Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Casual conversation between friends. Anything goes (almost).
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Queequeg
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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Queequeg » Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:48 pm

If women are getting too drunk to consent, men need to pick up their game and get too drunk to f...

Is that inappropriate? Totally.

The only good answer is, everyone needs to bring this pinwheel of samsara to a halt. Dig those heels in and haaaaaalllllllt.

Everything else is compromise. How much compromise is too much?
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Grigoris » Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:54 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:48 pm
Is that inappropriate? Totally.
I prefer the Dead Kennedy's version. The inappropriateness of punk always reminds me of the childhood roots of my inappropriateness as an adult.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Queequeg » Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:56 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:54 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:48 pm
Is that inappropriate? Totally.
I prefer the Dead Kennedy's version. The inappropriateness of punk always reminds me of the childhood roots of my inappropriateness as an adult.
Of course, the original DK version... I was going for the irony with the NV cover.

That is a great way to frame a punk adolescence. I'm stealing that sentiment.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Dechen Norbu » Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:25 pm

Thanks Greg. Nice seeing you, too! ;)

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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by TharpaChodron » Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:36 am

Nemo wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 6:26 pm
Teen pregnancy rates have been dropping since the 1950s. Sexual education is very important as is access to birth control.
In some jurisdictions up to 70% of incarcerated inmates were in foster care at some time in their youth. There is also a huge decrease in crime that correlates with the date of legalized abortion in a state plus 18 years. If you actually want to stop abortion adopt an unwanted kid or get a vasectomy. But mostly this is about telling women what to do so I don't expect those things to happen. Unwanted kids have a strong tendency to become monsters we all have to deal with later. Telling other people what they can do with their bodies is simply making things worse.

The most common cause for abortion is a lack of resources. Kids are frickin expensive in the West. They are a luxury item now. I'm sure I've spent more than a Mercedes S Class and a cottage to boot on mine already.
Pretty good points. In the US right now we have around 500,000 children in foster care. And hardly anyone wants to be a foster parent. If the "State" wants to take all of these unborn and unwanted or neglected children and provide them all sufficient food, shelter and care etc then that would be great, but rather we have kids suffering neglect already that we don't really give a damn about to look after.

The pro-lifers don't really care about children, or else they'd be helping the ones who already exist and suffer needlessly for just being born.

For the record, obviously I'm pro-choice and a woman (for a change on this topic) and I think the government should not dictate what cognizant, sentient females do with/in their bodies in regards to this subject.

Also- Are pro-lifers as concerned about killing animals and eating animal meat? Why shouldn't they all be vegans, respecting life and all. But no, animals are supposedly lesser life forms than humans and don't deserve the "sanctity of life" argument.

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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Grigoris » Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:49 am

TharpaChodron wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:36 am
Also- Are pro-lifers as concerned about killing animals and eating animal meat? Why shouldn't they all be vegans, respecting life and all. But no, animals are supposedly lesser life forms than humans and don't deserve the "sanctity of life" argument.
And let us not even get into how many anti-choice activists support the death penalty...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Dechen Norbu » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:18 am

I'm against abortion in most cases. I can't conceive a Buddhist who favors it.

However, I don't think criminalizing abortion solves anything. It tends to create a black market. Abortion rates don't seem to drop, but the fatalities due to them go up. It also makes the problem harder to address as we can't know precisely the situation.

It's a tough situation with no easy solution.
Usually it's too politically polarized and we end up in all or nothing kind of measures.

According to Tibetan Buddhism, and I think Buddhism in general, conception occurs at fertilization. This is when the energy mind links with the new being. So, like it or not, if we kill it, we killed a human, albeit not fully formed. This can't be taken lightly.

Greg, in his men's blaming message :lol: made very valid points. It would be perfect if it hadn't tipped the scale of responsibility too much. The best we can do to stop abortion is preventing it. The question "how did we get to that situation?" is, in my opinion, at least as important as what to do when an unwanted pregnancy happens.

So, there are a lot of really stupid arguments surrounding this topic. I'll comment two perspectives that are extreme, but common.

Some men think that it should be women to worry about contraception, since it will be them, not men, that will get pregnant. The fact that it is their sperm that does half the job doesn't seem relevant to them. So, all both agreed upon was sex. They never wanted any baby. Men won't get pregnant, the women alone will. So it's her job to avoid it as the deal was just sex. It's a reckless and egoistical attitude.

On the other end of the spectrum, some women think it's solely up to them to decide, since it's their body. The fact that another different being is developing inside their womb doesn't seem relevant, neither does the fact that a man the is father of that being. That only counts later, when it becomes about money, it seems. No, it's not just their body. The moment they get pregnant, they have a passenger inside them. If I take a passenger to a drive in, nourish him with a good meal, I can't throw him out on the freeway because it's my car and I decided not to take him with me. I know this is a gross oversimplification, but from a Buddhist perspective it isn't much different from an abortion.

So then science steps in, but as consciousness can't be directly determined, a more or less arbitrary date is decided in some cases. You can perform an abortion legally up to that date. From then on, it's criminal. The fact is they are just guessing.

There are no excuses to killing human beings. But it will happen. The difference is that one or two can die in the process, the later being more likely to happen when abortion is illegal. Before an abortion takes place, it would always be better to have the woman thinking about giving the baby for adoption instead of killing him. It's more compassionate. Even more compassionate would be taking care of him, but such degree of compassion can't be expected, much less forced upon others.

So yes, it's better to have it legalized, but with some restrictions. If it becomes an imoral form of contraception, the person doing it must be stopped.

As Greg said, the best solution is avoiding unwanted pregnancies. But they'll happen. What follows deppends a lot on the state of our culture.

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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Queequeg » Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:16 pm

Kind of touched on above but not made explicit...

If civilization were reoriented to happiness of the sort embodied in love and kindness, abortion might become the unfortunate aberration I think everyone wishes it would be. So long as we enshrine self interest (regulated to keep it from leading to immediate existential destruction - just a gradual one) we will be making these decisions informed by scarcity induced fear.

How do we enshrine mudita as our organizing principle?

I think we

Just do it.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by TharpaChodron » Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:35 am

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:49 am
TharpaChodron wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:36 am
Also- Are pro-lifers as concerned about killing animals and eating animal meat? Why shouldn't they all be vegans, respecting life and all. But no, animals are supposedly lesser life forms than humans and don't deserve the "sanctity of life" argument.
And let us not even get into how many anti-choice activists support the death penalty...
Oh come on, Greg. As I have heard from many pro-lifers, those evil criminals deserve to die but the unborn are "innocent" and so they don't. It's simple. ;)

Speaking to the comment below yours...No one (that I know of) is "pro-abortion." They're "pro-choice." If someone doesn't believe in abortion, then simply don't have one. But don't tell capable to make decisions humans what to do with their bodies if they have made a conscious decision that deeply impacts their lives.

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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by TharpaChodron » Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:39 am

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:16 pm
Kind of touched on above but not made explicit...

If civilization were reoriented to happiness of the sort embodied in love and kindness, abortion might become the unfortunate aberration I think everyone wishes it would be. So long as we enshrine self interest (regulated to keep it from leading to immediate existential destruction - just a gradual one) we will be making these decisions informed by scarcity induced fear.

How do we enshrine mudita as our organizing principle?

I think we

Just do it.
Just being dramatic, but really, if men could get pregnant, I bet on my life then abortion would totally be legal. And paid for by insurance. Like viagra.

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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Queequeg » Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:13 am

TharpaChodron wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:39 am
Queequeg wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:16 pm
Kind of touched on above but not made explicit...

If civilization were reoriented to happiness of the sort embodied in love and kindness, abortion might become the unfortunate aberration I think everyone wishes it would be. So long as we enshrine self interest (regulated to keep it from leading to immediate existential destruction - just a gradual one) we will be making these decisions informed by scarcity induced fear.

How do we enshrine mudita as our organizing principle?

I think we

Just do it.
Just being dramatic, but really, if men could get pregnant, I bet on my life then abortion would totally be legal. And paid for by insurance. Like viagra.
You are being dramatic. I've heard it before, seen it on facebook, etc. etc. I don't think the line is that effective as a rhetorical device. To suggest that there is a moral equivalency between a pill to get it up and abortion is nothing more than an applause line at a NARAL convention. You won't win anyone over in a debate with that.

What I'm suggesting is that if we had a better world, the one that I think most of us wants, the calculation that goes into the decision of whether to abort or not would be entirely different.

Implicit in my remark is that abortion should be available. You can't consider abortion as an option if its not available or if it is surrounded by obstacles, like accessibility and cost. I'm pro-choice. I'm pro make your own decisions and live with the consequences.

We don't live there in a world where people make good well informed decisions all the time, we have this shit, where poor decision making is endemic for hosts of reasons, starting long before someone has to consider an abortion.

But taking up the logic of that line, riddle this... women outnumber men in the United States. If abortion were an issue that broke on sex lines, women should win that vote.

It doesn't break that way because its not just a women's issue, I suspect. Its bigger than that. Or maybe smaller than that. Maybe a small group feels very strongly about it and gets their vote out, while other people just don't care enough to bother voting.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by justsit » Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:46 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:13 am
But taking up the logic of that line, riddle this... women outnumber men in the United States. If abortion were an issue that broke on sex lines, women should win that vote.

It doesn't break that way because its not just a women's issue, I suspect. Its bigger than that. Or maybe smaller than that. Maybe a small group feels very strongly about it and gets their vote out, while other people just don't care enough to bother voting.
In the US it's also a religious issue, and Christians of most denominations are very vocal in their opposition. The "Pro-Life" movement has an established network through the churches and is very well organized, and the support comes from across the Christian spectrum, from evangelicals to old-school Catholics. It's much more difficult to mobilize the various pro-choice groups.

The process is similar to the gun control issue - it's easy to defeat gun control measures because the NRA has an extensive communication network that very effectively rallies the troops. Every time my state tries to introduce even the most innocuous gun legislation, the state house is inundated with opposition from angry constituents who get lots of media coverage of their boisterous rallies. Works every time.

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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Queequeg » Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:05 pm

Exactly. Which is why the viagra=abortion line does not advance the agenda.

Interesting article in the Atlantic recently asking why America is so angry and what could be done about it. Long article worth a read but I thought this part might be relevant:

Tl;Dr, agree with the opponent to the full extent of their logic.
the plan, on the face of it, seemed crazy. A group of Israeli social scientists wanted to conduct an experiment disguised as an advertising campaign. The ads would run in a small, conservative Tel Aviv suburb, where many people were religious and supported right-wing politicians. The goal was to persuade the residents to abandon their anger toward Palestinians and agree that Israel should freeze construction of Jewish settlements in Gaza and the West Bank, among other concessions.

The suburb they were hoping to convert, Giv’at Shmuel, was known for being strenuously opposed to anything associated with peaceniks, liberals, or anyone who said anything good about peaceniks or liberals. A few years earlier, residents had stood along a highway to throw rocks at passing cars simply because they suspected that the drivers might be headed to a gay-pride march.

The proposed experiment ran counter to most of psychology’s conventional teachings. The best-known theory regarding how to reduce conflict and prejudice within a population was known as the “contact hypothesis”: If you can just get everyone who hates each other to talk in a controlled, respectful manner, this doctrine holds, they’ll eventually start speaking civilly. They won’t like each other. But prejudices may fade, and moral outrages will mellow.

The researchers figured that the contact hypothesis had clearly been developed by someone who had never visited Israel. Polls in Giv’at Shmuel were very clear. The residents didn’t want to spend time with Palestinians. They also didn’t want a bunch of academics lecturing them on how to become more open-minded. So the researchers came up with a clever idea. Don’t tell everyone in Giv’at Shmuel that they’re wrong. Tell them that they’re right: A perpetual war with Israel’s neighbors made a lot of sense. If anything, the people of Giv’at Shmuel ought to be angrier.

With the help of an advertising agency, the social scientists created online ads celebrating the tension between Israelis and Palestinians, and extolling the virtues of fighting for fighting’s sake. One ad showed iconic photos of Israeli war heroes and proclaimed, “Without [war] we wouldn’t have had heroes. For the heroes, we probably need the conflict.” The ad was scored with Wagner’s “Flight of the Valkyries.” Another ad featured footage of a soldier with a machine gun petting a kitten and an infantryman helping an old man cross the street. “What a Wonderful World” played in the background. Its tagline read, “Without [war] we would never be moral. For morality, we probably need the conflict.” The ads, along with brochures and billboards, began appearing in Giv’at Shmuel in 2015. Over a six-week period, according to polling, nearly all of its 25,000 residents saw them.

Three days after the experiment started, the so-called Lone Wolf Intifada began, a wave of violent assaults across Israel that the researchers figured would make the people of Giv’at Shmuel even more polarized. And yet, when the researchers conducted polls in the suburb at the end of the advertising campaign, the residents who had held the most extreme views at the outset of the experiment appeared to have softened. The percentage of right-leaning residents who said that Arabs were solely responsible for Israel’s past wars decreased by 23 percent. The number of conservatives who said Israel should be more aggressive toward Palestinians fell by 17 percent. Incredibly, even though the advertisements never mentioned settlements, 78 percent more people said that Israel should consider freezing construction in the West Bank and Gaza. (Residents in nearby towns who hadn’t seen the ads were surveyed as a control; they showed no such evolution in their views over the same period.)

A year after the ads had ceased, by which time some residents had trouble recalling the specifics of the campaign, polls still showed greater tolerance. The campaign wasn’t a panacea, but it is among the most successful conflict interventions in contemporary social science.

The campaign worked, the social scientists believe, because instead of telling people they were wrong, the ads agreed with them—to embarrassing, offensive extremes. “No one wants to think of themselves as some angry crank,” one of the researchers, Eran Halperin, told me. “No one wants to be lumped in with extremists or the angriest fringe.” Sometimes, however, we don’t realize we’ve become extremists until someone makes it painfully obvious.
Pro life? Then let's work on abolishing the death penalty together, caring for people, making the loving society we all want. Let's do it.

I worked on an anti death penalty group back in school. A conservative group on campus proposed working together. Some in our committee rejected that because the group was also pro life.

I never could really grok that. That was back in the 90s. The demand for puritanism in advocacy seems only to have gotten worse.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by justsit » Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:39 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:05 pm
Pro life? Then let's work on abolishing the death penalty together, caring for people, making the loving society we all want. Let's do it.
There is a non-partisan non-denominational group called Pacem in Terris (Peace on Earth) that does just that. It promotes a "consistent life ethic" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consistent_life_ethic, based on the so-called "seamless garment" approach, a reference to the robe Christ wore in the Bible.

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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Queequeg » Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:51 pm

justsit wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:39 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:05 pm
Pro life? Then let's work on abolishing the death penalty together, caring for people, making the loving society we all want. Let's do it.
There is a non-partisan non-denominational group called Pacem in Terris (Peace on Earth) that does just that. It promotes a "consistent life ethic" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consistent_life_ethic, based on the so-called "seamless garment" approach, a reference to the robe Christ wore in the Bible.
That sounds like the philosophy of the group who wanted to work with us. That's bringing the pro-life logic all the way around.

I wonder if, though, they can abide keeping abortion available. I can agree with their ideals, but pragmatism is critical, too.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Daizan » Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:55 pm

As I read through the comments in this topic, I must confess amazement. Abortion may be a convenient solution to a life-changing problem but it cannot be worth the karmic consequences of condoning killing, killing a sentient being yourself, and asking doctors to kill a sentient being. Human birth and the chance it offers to escape the wheel of life and death is precious. It makes no sense for a Buddhist to be pro-choice.

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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:09 pm

Daizan wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:55 pm
As I read through the comments in this topic, I must confess amazement. Abortion may be a convenient solution to a life-changing problem but it cannot be worth the karmic consequences of condoning killing, killing a sentient being yourself, and asking doctors to kill a sentient being. Human birth and the chance it offers to escape the wheel of life and death is precious. It makes no sense for a Buddhist to be pro-choice.

You skipped over the part of the debate where abortion being illegal does not actually prevent abortion, but simply makes it more dangerous.

So if you say "it makes no sense", please qualify it with something other than finger-wagging or vague moral outrage, there is basically no content to your post other than this.
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Queequeg » Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:17 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:09 pm
Daizan wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:55 pm
As I read through the comments in this topic, I must confess amazement. Abortion may be a convenient solution to a life-changing problem but it cannot be worth the karmic consequences of condoning killing, killing a sentient being yourself, and asking doctors to kill a sentient being. Human birth and the chance it offers to escape the wheel of life and death is precious. It makes no sense for a Buddhist to be pro-choice.

You skipped over the part of the debate where abortion being illegal does not actually prevent abortion, but simply makes it more dangerous.

So if you say "it makes no sense", please qualify it with something other than finger-wagging or vague moral outrage, there is basically no content to your post other than this.
Its the Finger-Wagging Precept. "I shall not stop wagging my finger until all beings have been shamed."

Probably should not be dropping humor in this thread. Shame on me.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Grigoris » Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:26 pm

Daizan wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:55 pm
As I read through the comments in this topic, I must confess amazement. Abortion may be a convenient solution to a life-changing problem
Convenient???
...but it cannot be worth the karmic consequences of condoning killing, killing a sentient being yourself, and asking doctors to kill a sentient being.
I am sure you do all sorts of shit in your life that is not worth the karmic consequences of doing, and yet...
Human birth and the chance it offers to escape the wheel of life and death is precious.
Not all human life is precious, according to the teachings. A precious human birth is a specific type of human birth. Actually I think you will find that most humans use their lives to generate demerit and the causes of suffering.
It makes no sense for a Buddhist to be pro-choice.
You are right of course. Mahayana Buddhism is all about locking people into predetermined patterns of behaviour, regardless of the consequences of the behaviour. It is all about blind adherence to rules, correct?

Let us also consider another fact: the life span of a sentient being is a consequence of their actions in past lives, yet it never occurs to us that some (seemingly innocent) sentient beings are aborted, slaughtered for food, murdered, killed in warfare etc... as a consequence of their previous karma.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Abortion (as an example of problems caused by the common mindset in our society)

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:28 pm

From my perspective it's difficult for a Buddhist to really align themselves with either the pro choice or pro life movements. There are fundamental, serious errors in thinking and action on both sides of this debate. I think this is true of most current political parties and movements as well, though perhaps to a lesser degree than this debate.

However, I think that ultimately putting one's political support behind pro-life forces is the worse choice, because the pro life movement has an agenda (the political machinery, not everyone involved) that really has zilch to do with "preserving life", and has more to do with limiting women's autonomy, especially poor women.

While I regret abortions being performed and certainly consider abortion a taking of life, the fact is that (I have been close enough to see how the average clinic operates, btw) organizations like Planned Parenthood often do a great deal to prevent abortions as well, a clinic that is well run is by their very nature preventing them by offering the services they do, particularly by offering them to low income people.

That said, there is the seed of a real danger of the "functionalist" perspective on abortion and euthanasia that you sometimes see in liberal groups, the idea that it's "simply a woman's body", or that ethically harmful choices are actually ethical is also not in keeping with Buddhist ethics at all.
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

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