What is Art ?

Casual conversation between friends. Anything goes (almost).
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Douglas Westbury
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What is Art ?

Post by Douglas Westbury » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:40 am


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Douglas Westbury
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Re: What is Art ?

Post by Douglas Westbury » Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:56 pm

I am sorry no one wants to engage with me on this subject

I think there must be quite a lot to say about how Western ideas to do with "art" relate to the teaching of Lord Buddha

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Queequeg
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Re: What is Art ?

Post by Queequeg » Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:57 pm

I think you might not realize that your opening post wasn't really inviting to discussion.

Why don't you share some thoughts on the subject and maybe someone will be interested in engaging.

Personally, I find Buddhist art a wonder. My wife is an art historian who studies, among other subjects, Buddhist art and my home his filled with Buddhist art books. I'd love to discuss it, but you don't offer much of a hook.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Yavana
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Re: What is Art ?

Post by Yavana » Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:57 pm

Bjork.

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Douglas Westbury
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Re: What is Art ?

Post by Douglas Westbury » Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:59 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:57 pm
I think you might not realize that your opening post wasn't really inviting to discussion.

Why don't you share some thoughts on the subject and maybe someone will be interested in engaging.

Personally, I find Buddhist art a wonder. My wife is an art historian who studies, among other subjects, Buddhist art and my home his filled with Buddhist art books. I'd love to discuss it, but you don't offer much of a hook.

Dear Queequeg !!!

Thank you so much for your reply !!!!!

This question "What is Art" was a favourite of my painting teacher

I seem to have lost touch with him ...

http://www.cliffholden.co.uk

I don't know if he would approve of what I am doing now

I don't even know if he is still alive

But if he is alive he would be 100 years old this year

I posted the link to some of my work as a kind of a teaser

https://www.flickr.com/photos/54879232@N06

I am genuinely very interested to know what you might make of it

If you can bear with me ... although it might look like I am just trying to promote myself ...

I really do want to find people to discuss these ideas with

And I am sure our discussion would soon bring us back to the main topics of the Buddhadharma

For example :

1. Lineage transmission (teacher/student)

2. Language of knowledge and being (epistemology/ontology)

3. Meditation and creativity

4. Emptiness

Thank you !!!!

With all best wishes

yours Douglas

Image

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catmoon
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Re: What is Art ?

Post by catmoon » Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:49 pm

I recently read "What is Art", a small book by no-one less than Leo Tolstoy. In the first two chapters he methodically demolishes every definition that has been widely held since the ancient Greeks. The thing is, no matter how you try to grapple with the question, it is just far too subjective for any meaningful, general answer to exist.
Sergeant Schultz knew everything there was to know.

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Douglas Westbury
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Re: What is Art ?

Post by Douglas Westbury » Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:08 am

catmoon wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:49 pm
I recently read "What is Art", a small book by no-one less than Leo Tolstoy. In the first two chapters he methodically demolishes every definition that has been widely held since the ancient Greeks. The thing is, no matter how you try to grapple with the question, it is just far too subjective for any meaningful, general answer to exist.
Thank you catmoon !!!

I have found a free pdf of that book which anyone who is interested might like to download ...

https://ia800306.us.archive.org/17/item ... lsuoft.pdf

Image

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Supramundane
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Re: What is Art ?

Post by Supramundane » Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:15 am

very interesting images, sir.

they remind me somewhat of Chu Teh Chun

http://www.artnet.com/artists/chu-teh-chun/

who created landscapes that are clearly not of this world.

I have reproductions and have spent many wistful hours meditating on the arcane vistas that exist only in the mind.

Image

trying to find the definition of art or music is like trying to solve a Zen koan.

art is the manipulation of images to express meaning; music of sounds.

but the fault in those definition is that what makes great art/music is that which retains a certain mystery. the message is deliberately obscured and many-faceted, intentionally open to many interpretations. thus the 'expression of meaning' is always 'coy'.

the wilful placement of contradictions and paradoxes perhaps seeks to render, not reality, but Truth.

Art in Buddhism has been used to convey ineffable meaning and truth too: Zen gardens, for example.

i wish i could upload some of the paintings of Chu Teh Chun to better illustrate my meaning, sir.

stevie
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Re: What is Art ?

Post by stevie » Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:16 am

Douglas Westbury wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:59 pm

And I am sure our discussion would soon bring us back to the main topics of the Buddhadharma
Sure there is nothing that isn't related to Buddhadharma. A liking for arts e.g. expresses a liking for the form realms.

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Ayu
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Re: What is Art ?

Post by Ayu » Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:31 am

stevie wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:16 am
Douglas Westbury wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:59 pm

And I am sure our discussion would soon bring us back to the main topics of the Buddhadharma
Sure there is nothing that isn't related to Buddhadharma. A liking for arts e.g. expresses a liking for the form realms.
I have to disagree slightly. Art must not always deal with form. Modern art rather expresses non-material states of mind. It deals with cognitive ideas, emotions, passions and desires as well. It can talk about injustice, speak out warnings.

I think, the art is never disconnected from the artist. And the artist is more than only a being in the form realm. Isn't it so?


Edit: And also the historic buddhist art isn't about form but about states of mind.
For the benefit and ease of all sentient beings. :heart:

stevie
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Re: What is Art ?

Post by stevie » Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:01 am

Ayu wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:31 am
stevie wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:16 am
Douglas Westbury wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:59 pm

And I am sure our discussion would soon bring us back to the main topics of the Buddhadharma
Sure there is nothing that isn't related to Buddhadharma. A liking for arts e.g. expresses a liking for the form realms.
I have to disagree slightly. Art must not always deal with form. Modern art rather expresses non-material states of mind. It deals with cognitive ideas, emotions, passions and desires as well. It can talk about injustice, speak out warnings.

I think, the art is never disconnected from the artist. And the artist is more than only a being in the form realm. Isn't it so?


Edit: And also the historic buddhist art isn't about form but about states of mind.
That is appropriately expressed since art in the realm of humans necessarily has also aspects of the desire realm like emotions, passions and desires and the artists may be inspired by formless nature as well.
Maybe it is mainly the abstract aspects of arts in painting, music, dance, sculpture etc, i.e. the liking of those that is closely linked to the form realm because the abstract aspects lack the coarse passions of the desire realm and the extreme loftiness of the formless realm.

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Re: What is Art ?

Post by jake » Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:31 pm

I'd like to share one of my favorite quotes
Unji gi 'The Meanings of the Letter Hum wrote: A foolish painter once used many colors to paint a realistic picture of a horrible yaksa, but when he finished and stepped back to examine his work he collapsed to the ground in abject fear. It is the same with ordinary beings caught in the cycle of birth and death. Imagining on their own that dharmas have a source, they paint a picture of the triple world. They become enmeshed in it themselves, their minds engulfed in the flames [of clinging], experiencing all forms of suffering. The Tathagata, the wise painter, has thoroughly realized this. He thus without impediment establishes the Mandala of Great Compassion [Mahakarunagarbhodbhava mandala]. Accordingly, we can say that the profound and secret treasury is secret only because ordinary beings make it so themselves. It is not the Tathagata who conceals it." -written by Kukai Kobo Daishi and translated by Takagi and Dreitlein, from Kukai on the Philosophy of Language
*any errors are my own.

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Queequeg
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Re: What is Art ?

Post by Queequeg » Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:05 pm

jake wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:31 pm
I'd like to share one of my favorite quotes
Unji gi 'The Meanings of the Letter Hum wrote: A foolish painter once used many colors to paint a realistic picture of a horrible yaksa, but when he finished and stepped back to examine his work he collapsed to the ground in abject fear. It is the same with ordinary beings caught in the cycle of birth and death. Imagining on their own that dharmas have a source, they paint a picture of the triple world. They become enmeshed in it themselves, their minds engulfed in the flames [of clinging], experiencing all forms of suffering. The Tathagata, the wise painter, has thoroughly realized this. He thus without impediment establishes the Mandala of Great Compassion [Mahakarunagarbhodbhava mandala]. Accordingly, we can say that the profound and secret treasury is secret only because ordinary beings make it so themselves. It is not the Tathagata who conceals it." -written by Kukai Kobo Daishi and translated by Takagi and Dreitlein, from Kukai on the Philosophy of Language
*any errors are my own.
:applause:
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Queequeg
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Re: What is Art ?

Post by Queequeg » Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:04 pm

Went to the Metropolitan Museum of Art in NYC the other day. Was strolling the Himalayan gallery and came to this. Its about 2 meters tall.

Just my impression, but I wonder if the artist is feeling rupture or alienation in their faith.

ImageImage
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Douglas Westbury
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Re: What is Art ?

Post by Douglas Westbury » Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:49 pm

Supramundane wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:15 am
They remind me somewhat of Chu Teh Chun ...

http://www.artnet.com/artists/chu-teh-chun/

I wish I could upload some of the paintings of Chu Teh Chun to better illustrate my meaning, sir.
Hello Supramundane !

Thank you so much for your response to my work !!!

And thank you for introducing me to the paintings of Chu Teh Chun

Image

Chu Teh Chun - Symphonie Festive (2003)

http://pictify.saatchigallery.com/491309/chu-teh-chun-symphonie-festive-2003

Although my wife is Chinese I know very little about modernist Chinese painting ...

So you have opened up a whole new world for me to explore now !!!!

From the website you shared with us I see that Chu Teh Chun and his fellow artists, Wu Guanzhong and Zao Wou-Ki, became affectionately known as the “Three Musketeers” of Chinese Modernist Art

Also it is very interesting to see how they were influenced by Nicolas de Stäel

Here is a reproduction of a painting by de Stäel ...

Image

(By the way ... if we want to share an image on this forum we have to find the link to the image file ... and that is not always easy with reproductions of artwork ... because commercial websites are usually designed in a way to prevent downloading the image for free)

If you would like me to tell you more about my work we could do that by private message

I would love to open up a correspondence with you

With very best wishes

yours Douglas

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catmoon
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Re: What is Art ?

Post by catmoon » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:47 am

What is art?


Image


This is art.
Sergeant Schultz knew everything there was to know.

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Supramundane
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Re: What is Art ?

Post by Supramundane » Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:00 am

Douglas Westbury wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:49 pm
Supramundane wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:15 am
They remind me somewhat of Chu Teh Chun ...

http://www.artnet.com/artists/chu-teh-chun/

I wish I could upload some of the paintings of Chu Teh Chun to better illustrate my meaning, sir.
Hello Supramundane !

Thank you so much for your response to my work !!!

And thank you for introducing me to the paintings of Chu Teh Chun

Image

Chu Teh Chun - Symphonie Festive (2003)

http://pictify.saatchigallery.com/49130 ... stive-2003

Although my wife is Chinese I know very little about modernist Chinese painting ...

So you have opened up a whole new world for me to explore now !!!!

From the website you shared with us I see that Chu Teh Chun and his fellow artists, Wu Guanzhong and Zao Wou-Ki, became affectionately known as the “Three Musketeers” of Chinese Modernist Art

Also it is very interesting to see how they were influenced by Nicolas de Stäel

Here is a reproduction of a painting by de Stäel ...

Image

(By the way ... if we want to share an image on this forum we have to find the link to the image file ... and that is not always easy with reproductions of artwork ... because commercial websites are usually designed in a way to prevent downloading the image for free)

If you would like me to tell you more about my work we could do that by private message

I would love to open up a correspondence with you

With very best wishes

yours Douglas
Yes, Zao Wou-Ki is quite good; but Chu Teh Chun is my fave.

Certainly ---- always happy to discuss art.

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Supramundane
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Re: What is Art ?

Post by Supramundane » Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:04 am

catmoon wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:47 am
What is art?


Image


This is art.
Image

http://meetingbenches.com/wp-content/up ... onet-8.jpg

Can you feel the wind?

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Douglas Westbury
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Re: What is Art ?

Post by Douglas Westbury » Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:31 am

catmoon wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:47 am
"Pont Argenteuil" by Monet

This is art.
Thank you catmoon ! I love Monet too !!!

Here is something I found which comes from your part of the world ...


(I would love to know what you think)


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

GROUP OF SEVEN

The group was initially formed by Lawren Harris, Tom Thomson, James Edward Harvey MacDonald, Arthur Lismer, Frederick Varley, Frank Johnston, and Franklin Carmichael.

Several members of the group worked with commercial illustration and design at the beginning of their careers.

They started to get together to sketch and discovered their shared interests, discussing the need for change in Canadian art ...

Their work was influenced by the aesthetics of other modern artists from Europe (who had the same concern for an art free from Academic terms) ... artists like Paul Gauguin, Emile Bernard, and Edvard Munch.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_of_Seven_(artists)

https://www.google.com/search?q=group+o ... s+for+sale


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


For example :

1. What is the difference between art and design ?

2. What is the difference between art and commercial illustration ?

3. What do you think is wrong with the aesthetics of the Academy ?

4. What does it mean to be free from Academic terms ?


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

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Douglas Westbury
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Re: What is Art ?

Post by Douglas Westbury » Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:03 pm

Is this art ?

Image

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