Climate Change and Climate Skeptics/Deniers

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tatpurusa
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Climate Change and Climate Skeptics/Deniers

Post by tatpurusa »

Might be relevant too:

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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Climate Change and Climate Skeptics/Deniers

Post by Kim O'Hara »

tatpurusa wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:42 pm
Might be relevant too:
[video]
Might not, either. Your source is an anonymous blogger.
Try NASA instead - https://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/
(If you don't like NASA, I can suggest other sources, all far more reputable than any anonymous blogger and (importantly) evidence-based rather than :alien: or :spy: based.)

:jedi:
Kim

tatpurusa
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Re: Climate Change and Climate Skeptics/Deniers

Post by tatpurusa »

Kim O'Hara wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:59 pm
tatpurusa wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:42 pm
Might be relevant too:
[video]
Might not, either. Your source is an anonymous blogger.
Try NASA instead - https://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/
(If you don't like NASA, I can suggest other sources, all far more reputable than any anonymous blogger and (importantly) evidence-based rather than :alien: or :spy: based.)

:jedi:
Kim
OK. The question is: are those charts real and authentic or not. The source does not matter.
If you can prove they are fakes, allright, do it, one-by-one!!

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Climate Change and Climate Skeptics/Deniers

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

tatpurusa wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:07 pm
Kim O'Hara wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:59 pm
tatpurusa wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:42 pm
Might be relevant too:
[video]
Might not, either. Your source is an anonymous blogger.
Try NASA instead - https://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/
(If you don't like NASA, I can suggest other sources, all far more reputable than any anonymous blogger and (importantly) evidence-based rather than :alien: or :spy: based.)

:jedi:
Kim
OK. The question is: are those charts real and authentic or not. The source does not matter.
If you can prove they are fakes, allright, do it, one-by-one!!
The burden of proof is mostly on you here, you are the one making the assertion that anthropogenic climate change is some sort of hoax.

Here is the person who was hosting that video, for anyone who interested in his "unbiased science":
https://www.desmogblog.com/steven-goddard
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

tatpurusa
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Re: Climate Change and Climate Skeptics/Deniers

Post by tatpurusa »

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:11 pm
tatpurusa wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:07 pm
Kim O'Hara wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:59 pm

Might not, either. Your source is an anonymous blogger.
Try NASA instead - https://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/
(If you don't like NASA, I can suggest other sources, all far more reputable than any anonymous blogger and (importantly) evidence-based rather than :alien: or :spy: based.)

:jedi:
Kim
OK. The question is: are those charts real and authentic or not. The source does not matter.
If you can prove they are fakes, allright, do it, one-by-one!!
The burden of proof is mostly on you here, you are the one making the assertion that anthropogenic climate change is some sort of hoax.
Not so easy. This guy takes officially published charts and shows data preceding their publicly shown starting dates.
The question is: is he lying or not? I do not know.
If you are capable or have documented information about that he is lying or manipulating the data, please do show it.
Otherwise, if noone contradicts them with proven facts, it might be highly likely the case that he is right.

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Climate Change and Climate Skeptics/Deniers

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

tatpurusa wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:16 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:11 pm
tatpurusa wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:07 pm


OK. The question is: are those charts real and authentic or not. The source does not matter.
If you can prove they are fakes, allright, do it, one-by-one!!
The burden of proof is mostly on you here, you are the one making the assertion that anthropogenic climate change is some sort of hoax.
Not so easy. This guy takes officially published charts and shows data preceding their publicly shown starting dates.
The question is: is he lying or not? I do not know.
If you are capable or have documented information about that he is lying or manipulating the data, please do show it.
Otherwise, if noone contradicts them with proven facts, it might be highly likely the case that he is right.
All I need to do is read about him and his associations to form my own conclusions really. Again though, since he is the extreme minority of scientists writing on the issue, why would I need to try applying my layman's pov to the charts? This one guy (who just happens to be connected to a bunch of right wing, business connected think tanks wanting to avoid regulation btw) just happens to have the special charts that prove it's all a hoax, and the thousands and thousands of other scientists who have affirmed anthropogenic climate change are all in on it?

Not sure I need a weather man to know which way the wind blows in that case.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

tatpurusa
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Re: Climate Change and Climate Skeptics/Deniers

Post by tatpurusa »

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:21 pm
tatpurusa wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:16 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:11 pm

The burden of proof is mostly on you here, you are the one making the assertion that anthropogenic climate change is some sort of hoax.
Not so easy. This guy takes officially published charts and shows data preceding their publicly shown starting dates.
The question is: is he lying or not? I do not know.
If you are capable or have documented information about that he is lying or manipulating the data, please do show it.
Otherwise, if noone contradicts them with proven facts, it might be highly likely the case that he is right.
All I need to do is read about him and his associations to form my own conclusions really. Again though, since he is the extreme minority of scientists writing on the issue, why would I need to try applying my layman's pov to the charts? This one guy (who just happens to be connected to a bunch of right wing, business connected think tanks wanting to avoid regulation btw) just happens to have the special charts that prove it's all a hoax, and the thousands and thousands of other scientists who have affirmed anthropogenic climate change are all in on it?

Not sure I need a weather man to know which way the wind blows in that case.
Again, the question that matters is not where he is coming from, but whether the data he shows is authentic or not.
If you have relevant information proving that he is manipulating something on a case-by-case basis, please do reveal it.
Instead of trying to discredit the guy and ridicule him based on preconceptions please do prove that he is lying or manipulating.
If noone is able to counter him with documented facts, one should suspect that he is right.
I am not a client scientist, not even a meteorologist, so I do not know.

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Climate Change and Climate Skeptics/Deniers

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

tatpurusa wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:28 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:21 pm
tatpurusa wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:16 pm


Not so easy. This guy takes officially published charts and shows data preceding their publicly shown starting dates.
The question is: is he lying or not? I do not know.
If you are capable or have documented information about that he is lying or manipulating the data, please do show it.
Otherwise, if noone contradicts them with proven facts, it might be highly likely the case that he is right.
All I need to do is read about him and his associations to form my own conclusions really. Again though, since he is the extreme minority of scientists writing on the issue, why would I need to try applying my layman's pov to the charts? This one guy (who just happens to be connected to a bunch of right wing, business connected think tanks wanting to avoid regulation btw) just happens to have the special charts that prove it's all a hoax, and the thousands and thousands of other scientists who have affirmed anthropogenic climate change are all in on it?

Not sure I need a weather man to know which way the wind blows in that case.
Again, the question that matters is not where he is coming from, but whether the data he shows is authentic or not.
If you have relevant information proving that he is manipulating something on a case-by-case basis, please do reveal it.
Instead of trying to discredit the guy and ridicule him based on preconceptions please do prove that he is lying or manipulating.
If noone is able to counter him with documented facts, one should suspect that he is right.
I am not a client scientist, not even a meteorologist, so I do not know.
Do you understand the data, and how it "disproves" the data claims made by other sources? If not, then stop trying to draw me into a pointless debate.
I am not a client scientist, not even a meteorologist, so I do not know.
And yet, you chose to post something by someone who is a notorious climate skeptic, and act like it's all 'fair and balanced' because I personally can't disprove something which you yourself admit you don't understand the relevance of anyway..please.

I don't know how to disprove the science behind flat-earth theories either, all I can do is make an intelligent guess given what I have access to and what information is available to me.

So no, no one is owed a refutation of climate change skeptic science just for posting some charts. It'd be another thing if this guy had actual reputable people behind him (by my readinhe doesn't, he's part of a cadre of fairly well -known industry-connected denial people), but he doesn't. It'd be nice if we had someone with a background in climate science here that was interested in taking it on, but in lieu of that it's a bit silly to even debate it.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

tatpurusa
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Re: Climate Change and Climate Skeptics/Deniers

Post by tatpurusa »

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:36 pm

I don't know how to disprove the science behind flat-earth theories either, all I can do is make an intelligent guess given what I have access to and what information is available to me.
What you do not seem to understand is that here it is not about some obviously wrong weird theory like flat-earth.
Here it is not even about science, but about statistics and manipulations.
If the data he is showing is false or fake, it should be easy to prove if someone has access to relevant data.
I do not have that access, but would love to know if he is right or wrong.
This should be easy, it is not even about interpretation of facts, just proven statistical data.
Is there someone on this board with access to those relevant data?

Sorry, but attacking his affiliation or claiming the consense of authorities just do not cut it. Is his data authentic, or fake?

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Climate Change and Climate Skeptics/Deniers

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

tatpurusa wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:55 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:36 pm

I don't know how to disprove the science behind flat-earth theories either, all I can do is make an intelligent guess given what I have access to and what information is available to me.
What you do not seem to understand is that here it is not about some obviously wrong weird theory like flat-earth.
Here it is not even about science, but about statistics and manipulations.
If the data he is showing is false or fake, it should be easy to prove if someone has access to relevant data.
I do not have that access, but would love to know if he is right or wrong.
This should be easy, it is not even about interpretation of facts, just proven statistical data.
Is there someone on this board with access to those relevant data?

Sorry, but attacking his affiliation or claiming the consense of authorities just do not cut it. Is his data authentic, or fake?
Ok, if I need to disprove that, can you disprove the studies such as the ones mentioned here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surveys_o ... ate_change

If you cannot, you need to drop it, since neither your or I apparently can dispute these things on enough of a technical level to get anywhere.

Bottom line, you don't get to post fringe-y stuff from a known climate change denier here and then tell everyone else they need to "disprove" it in order to take issue. Again, I can read the writings of creationists (as another example) about how carbon-dating is inaccurate, they also have lots of charts to prove that carbon dating is a fraud, but I would not spend my time trying to disprove them because #1) I do not know anything about carbon dating, and #2) the vast majority of the scientific community does not even see their ideas as worth paying attention to, let alone refuting.

This is how I am making my determination. Now, how are you making your determination that listening to this particular person is important? Much in the same way I am, I suspect, and I'm sure you have political ideas in opposition to what you see as the politics of climate change.

That's all fine, but we aren't having a false "debate" here where we get to feign neutrality or demand that people "disprove" this or that.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

tatpurusa
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Re: Climate Change and Climate Skeptics/Deniers

Post by tatpurusa »

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:01 am
tatpurusa wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:55 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:36 pm

I don't know how to disprove the science behind flat-earth theories either, all I can do is make an intelligent guess given what I have access to and what information is available to me.
What you do not seem to understand is that here it is not about some obviously wrong weird theory like flat-earth.
Here it is not even about science, but about statistics and manipulations.
If the data he is showing is false or fake, it should be easy to prove if someone has access to relevant data.
I do not have that access, but would love to know if he is right or wrong.
This should be easy, it is not even about interpretation of facts, just proven statistical data.
Is there someone on this board with access to those relevant data?

Sorry, but attacking his affiliation or claiming the consense of authorities just do not cut it. Is his data authentic, or fake?
Ok, if I need to disprove that, can you disprove the studies such as the ones mentioned here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surveys_o ... ate_change

If you cannot, you need to drop it, since neither your or I apparently can dispute these things on enough of a technical level to get anywhere.
I do not want to disprove anything.
I just want to know, if the data he is showing is authentic or not.
Simple facts (like temperature records over years etc.) should not upset anyone.
But if he is lying, of course it should.
So is there anyone who can show the real, authentic data contradicting those he is using?
If not, one should assume that the the data he is referring to must be authentic.

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Climate Change and Climate Skeptics/Deniers

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

tatpurusa wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:10 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:01 am
tatpurusa wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:55 pm


What you do not seem to understand is that here it is not about some obviously wrong weird theory like flat-earth.
Here it is not even about science, but about statistics and manipulations.
If the data he is showing is false or fake, it should be easy to prove if someone has access to relevant data.
I do not have that access, but would love to know if he is right or wrong.
This should be easy, it is not even about interpretation of facts, just proven statistical data.
Is there someone on this board with access to those relevant data?

Sorry, but attacking his affiliation or claiming the consense of authorities just do not cut it. Is his data authentic, or fake?
Ok, if I need to disprove that, can you disprove the studies such as the ones mentioned here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surveys_o ... ate_change

If you cannot, you need to drop it, since neither your or I apparently can dispute these things on enough of a technical level to get anywhere.
I do not want to disprove anything.
I just want to know, if the data he is showing is authentic or not.
Simple facts (like temperature records over years etc.) should not upset anyone.
But if he is lying, of course it should.
So is there anyone who can show the real, authentic data contradicting those he is using?
If not, one should assume that the the data he is referring to must be authentic.
No, you need to stop trolling, which is exactly what you are doing by dropping a piece of controversial video, then claiming it must be "true" if no one on DW can refute it, and feigning neutrality on the subject.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

tatpurusa
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Re: Climate Change and Climate Skeptics/Deniers

Post by tatpurusa »

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:13 am
tatpurusa wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:10 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:01 am


Ok, if I need to disprove that, can you disprove the studies such as the ones mentioned here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surveys_o ... ate_change

If you cannot, you need to drop it, since neither your or I apparently can dispute these things on enough of a technical level to get anywhere.
I do not want to disprove anything.
I just want to know, if the data he is showing is authentic or not.
Simple facts (like temperature records over years etc.) should not upset anyone.
But if he is lying, of course it should.
So is there anyone who can show the real, authentic data contradicting those he is using?
If not, one should assume that the the data he is referring to must be authentic.
No, you need to stop trolling, which is exactly what you are doing by dropping a piece of controversial video, then claiming it must be "true" if no one on DW can refute it.
I am not trolling by any means.
I just would like to know if his data is real.
There must be someone who is able to show if they are not (at least I hope so)

tatpurusa
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Re: Climate Change and Climate Skeptics/Deniers

Post by tatpurusa »

jake wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:16 am
If you have questions about his selection of data sets, use a search engine. It took me two second to find other phds explaining Arctic sea ice prior to 1979.

Stay on topic. If you want to argue climate science take it to another thread. Any further discuss on climate science will be moved.
It took me a bit more time, but I have found it too.
The relevant chart (pre-1979 see ice levels) originates from an IPCC report from 1990.
See page 224 here:

https://www.ipcc.ch/site/assets/uploads ... report.pdf

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Dan74
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Re: Climate Change and Climate Skeptics/Deniers

Post by Dan74 »

tatpurusa wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:42 pm
Might be relevant too:
https://www.politifact.com/punditfact/s ... bal-warmi/

Also the quote from Edenhofer is taken out of context and completely misrepresents what he was trying to say. He's his actual interview:

https://www.nzz.ch/klimapolitik_verteil ... -1.8373227

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jake
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Climate Change and Climate Skeptics/Deniers

Post by jake »

Moving posts related to doubting of climate change science, denying climate change science, skeptical of climate change science. Whatever you wish to call it.
Please keep the posts here only related to climate change science, do not debate dinosaur-man cohabitation, flat earth, hollow earth, alien ancestry, how the garden of eden was in Jackson county, Missouri, etc. etc.

This thread is for discussion. Please do not post links without discussion, youtube videos without raising points and stating agreement/disagreement with arguments found in the video, etc.

PS, edited everyone's post here to change the topic heading, that's all

Simon E.
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Re: Climate Change and Climate Skeptics/Deniers

Post by Simon E. »

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:13 am
tatpurusa wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:10 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:01 am


Ok, if I need to disprove that, can you disprove the studies such as the ones mentioned here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surveys_o ... ate_change

If you cannot, you need to drop it, since neither your or I apparently can dispute these things on enough of a technical level to get anywhere.
I do not want to disprove anything.
I just want to know, if the data he is showing is authentic or not.
Simple facts (like temperature records over years etc.) should not upset anyone.
But if he is lying, of course it should.
So is there anyone who can show the real, authentic data contradicting those he is using?
If not, one should assume that the the data he is referring to must be authentic.
No, you need to stop trolling, which is exactly what you are doing by dropping a piece of controversial video, then claiming it must be "true" if no one on DW can refute it, and feigning neutrality on the subject.
Hang about..I’m not having that. I accept the fact that climate change is real, disastrous,and man made, but to dismiss the views of those that disagree as “trolling” is cheap and amounts to a variety of meta discussion. I think Tatparusa is backing a dodgy horse, but that doesn’t give anyone the right to doubt his intentions.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.

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jake
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Re: Climate Change and Climate Skeptics/Deniers

Post by jake »

What views, Simon? What disagreement? Tapurusa never expressed any. He was, by his own admission simply asking about the data.
tatpurusa wrote:I just would like to know if his data is real.
There must be someone who is able to show if they are not (at least I hope so)
Why might someone think this is trolling? Well, for that we have a cartoon. Tatpurusa says he wasn't trolling and posted that he found a source for the data. Asked and answered. I moved the posts here to clean up the Greta thread.

Image

tatpurusa
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Re: Climate Change and Climate Skeptics/Deniers

Post by tatpurusa »

jake wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:04 am
What views, Simon? What disagreement? Tapurusa never expressed any. He was, by his own admission simply asking about the data.
tatpurusa wrote:I just would like to know if his data is real.
There must be someone who is able to show if they are not (at least I hope so)
Why might someone think this is trolling? Well, for that we have a cartoon. Tatpurusa says he wasn't trolling and posted that he found a source for the data. Asked and answered. I moved the posts here to clean up the Greta thread.
This is all nice, but the reason I asked if his data was real, is that in the case that they are, he does have a valid point.
At least in the one case where I found the IPCC source for the chart he uses in the video his data seems to be real and not manipulated.
Could someone find the source for his other charts?
Or could someone demonstrate that he had manipulated those data?

Simon E.
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Re: Climate Change and Climate Skeptics/Deniers

Post by Simon E. »

Ok I’ll rephrase. I don’t think asking for clarification of the interpretation of data is in itself trolling. Even if you suspect the other person interprets data in a very different way to the you favour. If Tatparusa is trolling then Kim could be accused of the same thing as he posts about those issues more than anything else and assumes agreement, and gets cross if he doesn’t get it.
Just to be clear I agree with him on this issue, and I don’t think he is trolling.
But there is always a danger of being misunderstood if you join a forum for discussion of one topic but spend your time posting about everything else.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.

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