American Circumcision

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climb-up
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American Circumcision

Post by climb-up » Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:20 pm

I heard a podcast with the filmmaker yesterday and am watching this now.
It is far more in depth than I would have imagined. it is, I think, very important and absolutely heartbreaking/




LoveFromColorado
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Re: American Circumcision

Post by LoveFromColorado » Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:27 pm

I've wondered about this as I had a friend who was very adamant about this cause. Back when I briefly looked into this (thirteen years ago or so when my wife was pregnant with our first child), the research seemed very mixed on the subject and lent itself to bias for one side or the other depending on who was presenting it.

At the risk of TMI, I'm a 43 year old male who was circumcised when I was born. I have no trauma or recollection of the event, and it hasn't slowed me down one bit. My experience doesn't vouch for everyone, of course. My wife and I ended up with all girls in our family so I have not had a reason to revisit the subject.

Thanks for the recommendation! I think I saw this title pop up on Netflix or Amazon Video at one point but never looked into it. I'm a bit skeptical of the dearth of documentaries out these days as they tend to try to artificially draw out emotions where there were none previously. At worst they are a waste of time. Since this at least received one vote of confidence, I might check it out :)

(on a related note, the PBS documentary on Netflix right now called Civilizations is fantastic... I just finished the second episode which covers the history of art throughout various cultures and it prompts some questioning of basic assumptions we make in everyday life and where those assumptions come from).

climb-up
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Re: American Circumcision

Post by climb-up » Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:31 am

I would love to hear your reaction.
I definitely give it a vote of confidence, although I am already against circumcision so I may be biased.

I am quite sure that most men don't have trauma memories (although some definitely seem to); but the health risks, lack of consent and removal of pleasure organs and risk of trauma is extreme; especially when the health 'benefits' seems slim at best

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justsit
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Re: American Circumcision

Post by justsit » Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:27 am

From a medical point of view, there is no compelling reason for circumcision. The rest of the world does just fine without it.

IMO, this procedure has been co-opted by the medical profession as a money maker, in the same way it has happened with the perfectly normal process of childbirth. And to perform an irreversible and disfiguring procedure without consent is abominable, no different than FGM.

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Re: American Circumcision

Post by Wayfarer » Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:54 am

frankly it amazes me the things that some people will protest about. (I was going to say 'Americans' but that might be discriminatory.) :thinking:
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi

climb-up
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Re: American Circumcision

Post by climb-up » Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:15 am

Wayfarer wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:54 am
frankly it amazes me the things that some people will protest about. (I was going to say 'Americans' but that might be discriminatory.) :thinking:
Are you saying it amazes you that people will protest circumcision?
I’m curious if you also find it amazing that people will protest female genital mutilation?

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Miroku
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Re: American Circumcision

Post by Miroku » Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:26 am

climb-up wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:15 am
Wayfarer wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:54 am
frankly it amazes me the things that some people will protest about. (I was going to say 'Americans' but that might be discriminatory.) :thinking:
Are you saying it amazes you that people will protest circumcision?
I’m curious if you also find it amazing that people will protest female genital mutilation?
Its not the same. Penis is frankly pretty useful after circumsition. Female genital mutilation take that pleasure part of it at leasty partly away and has no benefits, while circumcision actually does. Also some males need circumcision, unlike females needing mutilation. That is why it is called mutilation. Frankly not very good simile.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

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Re: American Circumcision

Post by Mantrik » Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:30 am

Yup, America could do with circumcision - of the prick at the top.
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
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climb-up
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Re: American Circumcision

Post by climb-up » Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:22 pm

Miroku wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:26 am
climb-up wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:15 am
Wayfarer wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:54 am
frankly it amazes me the things that some people will protest about. (I was going to say 'Americans' but that might be discriminatory.) :thinking:
Are you saying it amazes you that people will protest circumcision?
I’m curious if you also find it amazing that people will protest female genital mutilation?
Its not the same. Penis is frankly pretty useful after circumsition. Female genital mutilation take that pleasure part of it at leasty partly away and has no benefits, while circumcision actually does. Also some males need circumcision, unlike females needing mutilation. That is why it is called mutilation. Frankly not very good simile.
I think you might be surprised if you watch the documentary.
The penis can be used after circumcision (usually, excepting botched operations), as can the vagina. The documentary does present both sides and even has a women who had a circumcision in Sierra Leone and says that FGM is great and adds to health, hygiene and pleasure (same arguments made for male circumcision).

The is another woman who experienced FGM, and is activist against it, and considers male circumcision to the same thing.

FGM is meant to take pleasure sensations away. Male circumcision started in the West, talking about non-religious circumcision, as a Victorian method to prevent masturbation (considered a huge health risk at the time) and removes a huge number of nerve endings, that contribute to pleasure, as well as have protective and naturally lubricating benefits. There are multiple parts of the foreskin, which all have their own pleasurable sensations, which are all removed during circumcision.

There are some medical cases where adults need circumcision. There are other medical reasons for removing body parts, but those body parts are not removed preemptively in infants just in case it might ever be a problem.

I don’t think the simile of circumcision and FGM poor at all. The public perception is that they are miles apart though and that “they” do that and it’s weird and that “we” do this and it’s okay.
Last edited by climb-up on Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.

climb-up
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Re: American Circumcision

Post by climb-up » Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:28 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:30 am
Yup, America could do with circumcision - of the prick at the top.
I think it’s more of a tumorectomy that we need!
Unfortunately it’s not just isolated at the top and the body of the American people is dividing and fighting against itself.
American Chemotherapy? :cry:

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Mantrik
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Re: American Circumcision

Post by Mantrik » Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:57 pm

I think all body modification should be a matter for the person themselves when over 18, unless it is an essential medical procedure. So, no piercings, tattoos, botox etc. Maybe controversially, I don't regard 'transitioning' surgery any differently - over 18.
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

climb-up
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Re: American Circumcision

Post by climb-up » Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:01 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:57 pm
I think all body modification should be a matter for the person themselves when over 18, unless it is an essential medical procedure. So, no piercings, tattoos, botox etc. Maybe controversially, I don't regard 'transitioning' surgery any differently - over 18.
I agree 100%, and if someone wants a circumcision as an adult that is totally fine.
I can’t feel right about transitioning surgery and hormones as a child, but I understand that without the hormones then puberty makes everything different ...that whole situation confuses me, and I have no problem with any individuals choices, but until I’m convinced I have to go with my feelings that if you aren’t an adult you can’t make that decision (or have it made).

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Karma Dorje
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Re: American Circumcision

Post by Karma Dorje » Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:25 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:30 am
Yup, America could do with circumcision - of the prick at the top.
Yes, circumcision can be quite effective in such cases, but only if one removes the foreskin starting at the neck.
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava

Tiago Simões
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Re: American Circumcision

Post by Tiago Simões » Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:15 am

You Americans are weird... :tongue:
Then, the Licchavi Vimalakīrti spoke to the elder Śāriputra and the great disciples: “Reverends, eat of the food of the Tathāgata! It is ambrosia perfumed by the great compassion. But do not fix your minds in narrow-minded attitudes, lest you be unable to receive its gift.”

- Chapter 9, The Feast Brought by the Emanated Incarnation
The Noble Mahāyāna Sūtra “The Teaching of Vimalakīrti”

tatpurusa
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Re: American Circumcision

Post by tatpurusa » Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:05 pm

Circumcision, like all other kinds of unnecessary interventions hurting the natural, healthy corporal integrity of a person without his consent
is abuse and arbitrary torture

tingdzin
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Re: American Circumcision

Post by tingdzin » Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:09 am

I know of someone who was circumcised, and said it hurt a lot -- he couldn't walk for a year afterwards.

Sorry, a serious subject but a little humor never hurts.

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KathyLauren
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Re: American Circumcision

Post by KathyLauren » Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:43 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:57 pm
Maybe controversially, I don't regard 'transitioning' surgery any differently - over 18.
That's a bit of a straw man. No reputable surgeon would perform transition surgery on someone under 18. It just doesn't happen.
climb-up wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:01 pm

I agree 100%, and if someone wants a circumcision as an adult that is totally fine.
I can’t feel right about transitioning surgery and hormones as a child, but I understand that without the hormones then puberty makes everything different ...that whole situation confuses me, and I have no problem with any individuals choices, but until I’m convinced I have to go with my feelings that if you aren’t an adult you can’t make that decision (or have it made).
Children aren't treated with hormones either, at least up to the age of 16. Transition treatment for children consists only of hormone blockers, the purpose of which is to preserve the childs right to choose when they become an adult. If natural puberty is allowed to occur, a transgender child's eventual transition options are restricted to painful ones. Preventing puberty by blockers preserves their ability to eventually transition smoothly and painlessly, and is 100% reversable at any time.

Similarly, I am opposed to infant circumcision. If they want to have it done, they can have it done at 18.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy

tingdzin
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Re: American Circumcision

Post by tingdzin » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:11 am

KathyLauren wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:43 pm
Transition treatment for children consists only of hormone blockers, the purpose of which is to preserve the childs right to choose when they become an adult. If natural puberty is allowed to occur, a transgender child's eventual transition options are restricted to painful ones.
I am appalled that someone who (in most jurisdictions) is legally assumed to be not competent to buy and consume alcohol or marijuana, sign contracts, or have sex should be considered able to take metabolism-altering chemicals because they are emotionally uncomfortable. The fact that "mainstream" professionals even consider it is a sign of societal decadence, and criminally negligent parenting.

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rory
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Re: American Circumcision

Post by rory » Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:16 pm

tingdzin wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:11 am
KathyLauren wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:43 pm
Transition treatment for children consists only of hormone blockers, the purpose of which is to preserve the childs right to choose when they become an adult. If natural puberty is allowed to occur, a transgender child's eventual transition options are restricted to painful ones.
I am appalled that someone who (in most jurisdictions) is legally assumed to be not competent to buy and consume alcohol or marijuana, sign contracts, or have sex should be considered able to take metabolism-altering chemicals because they are emotionally uncomfortable. The fact that "mainstream" professionals even consider it is a sign of societal decadence, and criminally negligent parenting.
Hormone blockers are dangerous and should not be given to children at all. Lupron is dangerous with bad side effects! Please read this link to transgender trend:
https://www.transgendertrend.com/puberty-blockers/
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
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Nemo
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Re: American Circumcision

Post by Nemo » Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:07 pm

justsit wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:27 am
From a medical point of view, there is no compelling reason for circumcision. The rest of the world does just fine without it.

IMO, this procedure has been co-opted by the medical profession as a money maker, in the same way it has happened with the perfectly normal process of childbirth. And to perform an irreversible and disfiguring procedure without consent is abominable, no different than FGM.
I'm in Canada. A gomco clamp costs 12$. There is no money in it. It takes 2 minutes and some of the clamps in the birth unit are over 40 years old. It does reduce the transmission of STDs and lowers incidence of penile cancer. Some also find the procedure aesthetically pleasing. It's not really a big deal either way.

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