Marxism and Buddhism

[AkashicBrother]

the ideas of jaques fresco could be a good possibility for the humanity future. capitalism is far from the ideal , but marxism also has its problems.

[Aemilius]

Animals too accept property, i.e. that certain things belong to certain animals and not to some other animals.

Just in case you didn't know: according to Buddhism animals rank pretty highly on the ignorance scale, so citing their behavior just doesn't cut it.

You can see ignorance in different shades of meaning. Is president Trump ignorant because he clings to his vast possessions? From the Buddhist point of view this would be ignorance, would it not?

I had in mind the Aggañña Sutta, which describes the arising of ownership at the beginning of the kalpa, and the arising of the human society. We should add that it applies also to the arising kingdom. I also had in mind Madhyamaka which repeatedly says that there is no I or mine.

Alex Wayman has written in his essays about the process of degeneration (or development if you like) that occurs at the beginning of the kalpa. He makes the point that the life of a monk/bhikshu imitates the life of devas before the degeneration (or falling) into a human society occurred.
Ignorance can, and should, also be seen as the a cause of evolution, (this is a point Ken Wilber has made).

[Grigoris]

You can see ignorance in different shades of meaning. Is president Trump ignorant because he clings to his vast possessions?

Yes.

I had in mind the Aggañña Sutta, which describes the arising of ownership at the beginning of the kalpa, and the arising of the human society. We should add that it applies also to the arising kingdom.

Seems you have completely misunderstood the point of the Sutta in question, it is summed up in this statement by the Buddha:

‘Now since both dark and bright qualities, which are blamed and praised by the wise, are scattered indiscriminately among the four castes, the wise do not recognise the claim about the Brahmin caste being the highest. Why is that? Because, Vasettha, anyone from the four castes who becomes a monk, an Arahant who has destroyed the corruptions, who has lived the life, done what had to be done, laid down the burden,819 reached the highest goal, destroyed the fetter of becoming, and become emancipated through super-knowledge — he is proclaimed supreme by virtue of Dhamma and not of non-Dhamma.

Dhamma’s the best thing for people

In this life and the next as well.

I also had in mind Madhyamaka which repeatedly says that there is no I or mine.

Now you have completely lost me. A second ago you were saying that private ownership is a positive notion, since even animals do it ,and now it seems you are arguing that private ownership is not a positive notion, since their is no "I" anyway...

What is you point???

Alex Wayman has written in his essays about the process of degeneration (or development if you like) that occurs at the beginning of the kalpa. He makes the point that the life of a monk/bhikshu imitates the life of devas before the degeneration (or falling) into a human society occurred.

Your point being?

Ignorance can, and should, also be seen as the a cause of evolution, (this is a point Ken Wilber has made).

Not in Buddhism. Maybe in Ken Wilber's la-la-land this may be the case, but here on planet earth the Buddha taught the end of ignorance as the means of liberation.

[Aemilius]

There is a lot of material in Agganna sutta or the Buddhist Genesis as Alex Wayman calls it. He says it is found in the three branches of scriptures, i.e. in sutra, vinaya, and abhidharma. A sanskrit version of it is in the Mahavastu. Wayman's essay is named Buddhist Genesis and the Tantric Tradition, it is included in his book Buddhist Tantras, Light on indo-tibetan esotericism, the essay has also appeared as a separate article.

Ignorance is the cause of the wheel of becoming (bhavachakra), which is equal to saying that ignorance is the cause of evolution or appearance of species on planet earth.

Ignorance should be seen in a more positive light, is the meaning here. Ignorance equals the Mahashunyata, or Great emptiness, (in Alex Wayman's Arcane Lore). Perfection Wisdom sees it differently.

[Grigoris]

There is a lot of material in Agganna sutta or the Buddhist Genesis as Alex Wayman calls it. He says it is found in the three branches of scriptures, i.e. in sutra, vinaya, and abhidharma. A sanskrit version of it is in the Mahavastu. Wayman's essay is named Buddhist Genesis and the Tantric Tradition, it is included in his book Buddhist Tantras, Light on indo-tibetan esotericism, the essay has also appeared as a separate article.

Still does not make it relevant to this discussion.

[Aemilius]

Here is a sutra about no ownership http://www.buddhasutra.com/files/attadanda_sutta.htm

Mahavastu Chapter xxxii; Genesis of the world; which has a description of the arising of property,
and so on..https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book ... 40595.html
The four castes exist in relation to wealth, in relation to the property, that there is or that comes to be in a human society.
The functions of the four castes are related to the property and wealth of a society.

[Grigoris]

stalin.jpeg (87.33 KiB) Viewed 1409 times

[Queequeg]

the ideas of jaques fresco could be a good possibility for the humanity future. capitalism is far from the ideal , but marxism also has its problems.

Basically, the problem is people.

[Nemo]

[humble.student]

Basically, the problem is people.

Well, as Stalin, pictured above (and in case you were wondering why Soviet levels of incarceration were so low), allegedly said:

"Death solves all problems — No man, no problem."

[cyril]

Basically, the problem is people.

Well, as Stalin, pictured above (and in case you were wondering why Soviet levels of incarceration were so low), allegedly said:

"Death solves all problems — No man, no problem."

That quote is actually from a novel written by Anatoly Rybakov in the late 80s, Children of Arbat. Apparently, the author later admitted he had no historical source for that.
Stalin actually said: "Comrades, never look down on Wikiquote when getting your facts on who said what!"

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin

[humble.student]

Basically, the problem is people.

Well, as Stalin, pictured above (and in case you were wondering why Soviet levels of incarceration were so low), allegedly said:

"Death solves all problems — No man, no problem."

That quote is actually from a novel written by Anatoly Rybakov in the late 80s, Children of Arbat. Apparently, the author later admitted he had no historical source for that.
Stalin actually said: "Comrades, never look down on Wikiquote when getting your facts on who said what!"

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin

Yes, hence the "allegedly."

[Nemo]

Bakunin nailed the entire 20th century IMO with, “Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice; socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality”

I don't know anyone I would trust with power who wants anything to do with communism and some are rabid Marxists. Capitalism will kill us if we don't invent a better system.

The commies set socialism back 100 years. https://www.truthdig.com/articles/the-d ... mir-lenin/

[Sādhaka]

Nemo,

I think that in this^ particular context, you might be right:

viewtopic.php?f=89&t=31243#p497853