In between Taoism and Buddhism

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LoveFromColorado
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In between Taoism and Buddhism

Post by LoveFromColorado » Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:11 pm

Hey all,

Fairly general question here, but can anyone recommend any good resources for someone who is finding themselves moving towards a balance between Buddhism and Taoism? I have a library of good Buddhist material but am a little light on the Taoist side as it is relatively new to me. In reading the Tao Te Ching, I am personally seeing that the two are almost like looking at the same coin from different sides, at least to me.

I realize that if one were to start to drill down into the literal details (especially on the Buddhist side) then one might object that the two are not compatible. Personally, that style of thought is the hole I have been digging out of since my Protestant upbringing and early years at Seminary. I have no argument with or judgment against it, but that is not the discussion I am looking for here as it would be easy to find in my own head.

Thank you!

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SunWuKong
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Re: In between Taoism and Buddhism

Post by SunWuKong » Sat Apr 13, 2019 5:21 pm

I let my practice be my practice, and the World Oyster is my Reading List. Check this out:

https://terebess.hu/english/chuangtzu.html
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

LoveFromColorado
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Re: In between Taoism and Buddhism

Post by LoveFromColorado » Sat Apr 13, 2019 5:59 pm

Awesome, thank you!

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SunWuKong
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Re: In between Taoism and Buddhism

Post by SunWuKong » Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:45 pm

Thought you might like that!
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

haha
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Re: In between Taoism and Buddhism

Post by haha » Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:06 am

It may happen that when one has desire, he or she does not have the resources. When one gets the resources, he or she has already lost the interest. So, it is better to find the resources when one has desire. If one reads or practices without limiting to a small scope or a traditional boundry, one can see the things from different horizons. It is said that the certain bhumi bodhisattva learns everything to benefit others(probably forth bhumi).

Very long ago, I had read “Chuang Tzu: Basic Writings” from a library. Now days, it is easy to find complete writing. :twothumbsup:

You will find many translations by Thomas Cleary.
Writings of Mantak Chia and Jerry A. Johnson (daoistmagic) would be useful.
TCM books with esoteric aspects are interesting, too.

amanitamusc
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Re: In between Taoism and Buddhism

Post by amanitamusc » Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:00 am

LoveFromColorado wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:11 pm
Hey all,

Fairly general question here, but can anyone recommend any good resources for someone who is finding themselves moving towards a balance between Buddhism and Taoism? I have a library of good Buddhist material but am a little light on the Taoist side as it is relatively new to me. In reading the Tao Te Ching, I am personally seeing that the two are almost like looking at the same coin from different sides, at least to me.

I realize that if one were to start to drill down into the literal details (especially on the Buddhist side) then one might object that the two are not compatible. Personally, that style of thought is the hole I have been digging out of since my Protestant upbringing and early years at Seminary. I have no argument with or judgment against it, but that is not the discussion I am looking for here as it would be easy to find in my own head.

Thank you!
You could say the same thing about any religion but then you dig the hole of perennialism.You know like if you just tweak it a bit.

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Kim O'Hara
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Re: In between Taoism and Buddhism

Post by Kim O'Hara » Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:17 am

LoveFromColorado wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:11 pm
... a little light on the Taoist side as it is relatively new to me ...
I like The Inner Chapters, introduced here https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/355 ... r_Chapters although my edition is a different one (it's beautifully produced but I'm not going to recommend it because the commentaries by the translator are a bit simple-minded)
The I Ching is not really Taoist but some knowledge of it will help you a lot in making sense of Taoism. Wilhelm's translation is now very dated but his introduction - https://www.iging.com/intro/introduc.htm - could still be worth reading.

There is a strand of Taoism which parallels Western alchemy, kabbala and ritual magic. I'm not sure you would be interested but if you are, The Secret of the Golden Flower is a reasonable starting point - http://thesecretofthegoldenflower.com/index.html.

:reading:
Kim

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Wayfarer
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Re: In between Taoism and Buddhism

Post by Wayfarer » Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:52 am

I know he has plenty of critics, but in this subject don't overlook Alan Watts.
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi

Simon E.
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Re: In between Taoism and Buddhism

Post by Simon E. » Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:26 am

Taoism may have all sorts of good qualities. Taoism might have parallels with Buddhadharma.
But Taoism is not Buddhadharma.
“The difference between us and Tara is that she knows she doesn’t exist”.

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Grigoris
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Re: In between Taoism and Buddhism

Post by Grigoris » Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:24 am

£$&^@ wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:26 am
Taoism may have all sorts of good qualities. Taoism might have parallels with Buddhadharma.
But Taoism is not Buddhadharma.
I agree that Taoism is not Buddhism, but which elements of it do you believe contradict Buddhadharma?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

PeterC
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Re: In between Taoism and Buddhism

Post by PeterC » Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:37 pm

LoveFromColorado wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:11 pm
Hey all,

Fairly general question here, but can anyone recommend any good resources for someone who is finding themselves moving towards a balance between Buddhism and Taoism? I have a library of good Buddhist material but am a little light on the Taoist side as it is relatively new to me. In reading the Tao Te Ching, I am personally seeing that the two are almost like looking at the same coin from different sides, at least to me.
Unfortunately very little in English. Most translations of the Dao De Jing are pretty bad - translators seem unable to resist imposing their own new age interpretations on the text. Taoism is a very complex and multifaceted topic, but most of what’s written about it in English does not really explain it properly. If I had to choose one - waley’s Three ways of thought in ancient China is a short and pretty good introduction to it and places it in the broader context of philosophical systems.

The differences between the Buddhadharma and Taoist philosophy are profound. No reason not to read about Taoism, but it’s not going to deepen your understanding of the Dharma.

Simon E.
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Re: In between Taoism and Buddhism

Post by Simon E. » Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:44 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:24 am
£$&^@ wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:26 am
Taoism may have all sorts of good qualities. Taoism might have parallels with Buddhadharma.
But Taoism is not Buddhadharma.
I agree that Taoism is not Buddhism, but which elements of it do you believe contradict Buddhadharma?
It's not so much that there are areas of contradiction, its more what Taoism lacks. To whit, a coherent doctrine of Dependent Origination.
“The difference between us and Tara is that she knows she doesn’t exist”.

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: In between Taoism and Buddhism

Post by kalden yungdrung » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:19 pm

LoveFromColorado wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:11 pm
Hey all,

Fairly general question here, but can anyone recommend any good resources for someone who is finding themselves moving towards a balance between Buddhism and Taoism? I have a library of good Buddhist material but am a little light on the Taoist side as it is relatively new to me. In reading the Tao Te Ching, I am personally seeing that the two are almost like looking at the same coin from different sides, at least to me.

I realize that if one were to start to drill down into the literal details (especially on the Buddhist side) then one might object that the two are not compatible. Personally, that style of thought is the hole I have been digging out of since my Protestant upbringing and early years at Seminary. I have no argument with or judgment against it, but that is not the discussion I am looking for here as it would be easy to find in my own head.

Thank you!
Tashi delek,

For me personal , i see similarties between the Wu Chi and Dzogchen Emptiness.

Out of the Nature everything originates , stays and dissolves back into that Emptiness, a very well-known experience within Dzogchen practise
Out of the Wu Chi also everything originates.

Then i see in the Pa Kua / Ba Gua, also many resemblances with Buddhism.

.
Wu chi - 00.jpg
Wu chi - 00.jpg (15.54 KiB) Viewed 682 times
The best meditation is no meditation

LoveFromColorado
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Re: In between Taoism and Buddhism

Post by LoveFromColorado » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:00 pm

Thanks all for the replies! As I mentioned, I completely agree and expect that Taoism would not equal Dharma by definition. That is fairly easy to see from a high level. In some senses, the two philosophies/religions (for lack of a better English term) have many parallels, and, personally, I think you can interpret them as being closer together than they would be from strict philosophical argument although that interpretation is highly subjective to be sure.

That said, there are some fundamental principles (primarily on the Buddhist side of the conversation) that would raise some objections early on (for example, the concept of Dependent Origination as mentioned above). In my Taoist readings, I think there is much less of a strict emphasis on philosophy and one's own experience with Tao is tantamount over philosophical debate. In contrast, philosophical debate is a cornerstone to much of Buddhist thought, so it is logical that there would be objections from a Buddhist perspective. Case in point - in Taoism (from what I understand), the idea of Dependent Origination would be much more vague and only an idea that the world of "being" (i.e. what we experience as life) and "nonbeing" (i.e. Tao) work in tandem. From a Buddhist perspective, this is what the Dalai Lama occasionally discusses as "we can see what we see but, when we investigate, we see that nothing is there" - i.e. the "two truths" kind of discussion. I've read loads on Buddhist thought but am not a scholar so please pardon any lay generalizations here.

In other words, the foundation for Buddhism is built upon a series of logical arguments. For Taoism, the foundation of personal experience with Tao builds the subsequent logical arguments which may not even be necessary.

I am also not trying to persuade anyone towards Taoism or to see the two as teaching the exact same thing. Personally (as a side note), I have come to consider two points in my life (as borne out through personal experience and my own logic/reason) that are increasing my interest in Taoism - specifically, less emphasis on dogma and a greater emphasis on one's own experience over specific teachings. Of course, both of these points come with a loaded set of presuppositions - hence my disclaimer that I'm not trying to persuade anyone. Just offering out my own thoughts and experiences to date after 43 years of life :)

Thanks again, and this is a great conversation for me. Please feel free to continue :)
Last edited by LoveFromColorado on Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: In between Taoism and Buddhism

Post by kalden yungdrung » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:02 pm

IN ADDITION:

Forgot Feng Shu , which was introduced to Tibet by some Chinese princess who were married to a certain Tibetan King.
I have heard that it formed the base for Tibetan Temple constructions.

So we can see that Tibetan Culture was influenced by the Chinese Taoist to some degree.
The best meditation is no meditation

LoveFromColorado
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Re: In between Taoism and Buddhism

Post by LoveFromColorado » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:03 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:02 pm
IN ADDITION:

Forgot Feng Shu , which was introduced to Tibet by some Chinese princess who were married to a certain Tibetan King.
I have heard that it formed the base for Tibetan Temple constructions.

So we can see that Tibetan Culture was influenced by the Chinese Taoist to some degree.
Feng Shui is taught by the Wisdom Academy (at Wisdom Publications) by a Tibetan monk if I am not mistaken. So, yes :)

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: In between Taoism and Buddhism

Post by kalden yungdrung » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:08 pm

LoveFromColorado wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:03 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:02 pm
IN ADDITION:

Forgot Feng Shu , which was introduced to Tibet by some Chinese princess who were married to a certain Tibetan King.
I have heard that it formed the base for Tibetan Temple constructions.

So we can see that Tibetan Culture was influenced by the Chinese Taoist to some degree.
Feng Shui is taught by the Wisdom Academy (at Wisdom Publications) by a Tibetan monk if I am not mistaken. So, yes :)
Many explanations possible, but Feng Shui is of Chinese Origen and once introduced to Tibet, for me by a Chinese princess who was married to one of the first Tibetan Buddhist Dharma Kings.
Possible that a Buddhist Monk did do the job.
The best meditation is no meditation

LoveFromColorado
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Re: In between Taoism and Buddhism

Post by LoveFromColorado » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:08 pm

Kim O'Hara wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:17 am
LoveFromColorado wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:11 pm
... a little light on the Taoist side as it is relatively new to me ...
I like The Inner Chapters, introduced here https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/355 ... r_Chapters although my edition is a different one (it's beautifully produced but I'm not going to recommend it because the commentaries by the translator are a bit simple-minded)
The I Ching is not really Taoist but some knowledge of it will help you a lot in making sense of Taoism. Wilhelm's translation is now very dated but his introduction - https://www.iging.com/intro/introduc.htm - could still be worth reading.

There is a strand of Taoism which parallels Western alchemy, kabbala and ritual magic. I'm not sure you would be interested but if you are, The Secret of the Golden Flower is a reasonable starting point - http://thesecretofthegoldenflower.com/index.html.

:reading:
Kim
Wayfarer wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:52 am
I know he has plenty of critics, but in this subject don't overlook Alan Watts.
Perfect, thank you!!!!

I have read some on Kabbala and alchemy but don't hold to it too much. The only interest I have had is when it overlaps into Tarot, but, when it does, it gets very dogmatic and too heavy-minded for me (The Golden Dawn, Aleister Crowley, etc.). That said, there are some hidden gems everywhere, so I will put it on the to-read list!

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Lobsang Chojor
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Re: In between Taoism and Buddhism

Post by Lobsang Chojor » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:13 pm

LoveFromColorado wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:03 pm
Feng Shui is taught by the Wisdom Academy (at Wisdom Publications) by a Tibetan monk if I am not mistaken. So, yes :)
It's taught at Wisdom by Ven Jampa Ludrup because Lama Zopa Rinpoche likes Feng Shui, in my experience most Tibetans don't take it seriously.
"Morality does not become pure unless darkness is dispelled by the light of wisdom"
  • Aryasura, Paramitasamasa 6.5
ༀ་ཨ་ར་པ་ཙ་ན་དྷཱི༔ Oṃ A Ra Pa Ca Na Dhīḥ

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Kim O'Hara
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Re: In between Taoism and Buddhism

Post by Kim O'Hara » Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:09 am

LoveFromColorado wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:00 pm
... In other words, the foundation for Buddhism is built upon a series of logical arguments. For Taoism, the foundation of personal experience with Tao builds the subsequent logical arguments which may not even be necessary. ...
Any similarities between Taoism and Zen/Chan/Seon in this respect are probably not coincidental.

:smile:
Kim

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