Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

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Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by SunWuKong » Mon May 13, 2019 5:46 am

Dechen Norbu wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 8:04 pm
Perhaps abortion is already way down the line in a sequence of problems caused by the common mindset in our society.
As important as debating its legal framing, is understanding how we got to that situation in the first place. What is it that makes abortion such a common practice these days? The answers may very well be related to this topic as a whole, in my opinion.
I can't respond to this without being told I'm off topic? Really?? So why did you ask this question in the first place?"
Dechen Norbu wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 8:04 pm
"What is it that makes abortion such a common practice these days?"
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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Wayfarer » Mon May 13, 2019 7:37 am

Split from here
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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Mon May 13, 2019 3:16 pm

Many factors support this bad habit. Perhaps the 'common mindset' is craving for pleasure & avoiding suffering. Which is really not unique to our time or place.
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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Dechen Norbu » Mon May 13, 2019 3:17 pm

SunWuKong wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 5:46 am
Dechen Norbu wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 8:04 pm
Perhaps abortion is already way down the line in a sequence of problems caused by the common mindset in our society.
As important as debating its legal framing, is understanding how we got to that situation in the first place. What is it that makes abortion such a common practice these days? The answers may very well be related to this topic as a whole, in my opinion.
I can't respond to this without being told I'm off topic? Really?? So why did you ask this question in the first place?"
Dechen Norbu wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 8:04 pm
"What is it that makes abortion such a common practice these days?"
I'll answer you out of courtesy, but know this is not a subject I'm aiming to discuss much further.

I provided an answer just after the question. I belive a physicallist mindset heightens the probability of abortions being often considered as the most viable way to solve an unwanted pregnancy.

If the prevalent belief within a society is, bluntly put, that "mind (consciousness) is what the brain does", then until a certain point, that till now is unknown so it's more or less arbitrarily determined, it's preferable to kill the fetus than carrying an unwanted pregnancy till the end.

If the preciousness of a human life is not recognized as one of the best opportunities to practice Dharma, because this practice is not believed to be more than superstition or another coping therapy, then the value of a potential human life risks being lessened.

A mindset that rests upon physicallism is also more prone to give way to consumerism, extreme hedonism, savage competition and so on and so forth, none of these conducive to long lasting well being.

Much more could be said, but I'll leave it here.

Of course it's lamentable that certain men abandon women when they become aware that they became pregnant. It's terrible and a very coward thing to do. It's true that many women recur to abortion in these cases, particularly in societies that will make their life harder in many ways if they decide to carry on, having the baby while single.

Still, the solution doesn't seem to pass by forcing men to stay in a relation with a certain woman (by many reasons this is catastrophic). They should be forced by law to provide for the baby and the mother and that's the case in many countries. But BOTH are responsible. Both made it, both need to help raising it. The female is not a passive observer that had it simply happening to her, unless she was raped. She participated, fully knowing that it was her that would get pregnant, not the man. This carries a certain degree of practical responsibility when engaging in sexual relations.

But all these problems are symptoms of deeper issues. It's like having a fever which is a symptom, not the disease. How those issues relate to a certain set of beliefs was the topic of the debate at the other thread.

By the way, since you seem to have ancient greeks in such high regard, they didn't let women vote. Do you know what they also "loved" along with philosophy? Slaves. So, I would be suspicious about bluntly transplanting their solutions for nowadays society.

Best wishes.

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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by SunWuKong » Mon May 13, 2019 3:46 pm

Dechen Norbu - I'm okay with what you're saying here. And my apologies, my numbers were wrong. Its a study done in the USA by National Right to Life and it says 80% of abortions at that time were of single women and that the majority of those were from either/or single status or partner not deemed suitable for fatherhood for a variety of reasons. It does zero in on the males role much more so than the NIH study that begins with the assumption that abortion is "elected" by the female. (also not entirely true in all cases)

I also fully agree that the physicalist mindset - the mindset of being so lost in Samsara that you think that is all there is - is a broad social issue everywhere in the world. (As an American with rather traditional values, I find it appalling that the whole world is enamored with the idea, concept, lifestyle of American Samsara, as though our culture is so superficial that nothing else exists here.) It's like a poison that never stops spreading. Scientific method, however, does not have samsaric thinking as an intrinsic value. What we know keeps changing, every few years. And it will continue to change every more rapidly as technology continues to develop.

Sorry for the intrusion in an otherwise provacative and productive thread.
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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Mon May 13, 2019 4:46 pm

SunWuKong wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 3:46 pm
Scientific method, however, does not have samsaric thinking as an intrinsic value.
Not so - modern scientism deliberately & proudly limits it scope of investigation & methodologies to only what the five technologically enhanced senses can detect.
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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Dechen Norbu » Tue May 14, 2019 12:09 pm

SunWuKong wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 3:46 pm
Dechen Norbu - I'm okay with what you're saying here. And my apologies, my numbers were wrong. Its a study done in the USA by National Right to Life and it says 80% of abortions at that time were of single women and that the majority of those were from either/or single status or partner not deemed suitable for fatherhood for a variety of reasons. It does zero in on the males role much more so than the NIH study that begins with the assumption that abortion is "elected" by the female. (also not entirely true in all cases)
No worries. I'm glad we cleared that up.
I also fully agree that the physicalist mindset - the mindset of being so lost in Samsara that you think that is all there is - is a broad social issue everywhere in the world. (As an American with rather traditional values, I find it appalling that the whole world is enamored with the idea, concept, lifestyle of American Samsara, as though our culture is so superficial that nothing else exists here.) It's like a poison that never stops spreading.
When people believe lasting happiness comes from where it does not and suffering is caused by what doesn't cause it, we have a recipe for disaster.
American Samsara ( :lol: ) is more comfortable than, let's say, Ethiopian Samsara. On top of that people are sold a lie for egoistical reasons. Add both and few other factors and there you have it. At least you've seen through it. I wish everyone had, at least, that insight.
Scientific method, however, does not have samsaric thinking as an intrinsic value. What we know keeps changing, every few years. And it will continue to change every more rapidly as technology continues to develop.
No, in fact the method itself is, in essence, splendid. The problems are mostly related to the paradigm that today underlies most scientific research. If it matters very little in some fields of knowledge, it completely stops others from advancing. Still, we are in much better shape now than we were in the late XIX century, especially in physics and physics-based knowledge. It's acceptable, to a point, to question realism without sounding like a total nut job. Until recently this was mostly philosophical.
Sorry for the intrusion in an otherwise provacative and productive thread.
Well, in the end a few things were clarified and that topic is back on track (while I'm now derailing this one :lol: ).
We're good right? So it turned out well.

Best wishes.

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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Konchog1 » Wed May 15, 2019 4:17 am

For context for the discussion: http://www.numberofabortions.com/
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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by shaunc » Wed May 15, 2019 7:44 am

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 3:16 pm
Many factors support this bad habit. Perhaps the 'common mindset' is craving for pleasure & avoiding suffering. Which is really not unique to our time or place.
That's probably the closest answer to the truth.

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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Simon E. » Wed May 15, 2019 11:20 am

Tell that to 15 year old rape victim or a woman in an abusive relationship.
The life of zygotes and foetuses do not constitute an absolute.
Sometimes it’s about finding the least worst action, leading to the least worst vipaka.
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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Dechen Norbu » Wed May 15, 2019 11:45 am

£$&^@ wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 11:20 am
Tell that to 15 year old rape victim or a woman in an abusive relationship.
The life of zygotes and foetuses do not constitute an absolute.
Sometimes it’s about finding the least worst action, leading to the least worst vipaka.
It became a sort of cliché to use that argument, Simon.
If it was mostly common to endure the pregnancy out of compassion, even if hard, instead of putting our happiness in the first place, maybe even humans generated in such terrible situations would have a chance to live. But society is light years behind such point.
What I disagree is trying to counter the current state of affairs by making abortion illegal. They still happen, I'm not even sure if numbers drop, a black market of death is created and complications are far worse. Not being a woman, not having been raped don't allow me to understand fully how deeply some problems in this case really are. Even if the pregnancy was carried to its end, thus sparing a life, suicide, abuse, infanticide could follow, but I'm not sure if this couldn't be countered with a much different education. But we're light years from that. So, things being as they are, I prefer not to meddle. But the karma of killing a human is one of the worse kinds of karma. Don't suffer a few years now, suffer several lives later. Very complicated business, this one.

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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Simon E. » Wed May 15, 2019 12:48 pm

I was responding to the suggestion that the choice to abort is always due to an individuals wanting an easy life of pleasure Marcos. Many women choose abortion with an anguished mind set, because they see the alternative as worse for themselves and the child. I am not arguing their case. I am just suggesting that in a proportion of cases there is no easy or karma-vipaka fee solution. To reduce the issue to a binary choice is to fail to recognise the circumstances that many women endure.
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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by tkp67 » Wed May 15, 2019 12:57 pm

If this is truly just as an example to display manifestation of karma in society why are there dividing lines between personal views on said matter? Am I wrong in thinking the karma we are subject to because of the collective of mankind is one aspect but the portion we most powerfully effect is our own?

Not to question or invalidate any view I just see a conflation of topic and ancillary attachments around said topic that come up around said topic all of which have individual relevance.

I find myself trying to put other people's differences and try to understand them from a non conflicting point of view to the point of obsession so I can't say this isn't somewhat driven by desire and ego rooted. My apologies in advance if they are not perceived as be properly tempered with compassion and as always I ask for correction or comments in this regard.

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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Dechen Norbu » Wed May 15, 2019 1:25 pm

£$&^@ wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 12:48 pm
I was responding to the suggestion that the choice to abort is always due to an individuals wanting an easy life of pleasure Marcos. Many women choose abortion with an anguished mind set, because they see the alternative as worse for themselves and the child. I am not arguing their case. I am just suggesting that in a proportion of cases there is no easy or karma-vipaka fee solution. To reduce the issue to a binary choice is to fail to recognise the circumstances that many women endure.
Agree Simon. :anjali:
I got a little scared by the numbers in Sweden, where 60% of the reasons presented to abort were postponing pregnancy. I find this scary, particularly when much of the world is enfatuated with the Nordic example. If their liberalism has very positive facets, it also has terrible pitfalls.
This points a little to what NW said.

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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Tlalok » Wed May 15, 2019 2:29 pm

£$&^@ wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 12:48 pm
I was responding to the suggestion that the choice to abort is always due to an individuals wanting an easy life of pleasure Marcos. Many women choose abortion with an anguished mind set, because they see the alternative as worse for themselves and the child. I am not arguing their case. I am just suggesting that in a proportion of cases there is no easy or karma-vipaka fee solution. To reduce the issue to a binary choice is to fail to recognise the circumstances that many women endure.
Good posting.

What is worrying for me in these current heartbeat bills and abortion bans in the states is that this is combined with a drive to promote abstinence only education, which does nothing to prevent the number of abortions performed. There's also a drive against birth control in all its forms (Alabama's recent bill would effectively ban most common forms of birth control as well). This prevents women from taking the "practical responsibilities" necessary to avoid becoming pregnant.

Its also telling that abortion rates are higher in countries without access to safe, legal abortion, and mortality rates are obviously much higher.

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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Dechen Norbu » Wed May 15, 2019 3:04 pm

Insane. Criminalizing abortion plus banning most birth control methods? Are you sure? That's insane.

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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Simon E. » Wed May 15, 2019 3:21 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 1:25 pm
£$&^@ wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 12:48 pm
I was responding to the suggestion that the choice to abort is always due to an individuals wanting an easy life of pleasure Marcos. Many women choose abortion with an anguished mind set, because they see the alternative as worse for themselves and the child. I am not arguing their case. I am just suggesting that in a proportion of cases there is no easy or karma-vipaka fee solution. To reduce the issue to a binary choice is to fail to recognise the circumstances that many women endure.
Agree Simon. :anjali:
I got a little scared by the numbers in Sweden, where 60% of the reasons presented to abort were postponing pregnancy. I find this scary, particularly when much of the world is enfatuated with the Nordic example. If their liberalism has very positive facets, it also has terrible pitfalls.
This points a little to what NW said.
60%? I had no idea. Scary indeed. Abortion as a method of birth control is morally reprehensible.
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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Tlalok » Wed May 15, 2019 3:34 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 3:04 pm
Insane. Criminalizing abortion plus banning most birth control methods? Are you sure? That's insane.
Welcome to the south.

IUDs and the pill are explicitly no longer covered under health insurance in Ohio, which is taking it out of the hands of the people who need it most. IUDs are expensive.

Don't fool yourself and think that they're not coming for this next once they've got Roe overturned.

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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed May 15, 2019 3:59 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 3:04 pm
Insane. Criminalizing abortion plus banning most birth control methods? Are you sure? That's insane.
It’s insane, describes the leanings of most of the Right To Life movement in the US, and explains why the parameters of the entire debate are screwy.
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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Queequeg » Wed May 15, 2019 4:14 pm

I'm guessing its mostly if not all men participating in this discussion.

The US State of Georgia passed a law prohibiting abortion after a heart beat is detectable. I couldn't find the whole segment, but the below youtube vid and then the link get you the whole discussion. Its fairly representative of the kind of discussions we hear about abortion in the US.


https://www.thedailybeast.com/whoopi-go ... n-abortion
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