Human, you are not necessary.

[Dan74]

I guess the US has unique history in regards to the cult of the individual and it has its pros and cons.


When I was in LA very briefly, seeing the people riding motorbikes with no helmets on and the taxi driver telling me how they had all the speed cameras removed because people were suing the city council, it is pretty unique. Arni Schwartzenegger, incidentally, got stopped by a local cop in Melbourne for riding the bike without a helmet. That's a bicycle.


But it's traditionally led to an amazing spirit of innovation, scientific discovery and cultural advance. Not sure about now though. I saw official UN statistics recently showing that the US is one of the least upwardly mobile developed nations. Generational poverty is a thing.. And what does the cult of the individual mean in the 21 Century, when small business are squeezed out by the megacorporations, when robots are taking the jobs, those that hadn't already gone overseas, when the elites in the urban centres and the folks in the country side live in different worlds?

[Queequeg]

I guess the US has unique history in regards to the cult of the individual and it has its pros and cons.


When I was in LA very briefly, seeing the people riding motorbikes with no helmets on and the taxi driver telling me how they had all the speed cameras removed because people were suing the city council, it is pretty unique. Arni Schwartzenegger, incidentally, got stopped by a local cop in Melbourne for riding the bike without a helmet. That's a bicycle.


But it's traditionally led to an amazing spirit of innovation, scientific discovery and cultural advance. Not sure about now though. I saw official UN statistics recently showing that the US is one of the least upwardly mobile developed nations. Generational poverty is a thing.. And what does the cult of the individual mean in the 21 Century, when small business are squeezed out by the megacorporations, when robots are taking the jobs, those that hadn't already gone overseas, when the elites in the urban centres and the folks in the country side live in different worlds?

We talk about the US as though its monolithic - no society really is, and certainly not the case in countries that are big geographically and population wise. LA, for instance, is very different from NY, which are both very different from Miami, Boston, Chicago, D.C., Atlanta, Dallas, Houston... In a sense every major metro area is like a distinct city-state with its own unique history and culture, and that goes for the rural areas. Dairy farmers in upstate NY and Wisconsin might be in the same line of business, but everything from the geographical and climate elements to the business models are different. Farmers in the mid-west grow different crops under different conditions than farmers in California.

The decline of social, economic and geographical mobility is a problem. There have been boom times when the order was churned - in the late 19th c. there was a frontier where a (white man) could get land just for showing up and being willing to work it, along with industrialization in the East. Then there was the boom of the 1920s when people started figuring out ways to leverage money at scales previously unheard of. Post war period when the US was the only industrialized power in the world.

These were unique periods when opportunities were relatively widespread. In the US, we haven't caught on how unique and exceptional those periods were. The low hanging fruit is all gone right now, and success and lack of success depends on where you are born and to whom, and how hard you are willing to grind. Bill Gates is not from an American ghetto, he's from an affluent suburb that actually had a computer in the school when they were novelties. The most recent boom based in tech has intrinsic barriers to entry, basically requires that you grew up in a house with computers - which precludes everyone but the upper middle class and above. And its unlikely that any future booms will be open to just grit and willingness to work hard. There is definitely a stratification due to the nature of the economy and innovation.

This is why we need a robust education system from pre-school through college that will prepare as many children as possible to take part in these coming tech booms. We also need to take note that not everyone is cut out for that work and get back to offering useful blue collar skills - its going to be a while before robots can rewire a house or fix a broken heating system. Liberal arts educations will go back to being the luxury reserved for the people who can afford it (that disappoints me because I appreciate this education more than any other - I think it makes better human beings -but that's the truth.)

To be able to study, people need basic needs met - a comfortable home, food, healthcare.

If the US is going to actually try and commit to the American Dream, then we basically have to go socialist so that people can be fully developed individuals. We haven't widely caught on to this counterintuitive fact.

Sorry that turned into a mind dump.

[Dan74]

Good mind dump and fundamentally I agree. There are of course different ways of going socialist, but ensuring the basic necessities is essential.

[Queequeg]

There are of course different ways of going socialist

Can we explore that? Would you mind expanding on that?

[Dan74]

Well, for starters the progressive identity in recent decades has become synonymous with PC, the so-called 'cultural Marxism' though the term is silly. This change has, IMO, shifted the attention from the urgent socio-economic issues to the hand-wringing and the identity crises of the urban elites.

Then, secondly, how much state interference is necessary? All but the few heartless troglodytes agree that a fair equitable society is preferable, the question is how to achieve it. If the community can be impelled to take care of the disadvantaged, that would be surely better, no?

I don't pretend to have all the answers, nor do I even know enough to draw even tentative conclusions. Here in Switzerland, there is certainly a social net, but many still fall through. Recent report indicates that at least 600000 people in a country of 8 million live below the poverty line. This is in one of the wealthiest places in the world. But the majority of the problems are due to the folks simply not coping due to personal and family issues and in many case consequent drug abuse, societal pressures and demands of the system, rather than the actual lack of support.

In Australia, the State did more and for a long time, there was quite a successful socialist democracy with free medical care, even free education for a little while, but now, the social benefits have not kept up with inflation, more and more people live below the poverty line and are generally left out of the social project. Which I am guessing is also the feeling in the streets of Paris, as we saw the protests..

Clearly a major rethink of how we conduct our business as a society is warranted. Classical socialism, nationalising a lot of things, raising taxes is a recipe for poverty while the rest of the world is neoliberal - business will just move elsewhere. We need global action.

[ford_truckin]

I guess the US has unique history in regards to the cult of the individual and it has its pros and cons.


When I was in LA very briefly, seeing the people riding motorbikes with no helmets on and the taxi driver telling me how they had all the speed cameras removed because people were suing the city council, it is pretty unique. Arni Schwartzenegger, incidentally, got stopped by a local cop in Melbourne for riding the bike without a helmet. That's a bicycle.


But it's traditionally led to an amazing spirit of innovation,ientific discovery and cultural advance. Not sure about now though. I saw official UN statistics recently showing that the US is one of the least upwardly mobile developed nations. Generational poverty is a thing.. And what does the cult of the individual mean in the 21 Century, when small business are squeezed out by the megacorporations, when robots are taking the jobs, those that hadn't already gone overseas, when the elites in the urban centres and the folks in the country side live in different worlds?

We talk about the US as though its monolithic - no society really is, and certainly not the case in countries that are big geographically and population wise. LA, for instance, is very different from NY, which are both very different from Miami, Boston, Chicago, D.C., Atlanta, Dallas, Houston... In a sense every major metro area is like a distinct city-state with its own unique history and culture, and that goes for the rural areas. Dairy farmers in upstate NY and Wisconsin might be in the same line of business, but everything from the geographical and climate elements to the business models are different. Farmers in the mid-west grow different crops under different conditions than farmers in California.

The decline of social, economic and geographical mobility is a problem. There have been boom times when the order was churned - in the late 19th c. there was a frontier where a (white man) could get land just for showing up and being willing to work it, along with industrialization in the East. Then there was the boom of the 1920s when people started figuring out ways to leverage money at scales previously unheard of. Post war period when the US was the only industrialized power in the world.

These were unique periods when opportunities were relatively widespread. In the US, we haven't caught on how unique and exceptional those periods were. The low hanging fruit is all gone right now, and success and lack of success depends on where you are born and to whom, and how hard you are willing to grind. Bill Gates is not from an American ghetto, he's from an affluent suburb that actually had a computer in the school when they were novelties. The most recent boom based in tech has intrinsic barriers to entry, basically requires that you grew up in a house with computers - which precludes everyone but the upper middle class and above. And its unlikely that any future booms will be open to just grit and willingness to work hard. There is definitely a stratification due to the nature of the economy and innovation.

This is why we need a robust education system from pre-school through college that will prepare as many children as possible to take part in these coming tech booms. We also need to take note that not everyone is cut out for that work and get back to offering useful blue collar skills - its going to be a while before robots can rewire a house or fix a broken heating system. Liberal arts educations will go back to being the luxury reserved for the people who can afford it (that disappoints me because I appreciate this education more than any other - I think it makes better human beings -but that's the truth.)

To be able to study, people need basic needs met - a comfortable home, food, healthcare.

If the US is going to actually try and commit to the American Dream, then we basically have to go socialist so that people can be fully developed individuals. We haven't widely caught on to this counterintuitive fact.

Sorry that turned into a mind dump.

Military option is always there. It offers free college, healthcare and stable jobs that arent directly involved in killing.Not a bad way to earn a living and climb up the socio economic ladder.

[Malcolm]

We need global action.

Good luck with that, people still put nation before class.

[Grigoris]

Military option is always there. It offers free college, healthcare and stable jobs that arent directly involved in killing.Not a bad way to earn a living and climb up the socio economic ladder.

Oh look, a disclaimer. How cute.

[ford_truckin]

Military option is always there. It offers free college, healthcare and stable jobs that arent directly involved in killing.Not a bad way to earn a living and climb up the socio economic ladder.

Oh look, a disclaimer. How cute.

There aren't really many options out there for lower income people in the states. It isn't like Norway or Sweden where everyone has a chance to get ahead.

[Grigoris]

There aren't really many options out there for lower income people in the states. It isn't like Norway or Sweden where everyone has a chance to get ahead.

That is a pretty poor excuse to engage in Wrong Livelihood. A minute ago (in another thread) you were talking about the definitive nature of Theravada teachings and now you are suddenly engaging in interpretations and looking for loopholes.

Would you make the same excuses for people involved in gang activity too?

[ford_truckin]

There aren't really many options out there for lower income people in the states. It isn't like Norway or Sweden where everyone has a chance to get ahead.

That is a pretty poor excuse to engage in Wrong Livelihood. A minute ago (in another thread) you were talking about the definitive nature of Theravada teachings and now you are suddenly engaging in interpretations and looking for loopholes.

Would you make the same excuses for people involved in gang activity too?

When did being a chef or medic who saves lives become wrong livelihoods?

[Grigoris]

When did being a chef or medic who saves lives become wrong livelihoods?

When you are feeding people and patching them up specifically so that they can be more effective at killing. When you are integral part of the killing machine/process.

Nothing exists in a vacuum, yah know?

[Dan74]

We need global action.

Good luck with that, people still put nation before class.

I don't know if people put nation before anything much. Look at France, once a bastion of national pride, now people are disaffected and seem to worry primarily about their hip-pocket - the haves, to stay the haves, and the have-nots to have more, even if it costs future generations more than double.

The body politic, the common project is dying. But this is not to say that nothing can be done. If good inspirational people step forward bravely, who knows what could be achieved.

[Malcolm]

We need global action.

Good luck with that, people still put nation before class.

I don't know if people put nation before anything much. Look at France, once a bastion of national pride, now people are disaffected and seem to worry primarily about their hip-pocket - the haves, to stay the haves, and the have-nots to have more, even if it costs future generations more than double.

The body politic, the common project is dying. But this is not to say that nothing can be done. If good inspirational people step forward bravely, who knows what could be achieved.

I guarantee that a large number of yellow jackets voted fir Le Pen. Alternative fir Germany is at something like 30% in the German legislature, Brazil just voted in a fascist, the list goes on.

[clyde]

When did being a chef or medic who saves lives become wrong livelihoods?

When you are feeding people and patching them up specifically so that they can be more effective at killing. When you are integral part of the killing machine/process.

Nothing exists in a vacuum, yah know?

I agree, the people who cook the food that feeds the military are an integral part of the killing machine/process, and the people who deliver the food that the cooks cook that feeds the military, and the people who sell the food that the deliverers deliver that the cooks cook, and the people who raise the food that the seller sell that the deliverers deliver that the cooks cook, etc., etc., etc.

We are all integral parts of the killing machine/process.

[Grigoris]

I guarantee that a large number of yellow jackets voted fir Le Pen.

A number of times some far-Right elements tried to infiltrate the demonstrations, but were beaten and kicked out by other protestors.

In Greece, during the anti-austerity protests, Golden Dawn members physically supported the police, helping them to attack protests, doing the dirty work of personally targeting unionists and organisers, etc... I think you will find the supporters of Le Pen are currently doing the same thing.

The French far-Right will try to hijack the movement to draw electoral support against the two main political parties (like they did in Greece), that doesn't mean that the movement is far-Right.

[Grigoris]

We are all integral parts of the killing machine/process.

No we are not. For example: The military is payed for by tax money, but the tax payer is not asked where their taxes will go.

An individual, group or company willingly supplying and supporting the military though, well that is a different story.

Don't make excuses for people involved in wrong livelihood, because there are always countless other options; including choosing poverty. I can understand choosing a stint in the military over poverty, but that still does not mean one is not engaging in wrong livelihood.

Like I asked before: Would you make the same excuses for a person that chooses to join a gang to climb out of poverty (for example)?

[Grigoris]

Good luck with that, people still put nation before class.

I agree. People do not want to identify as working class, as the idea that the working class is actually the motor of modern history has become unfashionable. People like to identify as something higher or loftier. Identification with one's class worked during a period when class mobility was basically non-existent and even then people seemed to identify more with a movement based in the working class, than with the class itself.

[Malcolm]

I guarantee that a large number of yellow jackets voted fir Le Pen.

A number of times some far-Right elements tried to infiltrate the demonstrations, but were beaten and kicked out by other protestors.

In Greece, during the anti-austerity protests, Golden Dawn members physically supported the police, helping them to attack protests, doing the dirty work of personally targeting unionists and organisers, etc... I think you will find the supporters of Le Pen are currently doing the same thing.

The French far-Right will try to hijack the movement to draw electoral support against the two main political parties (like they did in Greece), that doesn't mean that the movement is far-Right.

Depends on where in France one lives. I have a friend who lives in the South of France, near the Spanish border. In his little village, everyone voted for Marine Le Pen. The left and the far left in France, UK, etc., is mainly in urban centers; the rural areas, like the US, are dominated by the right and the far right.

[Yavana]

The body politic, the common project is dying. But this is not to say that nothing can be done. If good inspirational people step forward bravely, who knows what could be achieved.

What can be done, really?