Marxism and Buddhism

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AkashicBrother
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Re: Marxism and Buddhism

Post by AkashicBrother » Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:16 am

the ideas of jaques fresco could be a good possibility for the humanity future. capitalism is far from the ideal , but marxism also has its problems.

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Aemilius
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Re: Marxism and Buddhism

Post by Aemilius » Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:40 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:25 pm
Aemilius wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:21 pm
Animals too accept property, i.e. that certain things belong to certain animals and not to some other animals.
Just in case you didn't know: according to Buddhism animals rank pretty highly on the ignorance scale, so citing their behavior just doesn't cut it.

You can see ignorance in different shades of meaning. Is president Trump ignorant because he clings to his vast possessions? From the Buddhist point of view this would be ignorance, would it not?

I had in mind the Aggañña Sutta, which describes the arising of ownership at the beginning of the kalpa, and the arising of the human society. We should add that it applies also to the arising kingdom. I also had in mind Madhyamaka which repeatedly says that there is no I or mine.

Alex Wayman has written in his essays about the process of degeneration (or development if you like) that occurs at the beginning of the kalpa. He makes the point that the life of a monk/bhikshu imitates the life of devas before the degeneration (or falling) into a human society occurred.
Ignorance can, and should, also be seen as the a cause of evolution, (this is a point Ken Wilber has made).
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)

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Grigoris
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Re: Marxism and Buddhism

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:17 am

Aemilius wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:40 am
You can see ignorance in different shades of meaning. Is president Trump ignorant because he clings to his vast possessions?
Yes.
I had in mind the Aggañña Sutta, which describes the arising of ownership at the beginning of the kalpa, and the arising of the human society. We should add that it applies also to the arising kingdom.
Seems you have completely misunderstood the point of the Sutta in question, it is summed up in this statement by the Buddha:
‘Now since both dark and bright qualities, which are blamed and praised by the wise, are scattered indiscriminately among the four castes, the wise do not recognise the claim about the Brahmin caste being the highest. Why is that? Because, Vasettha, anyone from the four castes who becomes a monk, an Arahant who has destroyed the corruptions, who has lived the life, done what had to be done, laid down the burden,819 reached the highest goal, destroyed the fetter of becoming, and become emancipated through super-knowledge — he is proclaimed supreme by virtue of Dhamma and not of non-Dhamma.

Dhamma’s the best thing for people

In this life and the next as well.
I also had in mind Madhyamaka which repeatedly says that there is no I or mine.
Now you have completely lost me. A second ago you were saying that private ownership is a positive notion, since even animals do it ,and now it seems you are arguing that private ownership is not a positive notion, since their is no "I" anyway...

What is you point???
Alex Wayman has written in his essays about the process of degeneration (or development if you like) that occurs at the beginning of the kalpa. He makes the point that the life of a monk/bhikshu imitates the life of devas before the degeneration (or falling) into a human society occurred.
Your point being?
Ignorance can, and should, also be seen as the a cause of evolution, (this is a point Ken Wilber has made).
Not in Buddhism. Maybe in Ken Wilber's la-la-land this may be the case, but here on planet earth the Buddha taught the end of ignorance as the means of liberation.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Aemilius
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Re: Marxism and Buddhism

Post by Aemilius » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:44 pm

There is a lot of material in Agganna sutta or the Buddhist Genesis as Alex Wayman calls it. He says it is found in the three branches of scriptures, i.e. in sutra, vinaya, and abhidharma. A sanskrit version of it is in the Mahavastu. Wayman's essay is named Buddhist Genesis and the Tantric Tradition, it is included in his book Buddhist Tantras, Light on indo-tibetan esotericism, the essay has also appeared as a separate article.

Ignorance is the cause of the wheel of becoming (bhavachakra), which is equal to saying that ignorance is the cause of evolution or appearance of species on planet earth.

Ignorance should be seen in a more positive light, is the meaning here. Ignorance equals the Mahashunyata, or Great emptiness, (in Alex Wayman's Arcane Lore). Perfection Wisdom sees it differently.
Last edited by Aemilius on Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)

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Grigoris
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Re: Marxism and Buddhism

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:50 pm

Aemilius wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:44 pm
There is a lot of material in Agganna sutta or the Buddhist Genesis as Alex Wayman calls it. He says it is found in the three branches of scriptures, i.e. in sutra, vinaya, and abhidharma. A sanskrit version of it is in the Mahavastu. Wayman's essay is named Buddhist Genesis and the Tantric Tradition, it is included in his book Buddhist Tantras, Light on indo-tibetan esotericism, the essay has also appeared as a separate article.
Still does not make it relevant to this discussion.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Aemilius
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Re: Marxism and Buddhism

Post by Aemilius » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:45 pm

Here is a sutra about no ownership http://www.buddhasutra.com/files/attadanda_sutta.htm

Mahavastu Chapter xxxii; Genesis of the world; which has a description of the arising of property,
and so on..https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book ... 40595.html
The four castes exist in relation to wealth, in relation to the property, that there is or that comes to be in a human society.
The functions of the four castes are related to the property and wealth of a society.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)

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Grigoris
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Re: Marxism and Buddhism

Post by Grigoris » Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:44 am

stalin.jpeg
stalin.jpeg (87.33 KiB) Viewed 369 times
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Queequeg
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Re: Marxism and Buddhism

Post by Queequeg » Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:29 pm

AkashicBrother wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:16 am
the ideas of jaques fresco could be a good possibility for the humanity future. capitalism is far from the ideal , but marxism also has its problems.
Basically, the problem is people.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Nemo
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Re: Marxism and Buddhism

Post by Nemo » Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:45 pm

Image

humble.student
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Re: Marxism and Buddhism

Post by humble.student » Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:54 am

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:29 pm
Basically, the problem is people.
Well, as Stalin, pictured above (and in case you were wondering why Soviet levels of incarceration were so low), allegedly said:

"Death solves all problems — No man, no problem."

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cyril
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Re: Marxism and Buddhism

Post by cyril » Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:35 am

humble.student wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:54 am
Queequeg wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:29 pm
Basically, the problem is people.
Well, as Stalin, pictured above (and in case you were wondering why Soviet levels of incarceration were so low), allegedly said:

"Death solves all problems — No man, no problem."
That quote is actually from a novel written by Anatoly Rybakov in the late 80s, Children of Arbat. Apparently, the author later admitted he had no historical source for that.
Stalin actually said: "Comrades, never look down on Wikiquote when getting your facts on who said what!"

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin
"You have to make the good out of the bad because that is all you have got to make it out of."
- Robert Penn Warren -

humble.student
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Re: Marxism and Buddhism

Post by humble.student » Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:41 am

cyril wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:35 am
humble.student wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:54 am
Queequeg wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:29 pm
Basically, the problem is people.
Well, as Stalin, pictured above (and in case you were wondering why Soviet levels of incarceration were so low), allegedly said:

"Death solves all problems — No man, no problem."
That quote is actually from a novel written by Anatoly Rybakov in the late 80s, Children of Arbat. Apparently, the author later admitted he had no historical source for that.
Stalin actually said: "Comrades, never look down on Wikiquote when getting your facts on who said what!"

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin
Yes, hence the "allegedly."

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Nemo
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Re: Marxism and Buddhism

Post by Nemo » Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:02 pm

Bakunin nailed the entire 20th century IMO with, “Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice; socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality”

I don't know anyone I would trust with power who wants anything to do with communism and some are rabid Marxists. Capitalism will kill us if we don't invent a better system.

The commies set socialism back 100 years. https://www.truthdig.com/articles/the-d ... mir-lenin/

Sādhaka
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Re: Marxism and Buddhism

Post by Sādhaka » Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:30 am

Nemo,

I think that in this^ particular context, you might be right:

viewtopic.php?f=89&t=31243#p497853
The Bodhicittasopashika & The bsgrags pa skor gsum

/forum

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