Scientific Evidence of Higher Realms?

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Bodhisattva509
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Scientific Evidence of Higher Realms?

Post by Bodhisattva509 »

Is there scientific evidence of higher realms, above our plane of physical existence? For example, while there doesn't seem to be half-humanoid, half-reptilian creatures on this planet, is it scientifically possible that there's a naga realm?
tkp67
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Re: Scientific Evidence of Higher Realms?

Post by tkp67 »

Is it scientifically impossible?

The reason dharma has not been replaced by science is because it works on levels science has yet to understand. This does not mean that these workings are delusional, they are measured by their fruits.
Sādhaka
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Re: Scientific Evidence of Higher Realms?

Post by Sādhaka »

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Bodhisattva509
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Re: Scientific Evidence of Higher Realms?

Post by Bodhisattva509 »

Sādhaka wrote: Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:15 am Oh the reptilians shapeshifter are on tv everyday.
The Buddhist scriptures depict nagas as half-human, half-reptile beings.
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Re: Scientific Evidence of Higher Realms?

Post by Sādhaka »

True.

Although if not mistaken, shapeshifting is in there somewhere too.

Not to go into an tangent about whether there are shape-shifting reptilians or not, I don’t think it ultimately matters. But given what “science” has given vs what
Buddhadharma has shown us; I’ll place my bet on Nagas over the smartphone I’m using (if Nagas were somehow quintessential to Dharma). The two do not need necessarily to be mutually exclusive though.

My comment was kind of tongue-in-cheek. They Live makes some good points I guess.



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seeker242
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Re: Scientific Evidence of Higher Realms?

Post by seeker242 »

There's no scientific evidence of higher realms, not any that would meet today's stringent standards anyway. However, that doesn't mean it's not scientifically possible. Like Carl Sagan said "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." :smile:
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Scientific Evidence of Higher Realms?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Is there scientific evidence of the human realm?
If you answer yes, then what does that really mean?
The six realms have no intrinsic reality to them to begin with,
nothing occurring within the six realms has any inherent existence.
...not even the scientists in the human realm!
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Bodhisattva509
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Re: Scientific Evidence of Higher Realms?

Post by Bodhisattva509 »

I know this question has been addressed in other threads, but how much of Buddhist cosmology are we really required to take literally? Is it like Christianity and Islam, in which one is branded a heretic for doubting or being agnostic about the literal existence of heaven and hell?
Sādhaka
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Re: Scientific Evidence of Higher Realms?

Post by Sādhaka »

Maybe this is only the lounge, but as the Chögyal Rinpoche has said, Dzogchen is for all sentient beings:


viewtopic.php?f=48&t=7449


Now for how to not have the ‘view fall into the conduct’...


https://www.padmasambhava.org/meditatio ... tructions/


Not that that Mejung Tantra has any need of correction. Only for some context...
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Bodhisattva509
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Re: Scientific Evidence of Higher Realms?

Post by Bodhisattva509 »

If all conditioned things are empty of inherent existence and the Dharmakaya is the only true reality, does it ultimately matter if higher realms are literal or not? If I were required to literally believe in something, I'd hope for some sort of evidence in favor of it.
tkp67
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Re: Scientific Evidence of Higher Realms?

Post by tkp67 »

Bodhisattva509 wrote: Sat Aug 31, 2019 4:51 am I know this question has been addressed in other threads, but how much of Buddhist cosmology are we really required to take literally? Is it like Christianity and Islam, in which one is branded a heretic for doubting or being agnostic about the literal existence of heaven and hell?
You don't have to accept what isn't palatable. I don't believe the community is actively testing adherents.

However true realization/actualization through some facets of practice may require ABSOLUTE belief without any compromise of doubt.
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Re: Scientific Evidence of Higher Realms?

Post by Bodhisattva509 »

tkp67 wrote: Sat Aug 31, 2019 5:13 am However true realization/actualization through some facets of practice may require ABSOLUTE belief without any compromise of doubt.
Would that be absolute belief confirmed by personal experience?
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Re: Scientific Evidence of Higher Realms?

Post by tkp67 »

Bodhisattva509 wrote: Sat Aug 31, 2019 5:25 am
tkp67 wrote: Sat Aug 31, 2019 5:13 am However true realization/actualization through some facets of practice may require ABSOLUTE belief without any compromise of doubt.
Would that be absolute belief confirmed by personal experience?
It becomes tradition and aspect specific. There is framework for determine truth and self experience is lacking. I have to see if I can find the reference for the last statement.
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Re: Scientific Evidence of Higher Realms?

Post by Bodhisattva509 »

Is there really no scientific evidence in favor of higher realms? I'd really like it if there were.
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Re: Scientific Evidence of Higher Realms?

Post by Caoimhghín »

Bodhisattva509 wrote: Sat Aug 31, 2019 5:47 am Is there really no scientific evidence in favor of higher realms? I'd really like it if there were.
The only testimony we can have of higher realms is of the same nature as testimony of observing the saṁksārā (activities) unfold in deep meditation: namely, the accounts of yogis and dhyānin in deep equipoise. It is anecdotal by nature. Some people claim that the unobstructed divine eye can see Sumeru, a quasi-geocentric cosmos unfolding, or even Viṣṇu, in yogic equipoise. All these claims have to be evaluated just like any other claim.

It reminds me of Ven Sujāto on SuttaCentral, who, in one of the threads on transmigration there, when pushed and pushed for substantiation, simply said that it is possible to observe the saṁksārā directly and that this leads to the direct observation of transmigration. He did not confirm that this was his own observation/experience, which would possibly be improper on a web forum.

The mind is a sense that can be honed and, like vision can be aided by technology, the honing of the mind can be aided through the threefold training in ethics, wisdom, and concentration. Supposedly, at profound stages of realization, the mind can do/observe all sorts of things. Until we all get there, we have the anecdotes of those who have said they have experienced these things, and even then, we have to consider that their words might not mean what we think they mean.
savi saghara aṇica di, savi saghara dukha di, savi dhama aṇatva di:
yada paśadi cakhkṣuma tada nivinadi dukha eṣo mago viśodhia.

"All formations are inconstant," he said.
"All formations are stressful," he said.
"All phenomena are selfless," he said.
When one sees this, one becomes adverse to stress, and this is the path of purity.

(Gāndhārī Dharmapada fragments)
tkp67
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Re: Scientific Evidence of Higher Realms?

Post by tkp67 »

There are behavioral aspects that represent people whose being conforms to the influence of a particular realm. The lower realms represent realms we default to by instinct that is why they are already conceptually accessible and accepted at face value. Humans according to higher realms aren't reacting to the same stimulus that those in lower realms are, they are acting according to the realm they currently dwell in.
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Re: Scientific Evidence of Higher Realms?

Post by Caoimhghín »

tkp67 wrote: Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:53 pm There are behavioral aspects that represent people whose being conforms to the influence of a particular realm. The lower realms represent realms we default to by instinct that is why they are already conceptually accessible and accepted at face value. Humans according to higher realms aren't reacting to the same stimulus that those in lower realms are, they are acting according to the realm they currently dwell in.
This is a good example of polyvalence in Buddhist teachings. The three thousand realms in the one mind is the tenfold dharmadhātu, the six destinies and the four fruitions, and the mind of the living being at any moment. Contrast this with between living beings or between lives, whichever terminology one wants to use.
savi saghara aṇica di, savi saghara dukha di, savi dhama aṇatva di:
yada paśadi cakhkṣuma tada nivinadi dukha eṣo mago viśodhia.

"All formations are inconstant," he said.
"All formations are stressful," he said.
"All phenomena are selfless," he said.
When one sees this, one becomes adverse to stress, and this is the path of purity.

(Gāndhārī Dharmapada fragments)
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Scientific Evidence of Higher Realms?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Bodhisattva509 wrote: Sat Aug 31, 2019 4:51 am I know this question has been addressed in other threads, but how much of Buddhist cosmology are we really required to take literally? Is it like Christianity and Islam, in which one is branded a heretic for doubting or being agnostic about the literal existence of heaven and hell?

"Literally" is an interesting concept.
What you can verify from your own observations you can take literally.
Also, a lot of Buddha's teachings are given as specific answers to specific questions asked within a certain context.

There is actually a description of four criteria used to determine whether a teaching is literal or provisional.
I can't remember what they are.
There is a YouTube video where Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche discusses what he refers to as the Buddha's "Cinderella" teachings,
meaning that they are not to be taken literally.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Scientific Evidence of Higher Realms?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Bodhisattva509 wrote: Sat Aug 31, 2019 5:47 am Is there really no scientific evidence in favor of higher realms? I'd really like it if there were.
People always want to know, "are these things real"...
"real" meaning, "you know, real, like the way you and I and trees and rocks are real"
but, see, from the buddhist way of reckoning, that's a false premise.
All realms, including this one, are projections of mind.
This is determined by breaking down the components of our "reality" into finer and finer, more discreet components.

Science can "objectively" determine the moon, its size, location, etc.
But the moon has no intrinsic, self-existence.
There is no innate "moon-ness" about it. It's made of minerals made of atoms, etc.
It is slowly changing. It isn't what it was a minute ago, nor what it will be a minute from now.
Ultimately, we can only say that the moon occurs, just as an explosion, or a dog barking occurs
except, of course, much slower in comparison.
Likewise, beings are constantly taking rebirth in the present moment, for no other time exists.

The famous image of Yama holding up a disc showing the six realms, like a dart board, is somewhat misleading, I think.
In common understanding, referring to six separate realms is very convenient
but, where does one end and the next one begin?
You can experience all of the realms in one day for yourself.
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tkp67
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Re: Scientific Evidence of Higher Realms?

Post by tkp67 »

One of the challenges is overcoming the latent desire to actualize reality through direct physical presence of material form.

Take fear for example. It has no physical tangibility yet it is part of our being. Yet even without a direct physical form it works through our senses and evokes reaction. We don't deny fear as a fabric of our reality.
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