaming inequality on robots? I am suggesting that it will greatly exacerbate what's already broken but grinding along.

You don't need more leisure time? Suit yourself. :smile:
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

ford_truckin
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Re: Human, you are not necessary.

Post by ford_truckin » Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:05 am

MiphamFan wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:40 am
Unrestricted immigration is insane with technological unemployment.
No, what we need is unrestricted immigration, more globalization, and shittier wages/working conditions for the jobs that are left. Get with the program.

:tongue:

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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Human, you are not necessary.

Post by Kim O'Hara » Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:30 am

Your thread title is basically a line from an episode of "Doctor Who" - back when David Tennant was The Doctor, IIRC - but the future is obviously closer than we thought.

Don't worry, though. Civilisation as we know it is going to implode any day soon, so we won't have a problem. :tongue:

:coffee:
Kim

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Dan74
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Re: Human, you are not necessary.

Post by Dan74 » Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:47 am

Entertainment is filling the gap already. It will continue doing so. VR games etc..

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Grigoris
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Re: Human, you are not necessary.

Post by Grigoris » Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:17 am

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:26 pm
If only we could figure this out. We are on the verge of unlimited leisure time for humanity.
Sure, because the bosses replacing the workers with the robot will continue to pay the workers so they can lounge around in the Bahamas... Leisure is a privilege purchased by money. Unemployment =/= leisure.

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Grigoris
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Re: Human, you are not necessary.

Post by Grigoris » Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:27 am

Luddite.jpg
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"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Dan74
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Re: Human, you are not necessary.

Post by Dan74 » Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:43 am

Entertainment will get cheaper and more effective at control. Once we shift more into the virtual world, providing virtual goodies and benefits will not cost the elites anything at all.

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Grigoris
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Re: Human, you are not necessary.

Post by Grigoris » Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:53 am

Dan74 wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:43 am
Entertainment will get cheaper and more effective at control. Once we shift more into the virtual world, providing virtual goodies and benefits will not cost the elites anything at all.
For First Worlders? Maybe. And even then it will only be for a certain percentage of the population.

In terms of population India and China make up 37% (18 and 19% respectively) of the world's total. America is the only 1st World country in the top ten and that is with only 4.2% of the world's population. The top ten countries make up 56% of the world's population and include some of the poorest countries out there. Somehow I don't see VR technology making much of a serious impact.

For example: Yesterday I had a patient from Togo and was trying to help him get in contact with lost relatives. There is no telephone catalog for Togo. They don't even have a functioning mail system there.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Queequeg
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Re: Human, you are not necessary.

Post by Queequeg » Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:46 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:17 am
Queequeg wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:26 pm
If only we could figure this out. We are on the verge of unlimited leisure time for humanity.
Sure, because the bosses replacing the workers with the robot will continue to pay the workers so they can lounge around in the Bahamas... Leisure is a privilege purchased by money. Unemployment =/= leisure.

Excellent point. I wholly agree.

That's why I also put it in terms of the wealth distribution system. As I see it, we all have a right to share in the prosperity of our civilization. The question is how do we fairly distribute this wealth? The system we have now is not working. And robots will make it worse.

If you read the article, its actually pretty outrageous - the recent tax cut bill Trump and Republicans pushed through lets investments in things like robots offset income immediately instead of depreciated over time. I realize that's kind of esoteric for most people but that is a really bad thing for labor in an age when capital improvements often mean robotic automation.

We need some sort of universal income, universal education, universal healthcare... those would be some solid steps toward giving people the circumstances to elevate themselves and toward a culture where basic needs are met and people will be able to develop all those "frivolous" capacities like art, music, philosophy, pure science, applied science, or whatever... have the freedom to pursue interests... history, or sports, whatever your interest, or just time to chill and love. Personally, I'd probably practice a few hours a day as well as fit in all those other things I wish I could do instead of hacking away at work over stuff that in the long run doesn't matter.

Of course, as Dan points out, human beings are as likely to shrink into VR as expand their lives. As I said, more likely to turn into a nightmare.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Queequeg
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Re: Human, you are not necessary.

Post by Queequeg » Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:54 pm

Kim O'Hara wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:30 am
Civilisation as we know it is going to implode any day soon, so we won't have a problem. :tongue:
too, true.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Queequeg
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Re: Human, you are not necessary.

Post by Queequeg » Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:58 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:53 am
Dan74 wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:43 am
Entertainment will get cheaper and more effective at control. Once we shift more into the virtual world, providing virtual goodies and benefits will not cost the elites anything at all.
For First Worlders? Maybe. And even then it will only be for a certain percentage of the population.

In terms of population India and China make up 37% (18 and 19% respectively) of the world's total. America is the only 1st World country in the top ten and that is with only 4.2% of the world's population. The top ten countries make up 56% of the world's population and include some of the poorest countries out there. Somehow I don't see VR technology making much of a serious impact.

For example: Yesterday I had a patient from Togo and was trying to help him get in contact with lost relatives. There is no telephone catalog for Togo. They don't even have a functioning mail system there.
The exception doesn't make the rule.

Back in 1980, people could not imagine everyone having cell phones, let alone smart phones, and yet... Have you been to China lately?
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Grigoris
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Re: Human, you are not necessary.

Post by Grigoris » Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:01 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:58 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:53 am
Dan74 wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:43 am
Entertainment will get cheaper and more effective at control. Once we shift more into the virtual world, providing virtual goodies and benefits will not cost the elites anything at all.
For First Worlders? Maybe. And even then it will only be for a certain percentage of the population.

In terms of population India and China make up 37% (18 and 19% respectively) of the world's total. America is the only 1st World country in the top ten and that is with only 4.2% of the world's population. The top ten countries make up 56% of the world's population and include some of the poorest countries out there. Somehow I don't see VR technology making much of a serious impact.

For example: Yesterday I had a patient from Togo and was trying to help him get in contact with lost relatives. There is no telephone catalog for Togo. They don't even have a functioning mail system there.
The exception doesn't make the rule.

Back in 1980, people could not imagine everyone having cell phones, let alone smart phones, and yet... Have you been to China lately?
You think Togo is the exception? When Trump referred to shithole African countries, his analysis may not have been objective or savory, but (unfortunately) it wasn't that far off the mark. Barring a couple of north-African countries and RSA, the rest of Africa is pretty technologically undeveloped. Even RSA did not have freely available wifi and broadband systems in place yet (in capital cities) when I was there in 2010.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Queequeg
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Re: Human, you are not necessary.

Post by Queequeg » Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:02 pm

Like I said, "in 1980..."

http://www.pewglobal.org/2015/04/15/cel ... -lifeline/

Give it a little time...
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

Malcolm
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Re: Human, you are not necessary.

Post by Malcolm » Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:05 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:46 pm

That's why I also put it in terms of the wealth distribution system. As I see it, we all have a right to share in the prosperity of our civilization. The question is how do we fairly distribute this wealth? The system we have now is not working. And robots will make it worse.
No one in the US is going to get on board with broad redistribution of wealth schemes. Why? The white working class in the US is basically right-wing. Even market based socialist policies have a hard time getting off the ground here.

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Queequeg
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Re: Human, you are not necessary.

Post by Queequeg » Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:46 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:05 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:46 pm

That's why I also put it in terms of the wealth distribution system. As I see it, we all have a right to share in the prosperity of our civilization. The question is how do we fairly distribute this wealth? The system we have now is not working. And robots will make it worse.
No one in the US is going to get on board with broad redistribution of wealth schemes. Why? The white working class in the US is basically right-wing. Even market based socialist policies have a hard time getting off the ground here.
Not no one. I'm on board. I think you are. There are a good number of us. More than there were just a few years ago.

Obama care, for instance, is, in a Frankenstein sort of way, a market based socialist policy. Medicare/Medicaid, social security - those are straight up socialist policies. Despite the rhetoric, these policies are pretty popular, even among white working class. It might be a question of messaging.

That tells me its not as hopeless as you suggest. I bet if Fox News started promoting these policies they'd get passed, ASAP.

Image
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Human, you are not necessary.

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:45 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:46 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:05 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:46 pm

That's why I also put it in terms of the wealth distribution system. As I see it, we all have a right to share in the prosperity of our civilization. The question is how do we fairly distribute this wealth? The system we have now is not working. And robots will make it worse.
No one in the US is going to get on board with broad redistribution of wealth schemes. Why? The white working class in the US is basically right-wing. Even market based socialist policies have a hard time getting off the ground here.
Not no one. I'm on board. I think you are. There are a good number of us. More than there were just a few years ago.

Obama care, for instance, is, in a Frankenstein sort of way, a market based socialist policy. Medicare/Medicaid, social security - those are straight up socialist policies. Despite the rhetoric, these policies are pretty popular, even among white working class. It might be a question of messaging.

That tells me its not as hopeless as you suggest. I bet if Fox News started promoting these policies they'd get passed, ASAP.

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Queequeg
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Re: Human, you are not necessary.

Post by Queequeg » Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:09 am

:rolling:

"Keep your guvment hands off my medicare!"
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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